BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: George Harwell on September 21, 2016, 03:11:32 PM
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With the B20 blend of biodiesel becoming more prevalent I decided to dig a little deeper. There are multiple reasons for the blend and one is to provide lubrication qualities lost by reduction of sulphur over the last 10 to 15 years. Another is the $1.00 per gallon tax incentive provided by the federal government to the oil companys. My research led me to CUMMINS website where I was shocked to discover my ISC engine is not certified for B20 biodiesel use. I fired off an e-mail to CUMMINS and got the results yesterday. The ISC 350 in my 03 Monterey was built in August 2002 and is not certified for bio blend B20. Furthermore they made it clear that CUMMINS does not endorse the use of additives. I use Stanadyne twice a year around the time the oil companys do their seasonal change. My coach has 126,000 miles and the engine hasn't been touched by CUMMINS so I feel fortunate. I have had concerns about biodiesel use so will have to spend more time searching for truck stops with B15 or less blend. Another recommendation from CUMMINS was to always carry spare filters.
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George, this is big problem and what I'm told to change engine fuel filter at earlier
Service times. The Bio fuel replys on higher engine temps to work correctly and with a
motorhome that only uses 35% of its power with the big engines ( ECM readout provides
percent of avaible h.p. used ). Kinda hard to work your engine. Basic changing engine fuel
filter and keeping one extra filter on board. What I have found that will help reduce Bio fuel
in the fuel system and fuel filter is called 911 that one quart will treat 100 gallons of fuel
for around $ 8.00 and has bought power back and 2 mpg. Very good subject that needs
attention from many. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Thanks Dave, always good to guidance from an expert. There's loads of info on the Internet, some true and some not so I rely on CUMMINS for the truth.
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George,
Where are you finding =< B15 biodiesel? Best I've been able to locate is B18 (Loves). Also, what is your reference source?
Thx, Steve
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Steve, the Pacific Pride station across from the scales in Ashland Oregon has B20. This is right off of Interstate 5 at exit 19 on the west side of freeway.
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Steve, I go to the major truck stop websites such as Flying J, Loves, Petro, T/A, Valero, etc. to do a fuel price search by state. The results usually include the amount of blend along with the fuel price. It is harder to get information on the privately owned truck stops but Roadys is one that I found. Keep in mind, the information is available, finding it is challenging and time consuming as I am not highly skilled with computers. There are several good sources of information and Wikipedia.org is really good at explaining the facts. I found a lot of trade associations, state government, federal government and forums that cover biodiesel, especially the tax incentives by the state and federal governments to the oil companies. While being personal opinions there is a good forum on FMCA if you search for, Biodiesel impact on all engines. In my opinion this is being driven by the GREEN ENERGY movement while totally disregarding the damage it can cause. Steve, I feel like I'm in quicksand with no lifeline in sight.
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Our Bio source is primarily from soybean esters and that was what was focused on here. What they did is went to the field and sampled petroleum based ULSD petroleum based stock and the Biofuel that would be blended in. They found the following...
Property ULSD Biodiesel
TX FL MD MN
Initial Water PPM 107 363 474 594 361
Sat. Water PPM 153 1829 1971 1574 1738
Partic. MG/L .5 5.5 23 6 7
What is clear to me is that the petroleum based ULSD is by far better raw fuel stock for both water content and particulate content. The Bio samples, because they are a single random samples in no way represent any worst case as to how bad these properties can get. In general in the bio-stock you can expect to have 5 to 15x the water concentration and 10 to 20 times the particulate level. The problem does not stop there because the bio-stock has much more affinity to absorb water in all the other phases of transportation and storage so these are best case raw stock numbers. The expected problems that are created by the bio-blend are outlined in the paragraph below where I note the conference paper.
What this all means to us in defense, is that we need as best we can in our travels, to plan our fuel stops and avoid B20 or other higher blend levels whenever we can. It is particularly important if you are storing your coach for a longer period of time in a humid area. My east coast side of the country travels this summer, fueling along I81, I was dismayed to see Flying J and Pilot were only selling B20. I pulled out of those stations and I am trying to buy just Chevron fuel which I have yet to see a Bio Blend level sticker on and I have verified several times that they are are not blending Chevron diesel with bio-stock, at least in my area.
Because of the water absorption issues and the particulate issue you can anticipate that the need for filter changes will happen sooner, but more importantly if you have to use B20, you will have more water available sitting in all of your fuel system due to the nature of the beast that can grow algae in the tank or damage parts. I think the over the road truckers whose rigs do not sit will have less of a problem with the water absorption issues then us RV folks but they will see more filter changes in general. A fuel that has an affinity and a capacity to absorb more water is a problem that our filtration and engine fuel system has not been designed to accommodate....so as with other things in life we need to manage it as best we can.
American Filtration & Separation Society Annual
Conference, May 19-22 (2008) Valley Forge, PA
The biodiesel molecules indeed have very high affinity to water though, as can be seen
from the water concentration analysis. The dissolved water concentration for diesel fuel
is typically in the range of 30 ppm to 180 ppm. Biodiesel does dissolve more water, over
300 ppm, and this is not a surprise considering the nature of those ester molecules, which
are more polar than petrodiesel fuel molecules consisting mainly of hydrogen and carbon
atoms. What’s more interesting is that, when biodiesel is mixed with free water to reach
phase equilibrium for water saturation in the fuel, 2.5-5 times more water is dissolved
depending on the source of the original biodiesel, as shown in Table 1. This is important
because we normally pay attention only to free or emulsified water filtration, but the huge
increase in water solubility in neat biodiesel compared to ULSD can also be a major
concern. The existence of such dissolved water can promote biodiesel hydrolysis to break
down the fuel molecules, which will raise the fuel’s surfactancy due to the formation of
carboxylic acids; it will also promote bacteria growth and fuel oxidation, and possibly
affect the fuel combustion and cause corrosion problems. The separation of significant
amount of dissolved water will redirect fuel filter design in practice. However, all these
problems could be mitigated by using biodiesel blend with relatively small blending ratio.
The challenge to avoiding major water ingression to biodiesel therefore lies in the
operational chain of fuel storage, shipping, handling and blending before the blended fuel
is used to power an engine.
Ed back again...I was also looking at issues beyond contamination, this is info on blending. This info comes from a Bio-Diesel Handling And Use Guide available in PDF form on the web. When it is labeled B20 are you pumping B20? That relies on many other factors and diligence and training of the fuel suppliers...This line gave me pause..."Biodiesel is heavier, so it may stay, unmixed, at the bottom of the tank."
It is not assured that the biodiesel component, which has a different specific gravity then petroleum based diesel was well mixed and the colder the temperature the harder it is to get the blend methods to work. Biodiesel is heavier and more viscous and it requires vigorous agitation to blend it. They note if added to the bottom of the tank it will sit in a layer, if added to the top of the tank it will sink to the bottom and make a layer. It requires vigorous agitation to create the final blend. Beyond the water, contamination, there is the blending problems that when you pull to the pump and it says B20, am I pumping B5 or B40 right now?...not sure I would say. Obviously most of us will have to pump B20 at some point, just do the best you can to manage how much of it you use, which is what I am doing, especially when the coach is going to sit. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Thank you Ed for your most informative article. As I have suspected for some time now we really have to do some homework to find good fuel. Due to the introduction of biodiesel I will be dropping my oil change interval to 10,000 miles. So now that I am getting less mpg with less power and changing oil more often begs the question, is it really worth it.
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George,
I am not sure that the use of bio blended diesel should have any affect on engine oil change intervals. I have not seen that come up. The raw bio stock has about 8%-10% less energy per gallon then the petroleum based stock. The way they arrive at the 2% lower energy and mileage per gallon of fuel is based on the blend ratio of 20%, the lower the blend level the less you lose and the less water accumulation and particle accumulation you will have in the system which is better...... just manage it and know less is better if you can get it. The only change to make beyond that is consider fuel filter changes sooner then you might change them without bio-blended fuel especially if running B20 consistently. How often is really up in the air...as Dave points out carrying spare filters just in case.
Dave,
Regarding 911, that product as I understand it is a rescue product for dissolving ice that is frozen on the filter face to get you going if you ran into an ice blocked filter problem or gelling. I think it must have methanol or some component that combines with water that will then end up going through your engines fuel injection system, which may not really be a good thing except in an emergency.
The idea of the primary filter is to trap all the water it can, that is both emulsified or separated in the fuel, and protect your fuel system by trapping it elsewhere. I think 911 basically would turn off your water filtration by converting water to another chemistry that the filter face will pass. Neither Cat nor Cummins endorse these fuel additives but for emergencies or algae growth they are necessary.
I'm not sure about using 911 preventatively, nothing really removes bio diesel from the fuel. It may make a filter last longer, but if it does that by releasing and sending more water through the engine fuel system, is that really a good thing? I think it is good question to ponder, I certainly do not have the answer...
Later Ed
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Ed, you are correct in one aspect. Understand that Bio Fuel thickens at filter same a fuel jelling,
What Product 911 is doing is allowing fuel to pass the fuel filter. This is why Early change with
fuel filter and carrying extra fuel filter on board is recommend. I do not plan on getting into debate
over subject because there is a ton of information both Pro and Con use of Bio Fuel, what I will
Tell you cummins , Caterpillar , Mercedes. Will not offer any brand of aftermarket additive to
The problem other than cannot run bio fuel over 8 to 10%. You indicate 911 will not do any good
however yes it is doing very much good increased h.p and increased fuel milage basic back to
Before bio starting out of the window engine mfg spec's. Going last step cutting open fuel filter
That had restricted fuel flow as diesel fuel jelling on 90 DEG F and pretty much can come to your own thoughts. Again Ed yes the 911 is for diesel fuel jelling and not passing through fuel filter and
Yes this is what Bio fuel does to diesel fuel filters. Caterillar made statement very clear change
fuel filter at eariler service periods. Very good subject and great input Ed but this 911 Is doing
The job that it is made for to cutting wax that prevents good fuel flow through and plan to keep
using. Finding fuel other than 5 to 20% is here to stay.Dave AthertonRetiredCat Mechanic
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Dave, according to CUMMINS the oil change intervals may be adjusted as the oil can be diluted by biodiesel. Their research found that pure diesel left no residue in the combustion chamber where as biodiesel leaves a minute amount that can migrate to the oil pan. I was advised by CUMMINS years back to carry spare filters but was never advised of the oil dilution potential. Visited with my CUMMINS shop this morning and he printed off 55 pages of CUMMINS service bulletin 3379001 dated 28 August 2013 last updated 25 May 2016 titled Fuels For CUMMINS Engines. While another CUMMINS website did not include the ISC as B20 compliant this service bulletin clearly states on page 25 table 5 that the ISC CM554 is acceptable up to B20. I called CUMMINS customer service earlier today and was informed that my engine was not approved for biodiesel so I challenged that and she put me on hold to consult higher authority. Good news, they had an internal document that included the ISC as B20.Cummins recommends Stratapore media fuel filters. I have always used their Fleetguard filters so feel good there. It is harder to filter water from biodiesel than plain petroleum diesel so it makes sense to use the best filters available. Another caution is to avoid long term storage with biodiesel. One page advised no longer than 3 months and another 6 months so take your pick there. I normally park for the winter with a full tank 1 Dec and depart 1 Apr. and have never experienced a problem. Now back to the root cause of most problems brought up by Dave. It's WATER. You have to keep the water from getting beyond the filters. Thanks to Dave and Ed for their most valuable input.
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George, thanks for the come back.as I mention on my post there is a ton of information both
pro and con. I'm like you because Caterpillar has also 25 or more pages and main concern to
Keep the Bio fuel moving through fuel filter and to use injection fuel cleaner off and on. They
are talking also of use different micron secondary fuel to higher micron. Again there is a ton
of information any way you might like. At present I am using 911 and is working great with
Increased power and milage. With your cummins with the CAPS fuel injection your secondary
fuel filter is 10 micron and passing Bio Fuel through fuel filter has a big plus because Caterpillar
secondary is 2 micron and will start pulling restriction sooner than the service due date. Been
around extreme cold weather operations with Caterpillar Diesel engines and with today's fuel
Wax or Parafin fuel jelling up at 10 above zero with blend 50/50 number 1 & 2 and use of 911
Does it job keeping fuel flowing through fuel filter. It what each choice one makes ,what is right
The biggest concern is fuel starvation to injection system and that starts at secondary fuel
filter. Thanks again Dave
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Part 1 Of The Bioblend Problem And Solutions:
Background:
I learned quite a bit about the bio blend diesel fundamental fuel problem yesterday, some of the background, and what is being done to accommodate the needs of bioblend filtration. I obtained this insight from Parker Racor filter media engineering who is the leader in this field. Their whole business is filtration in water, medical, food, industrial, marine, and over the road vehicles etc. They have research facilities worldwide and deal with worldwide fuel issues of which bioblend is just a segment. I was told that Cat is one of their best customers and that a lot of the yellow painted filters and Cat yellow boxes are built by Racor for Cat and shipped to them so that is a good thing for both those business partners.
The Problem:
The problem started with the introduction of low sulphur fuel. The sulphur offered lubricity and that sulphur removal process stripped some additional lubricating fuel components which was compensated for by adding surfactants. The surfactant package used added back lubricity. Surfactants in general act as detergents, wetting agents, emulsifiers, foaming agents, and dispersants or combinations of these properties.
Years after the sulphur was reduced the Bio Blends were introduced into the mix which by their nature adds more moisture into the fuel mix. The problem is that the surfactants involved tend to emulsify the water and by their chemical nature cling to the surface of the minute water droplets and keep them dispersed. In essence many more tiny droplets that do not settle out and disperse and can form a milky cloud in fuel if the fuel mix is agitated. In general the more bio in the blend the more water in the fuel.
The filter medias that worked well on water droplets from petroleum based diesels are less than 80% effective at best for emulsified water and lose capacity quickly as the fixed capacity media traps water. That happens because the water droplets being trapped are not large enough to combine, settle out, and drop into the bowl like in the old days with petroleum based diesel without the surfactants that were added. While you need the lubricating qualities of the surfactants, we would be better off without them from a water contamination viewpoint.
So that is the source of the problem, which is more water that is now harder to extract. What it means in real life is the media surface traps the water at some efficiency and as it does the capacity to absorb water is constantly consumed. The more water, the more filter absorbing capacity that is used, and it is variable depending on the water level in the fuel. As the water absorbing capacity of the filter is consumed the water that passes on toward the secondary filter is constantly increasing and that is designed primarily to block particulates so it will head to the fuel rail. So we may start with 80% removal efficiency but may be running with 20% efficiency right at the moment and we do not know it. All we can do is manage the bioblend level, try and not have bioblended fuel in the tank if you are storing the coach for a few months, and change the primary filter more religiously then you might have.
So what is still needed is a way to get the harmful water trapped and keep it out of the fuel rail. I will do another segment in the next day or two about filter media, hopefully getting us onto the same page regarding what is the best filter solution will be, and where we are with that at present.
If you have interest, this link is a good page, with an excellent video you can play, regarding filter media, the diesel fuel issue and what is involved.
http://www.racornews.com/single-post/2014/09/11/Racors-Aquabloc-Filtration-Media-Its-Complicated
Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Ed, again many thanks for your contributions to this forum. Your articles are well written and very informative as I didn't know much about biodiesel. Looking forward to your article on the filtration.
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Been reading a lot about fuel filtration and discovered CUMMINS has developed a new filter media known as NANONET that is much superior to the Stratapore media filters. These new filters capture 98.7 percent of particles as small as 4 microns. The Stratapore media filter I use, FS 19551 fuel/water separator, is rated at 10 microns. NANONET filters do not absorb water like the old cellulose media therefore have a longer lifespan. The bad news for me is there is not a NanoNet media filter yet available to replace my FS 19551. Worked with Southern Plains CUMMINS here in Oklahoma City and found several fuel filters with NanoNet media so they are becoming available mainly for the high pressure fuel systems used in the newer engines. I will have to continue using FS 19551 but have decided to move my change intervals to 5,000. I have to correct a statement I made earlier about CUMMINS position on additives. CUMMINS does recommend an Addative produced under the name FLEETGUARD CC 2588 in a 1 pint bottle that treats up to 50 gallons and can be purchased at your CUMMINS service centers. For the Cat engine operators Dave is the expert you can depend on.
On a side note I have a friend with a newly purchased Mercedes Benz powered Motorhome that is limited to B5 and another with a 2015 John Deere tractor limited to B15. Do you have other diesel powered vehicles that may be affected?
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George,
Thanks for the info. However, I wonder if the MB powered RV company provides a list of locations where one can obtain B5. Even B15 can also be tough to find. Loves targets B15 or less but the key word is targets, but no guarantees. IMHO the engine mfgrs need to better address the reality that Bio is here to stay and asking the consumer to limit the amount used is a cop-out.
Steve
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Steve and George, good morning I have printed out and sent Tim Bently to post for factual Data
Files that he is setting up for all members. What I have Caterpillar Bio Fuel and Caterpillar engines.
I have printed 14 pages off my Cat program. What I can say to all members that have Caterpillar
Engines, the sky is not falling and information is clear on this. I mentioned earlier Dave was not going
to get into any debate on this subject but will provide engine Mfg. direction ( which is Caterpillar ).
and ( Cummins older ISC & ISB and ISL engines of which have Cummins software Insite ). Again
There is lots of information both pro and con for each to make up his or her own mind what is
best for there engine. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Has one investigated any possible effects of B20 (or whatever blend you have to use) and it's affect on the other diesel systems in our Beavers, namely our diesel generator fuel filter/engines, or the Hydro/Aqua-Hot systems fuel filter/burner orifice?
If B20 is/could cause concern/issues with our Cat or Cummings main engine fuel filters, should we be concerned, to some extent, for our generator and Aqua-Hot systems also?
The same question arises as to any diesel additives that we add to the main tank for the Cat/Cummings, since that additive also then feeds our coach's other diesel systems.
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Dave, I use Clear-Diesel before storage and Diesel Kleen on the road. I'm a fan of Power Service products, of which your 911 I believe is one. But neither of mine are anti-gel, etc. Pacific Pride informs me that that is part of most diesel suppliers' fuel during cold seasons anyway.
What I'm wondering is when a product like Diesel Kleen says it "removes water", where is it removed to? Any idea how that works? The company has been very customer-helpful in the past... I reckon I could ask them that question.
Not to hijack the previous poster's question, because certainly Aqua-Hot and Onan may have opinions regarding 20% Biodiesel.
-Joel
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Joel, I will answer briefly main problem with Bio Fuel is in mid range engines and down.
The bigger engines produce enough heat to suspend to Bio fuel through the secondary fuel
filter, smaller hp engines do not produce enough heat and Bio Fuel hangs in the secondary fuel
filter. This is where the loss of power and fuel milage comes into play. You are using Power Service
products and the 911 is a anti-jell that keeps the fuel moving through secondary fuel and Power
Service also provides injector cleaner to run off and on in the fuel system. Basic the information
that I sent Tim from Caterpillar will reinforce that statement. With all the hype about Bio Fuel
from repair stand point nothing major has resulted with Caterpillar or Cummins.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Part 2 Of The Bioblend Problem And Solution:
Just to step back for a moment and summarize where we left off... In my earlier posts we saw that the raw materials to be used as blend stock, bio ester vs petroleum based, the petroleum based diesel was far superior for low water content, as much as 15 times lower for saturated water. So with the soybean based esters there is more water, and what is problematic is its affinity to absorb more water. The problem is compounded in that the surfactants involved tend to emulsify the water and by their chemical nature cling to the surface of the minute water droplets and keep them dispersed.
Unlike petroleum based diesel fuel which tends to agglomerate the water into large droplets that end up at the bottom of the prefilter bowl, the blended fuels no longer have that property.
Some of the bioblend water will cling to the filter face, some will escape through the filter to the fuel rail, and as the filter media absorbs or holds some of the water there is no longer that surface available so you are continually diminishing the ability of the prefilter which may start at 70% efficiency for small water droplet removal, it is being constantly diminishes dictated by the water levels in the fuel.
So we can no longer control the water level in the fuel and we can no longer effectively filter it out. That is where most of the current fuel primary filter technology is today. You have excellent fuel filtration for particles today, George brought up Nanonet but this is secondary filter technology, mostly aimed at particle wear issues. Cat makes one of the finest fuel secondary filters on the market, best beta and particle capture rates all the way down to 2 microns. I am a big fan of this filter and Dave I am sure is also. We really do not have a secondary filter problem, they do the job very well today. The primary filter has the job of extracting the water, and removing large particles to protect the flow rates of the secondary filter. High capture rates of 30 or10 micron media is where the primary filter design has operated. It is really too bad that that Cat does not focus research on primary filtration design which for the most part is left up to the OEM vehicle designer to choose, like Beaver did.
The net of all this we need a filter that is specifically designed to extract the emulsified small droplets of surfactants combined with water that has enough capacity to handle the vastly increased water load in the fuel.
Some good info from Filtramax:
This is the most misunderstood area of diesel filtration. There are a variety of technologies of water removal filtration systems:
Polymer: Most “water filters” are polymer based water-blocks. Polymer is used in diapers. The polymer powder turns to a solid gel mass when water is introduced to the element. The filter is now into bypass offering no further protection. If you have a large amount of water, you will require cases of these elements. (waste of time and money)
Absorption: The second most common removal media is absorption elements. These elements are effective at capturing and storing water in the media – measured in pounds or gallons of water removal. The elements must be disposed of and replaced with new filter media as they reach their limit.
Coalescing: The best water removal technology is to coalesce the very fine water droplets (some as small as .2 µm) on the fibers of the media. The media is hydrophilic and holds on to the small droplets until these droplets begin to meet each other on the fibers to form larger droplets. The larger droplets then fall to the bottom of the filter housing and can be automatically or manually drained away. The media is long lasting – up to 4 years – if protected upstream from particulate.
Diesel Pest: Diesel fuel tanks can become contaminated with micro-organisms (bacteria, yeasts, fungi and algae) every time the tank is filled or ventilated.
Micro-organisms can only survive, grow and multiply in the water phase of any medium. Water phases develop during storage and transport, particularly when damp air inside the tank condensates.
Microbiological contamination can have very serious consequences, resulting in a loss of diesel quality. The by-products of micro-organic metabolism block filter elements, water separators and injection pumps. The material of the tank walls and pipes can also be severely damaged. Corrosion is further accelerated by water-soluble salts and hydrogen sulphide, a by-product of metabolism.
Water concentration is the decisive factor for microorganism growth, and accordingly any strategy aimed at combating diesel pest must start by reducing the amount of water in the fuel. This can be achieved by implementing continuous fuel and oil treatment to prevent the water content from rising above 60 ppm.
Ed back... I noted in my mind that 60PPM water concentration is probably a pipe dream but what is clear is that the tanks more than ever should be kept full. Over the road truckers that keep pushing fuel through the system will not absorb into a tank what an RVer would. If you can store your RV without bioblend or a low level bioblend, B5 or less, that would be great. One exception may be the desert southwest, given the very low humidity.
So where we need to go is to install a coalescing filter. The process of removing water has gotten more complex and you need a more complex filter designed specifically to handle this problem. Dave has mentioned filters gelling up and plugging and my guess is that is water and surfactant consuming the available filter media.
The coalescing filter process is basically a filter within a filter that all the fuel must pass through. The first filter is designed to break the emulsion by striping the surfactants from the water droplet and letting it pass on to the inner filter. Now the water is in a tiny droplet form that wants to cling to the surface of the extensive fiber network of the second filter that is designed to form large enough water droplets to accumulate and drop into the base of the filter. The filter capacity is maintained because the filtering process is designed to shed the water....self renewing if you will.
The OEM manufacturers have been worried about warranty claims and are keenly aware of the problem. This is an example of a coalescing filter for a Duramax engine that now comes standard, other OEMs are on the same page.
http://www.catching.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/7717_Rev_A_PFF50216_GM_Duramax_Diesel_Fuel-Filter.pdf
In that attachment you will notice that the water removal efficiency is rated at 99% efficiency and notes it is for all blends and types of diesel fuel. No other filter type makes any claim close to 99%. Parker Racor is the leading supplier of this technology at the moment but others are sure to follow. I will do a short segment next on where they are with making a coalescing primary filter available that is suitable for our RVs and what could be done now with today's technology.
As far as sending some additive through the system to strip what is there on a filter face, I am wary about sending what was not intended through the fuel rail. I wish the manufacturers like Cat and Cummins would do some real world testing and weigh in on these things with real measurements of what is happening to the fuel make up going out of the filter to the engine when you use one of these products. Data unlocks what is unknown and lets you understand how and if these products work without causing damage. I am not saying it is bad, I just do not know, but am wary...Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Joel,
I have been using Power Service Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement for years as well. Both have +Cetane Boost, clean injectors and provide lube for fuel injector components. I also carry an 8 ounce bottle of FPPF Fuel Power additive that disperses water. Haven't had the occasion to use the FPPF for years but the stuff works well.
As for bio diesel or cold weather gel the PS Supplement is suppose to take care of that.
Mileage wise using the PS product we seem to get a bit better mileage. No one believes it but on our new to us Country Coach Magna we have gotten 8-8.3 mpg since we traded for it last year, and using the PS product. All of this is documented on the Silver Leaf as well as checking mileage manually filling up to the tank neck fill up to fit up. On both coaches I have found the Silver Leaf very accurate in terms of gallons used. As long as there is no fuel used by the furnace or Genset it is pretty much spot on on fill ups.
We got 9-9.5 on the PT we traded for the CC, using PS products.
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I did tell you guys........
The additive I use is the Power Service Diesel Kleen. You can get it a Pilot/Flying J or any truck stop. In our neck of the woods I get it at North Forty, formally Big R. When it is on sale it is about half the price as truck stops. It's $12.95 for 80 ounces, i think.
I usually fill up at a half tank and pour in 16 ounces of PS.
Has anyone had an issue with the Silver Leaf, 2000-2003 vintage, reporting wrong info?
As for the FPPT, that stuff totally disperses water. I assume it absorbs and flows through the system with fuel. I was pretty amazed at the results when a trucker told me about it.
Headed to BCS on the 9th for Danny to straighten out the AV mess that Innovative Coach Works in Junction City sold us.
I think I can still be a BAC member.......?
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Once a Beaver always a Beaver.
silverleaf is only as accurate at the sensors.
Come to BCS before we leave next week,
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Phil,
Like Keith said, "Once a Beaver always a Beaver". Any BAC member can always be a BAC member as long as they maintain an FMCA membership, no exceptions.
Since there has not been a new Beaver built since 2009, several BAC members have traded their Beaver in on a new coach of another brand, and they have all maintained their BAC membership as far as I know. This even includes one of the BAC officers.
Gerald
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Phil, Keith and Gerald,
(Off topic)
It is true! Even if you buy a relatively tiny gas powered motorhome the "Once a Beaver..." rule applies. We've got rally bars that hang almost to our knees. The last three were earned in the new "motorcabin", AKA " Ford squirrel". At two rallies, we were co-rally masters.
All of our long time Beaver friends continue to be as warm and welcoming as ever. They don't care what we drive!
(Back to topic)
In 10 years and 122,800 miles, I never used any additive of any type in our Monterey.... except one. Knowing I was going to not use the Beaver for a few damp Seattle area months, I got some "BioBor" from a marine supply. I don't know if it did anything or not.
Twice in the ten years I had to change fuel filters between normal, scheduled changes. I was never able to figure out what was clogging the filters. My guess is that additives would not have made a difference.
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Thanks to all for responding with opinions I totally agree with. At least the filtration experts are engaged and working to provide us with better water extraction. That is a win, win for us.
Steve, I agree with you and feel sorry for the folks buying coaches limited to B5.
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Part 3 Of The Bioblend Problem and Solution:
Doug, first let me address your comments. We are all different and we all bring our own skill sets to the table. My background is one of solving very complex problems in industry. I do not waste my time with opinions, there is data, pertinent article extraction, and discussions with leaders in the field regarding Biodiesel blend filtration problems and what we can expect. I use the data to make informed decisions and pass the references along.
My intent is to put the information out there and help BAC members understand the problem, and how they can best manage it. I had not seen any posting on effective filtration for Bioblended fuel that made sense, so I thought I would take it on.
The sky is not falling and bioblends are not a disaster, especially in low concentrations. In fact a 2% bioblend reduced metal wear rates by about 70% in a blind study over ULSD petroleum diesel. 2% bioblend has far superior wear rate reduction when compared to all the snake oil additives claiming to add lubricity, in fact it came in number 1. Power Service Diesel Kleen and Cetane Boost which seems to be a favorite came in 10th for wear reduction, hardly making any difference at all, while others made the fuel worse for wear properties. You only need a 2% bioblend to gain the lubricity enhancement, so if we can just keep the water and oxygen from damaging the fuel system, manage the blend level a bit, that would be perfect for now. If you live in the desert south west like Gerald and Steve Huber you probably will not have much of a problem with water absorption. If you live on the gulf or Pacific NW and store your coach for long periods then I would try and manage it.
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/76-speciality-forums/64-maintenance-fluids/177728-lubricity-additive-study-results.html
Precision metal parts like in our fuel systems have very little tolerance when it comes to water. Good reference here.
http://www.mycleandiesel.com/pages/ProblemWater.aspx
So my net of your comments is that you just want a certified mechanic to tell you what to do, so just read certified mechanics posts, it is just that simple for you.
If someone really has the solution regarding running and storing your coach with B20 that solves the water issue let us all know. If that solution is chemical additives, then how do they work, what is plugging the filter, and where does the plugged filter gunk and water go? If all the gunk and water you gathered out of the last 2000 gallons of fuel now gets sent through the fuel system so that you can unplug a filter rather then replace it, what are the damaging effects?
These are hard questions and I do not really expect that anyone really has the answers. I have looked at additive studies and beyond wear I have not seen anything regarding water handling. Without those answers, it is all blind faith, which is not in my make up.
I think everyone who is sharing knowledge and information in this post is doing their best to help. I applaud them all for all they share. In my opinion this is an excellent forum because of the varied knowledge base and participation. I'll move on and finish the filtration portion of this post....
The engineers at Parker Racor have been working on this issue for awhile as discussed. The best solution they have for us at present is one of enhanced capacity with their best Aqua Bloc filter media. It is not a coalescing filter but it buys you more miles without filter changes because it has more water capacity. It certainly would help if you have to run B20 a lot in a damp environment.
This link below has the info on the 700 series pump/filter head which accepts an R125 increased capacity filter which will absorb up to 3X more water. The 400 series manual pump version can also use this filter. If you upgrade your primary filter, I would go with one of these units and raise the position high enough to accommodate a higher capacity filter. If you can't do an R125 then an R90 version would probably be better then your current unit. These pump/head designs are excellently engineered units designed by Racor and eliminate all the earlier design issues of our older Wynn design. The electric pump version is double O ring sealed, and are replaceable continuous duty rated pumps. They do a nice cutaway view.
http://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Racor_Fuel_Filtration_-_700-Series-Priming-Pump_-_7631.pdf
It is the best design in a unit that I have seen that can be easily purged of air on the road by anyone called on to service it. I am told by Racor that these units are the most popular heads/filter set that they make, that are not dedicated OEM, for makes like GM Duramax. These heads would be the first place that a coalescing filter designed would show up for that is not OEM specific.
If you choose one of these units it looks like there would be a coalescing filter migration path sometime in the future. The hold up has been whether or not owners would pay more for a better filter, so it is a business process decision at the moment. I was told a coalescing filter will happen, just not sure exactly when.
It seems that ramping up to B20 is happening even on the east coast now, the problems will surface, the solution can then be justified by demand.... It would be much better if industry and government worked in concert on this....wishful thinking on my part.
Warranty costs fears are driving the OEM markets, maybe Cat or Fleetgard will offer something up in a coalescing filter and head for over the road. For now manage the problem as best you can, minimizing bioblended fuel if you have a choice, be careful to keep a bioblended fuel tanks full, especially when storing the coach. Plan on preventatively changing your fuel filters on schedule, and carry a spare. Enjoy your travels and manage this just like many other things in our lives..... Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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I feel fortunate to be able to access such and intelligent discussion and learn from others. These discussions are the reason I continue to Value my BAC membership. Thanks to everyone that takes the time to post their observations and opinions on topics that are important to us . Happy travels, Gary and Connie
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Gentleman, before we start in on the subject and let just post our thought and move on.
Dave has sent information to Tim Bentley on this subject off Caterpillar Service information
System where Tim has created a file for factual information from Dave and Caterpillar only.
Untill Tim gets everything up and running Dave will post some of information Bio Fuel and
Caterpillar Engines. First of all all Caterpillar Engine, 2006 and older ( all models ) can use
Biodiesel fuel and Biodiesel blends up to B20 and do nothing to engine. Caterpillar Engines
2007 and newer can use B20 Biodiesel fuel and BioDiesel blend with the exception of Cat
C-7 and Cat C-9 Biodiesel Fuel and Biodiesel fuel blend by using caterpillar diesel fuel system
Cleaner part number 343-6210 and Cat nozzle cleaner part number 304-7755 which the
Cat nozzle is needed to clean the ARD head. Can use Biodiesel fuel and Biodiesel blend to B15.
Cat recommends using SOS oil samples on all oil changes. Again the use of Cat primary
and secondary fuel filter is highly recommended for Caterpillar engines With Biodiesel fuel
and Biodiesel blends. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic