BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Tom James on May 02, 2021, 07:33:02 PM
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Hi,
2006 Patriot Thunder 525 Cat c-13 and Allison 4000 trans
I am in the process or replacing my coach batteries and removed the chassis batteries also. I have since re installed the chassis batteries and it will not start. The transmission pad does not light now, nor the check engine light. From what I have read, I could have blown a fuse in the transmission module. I cannot seem to be able to find the location of this module. I have removed the panel in the console below the shift pad and cannot find anything in there. Where else could this be hiding?
Thanks
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Tom,
This might help you out. http://beaveramb.org/forum/index.php/topic,7515.msg52715/topicseen.html#msg52715 Hope this helps.
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Thanks Frank,
I already read that one and it does not help. Mine does not have that panel in the battery bay. Still looking for the transmission control module.
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Tom
Are you sure you have all the battery cables back in the right spot ( check behind the battery box you wouldn't be the first one to drop one behind the bad and miss it)
Second check for online fuse holders tie rapped to the cable bundle at the batteries there should be one ten amp fuse for the engine ECM and another for the Transmission TCM.
Without power to the TCM the ECM will not get a neutral safety signal from the TCM and will not allow a start signal to the starter.
Is it possible you reversed a cable polarity or have one of the positive cables connected to the negitive terminal.
Can you get us a picture of the batteries and cable configuration.
Well do what we can to help
Eric
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Tom,
You may want to check the 200 amp fuses, Fred
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Tom,
Along with the other suggestions I would look at Battery voltage. The can go below 12+ volts quickly. Or you may want to try the boost switch to combine all batteries. Before I got a echo charger my chassis batteries would loose charge and the MH would not turn over without a jump box or the boost.
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Tom,
I’ve attached an image of the chassis battery connections for our 2006 PT.
Your TCM is located in the first pass-through bay, driver’s side ceiling next to the HWH leveling controller. It’s between the frame rails so you would need to take the ceiling down to access it. I don’t think that there are any fuses in the TCM but there are in the VIM. I’ve looked in all of the ‘normal’ places in our PT for the VIM and have yet to find it.
If you don’t have a check engine light when you turn the key on you probably don’t have power to the ECM. With the key in the run position, do you see any engine/trans information on your Aladdin system?
Scott
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Eric,
Thanks for your reply and help.
Here are a couple of photos of the batteries now. Also a photo of behind them. The red and black wires are for the old and new solar wiring. They are not hooked up yes as I have not installed the Coach batteries. I am afraid that I have inadvertently shorted something out and have blown a fuse somewhere. The transmission pad does not light, so I understand that there is a fuse in the tcu that could cause these problems. I just cannot find the tcu and have looked everywhere I can think of. I have to send these photos separately.
Thanks Again
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Scott,
The check engine light does not light and the Aladdin system does not come on at all. I crawled in the first pass thru bay and found the HWH levering controller, but no TCM. Or a VIM, I think that is what I understand has the fuses in it. I have looked everywhere I can think of with no luck so far.
Thanks for the reply and wish me luck!
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Tom, Did you look in the rear run box, I had a issue with my 06 PT that the run/start board had a short in it. I don't remember if the trans pad would lite up or not, but with the key on none of the lights in the rear run box would light up, pushed the board around and everything would light up. Just a thought on your issue.
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Tom
At the rear run board the large terminals at the bottom check to see if you have power to the bottom left one
If there is no power there move to the one to it's right if there is power on it check the reset able circuit breaker just above right next to the big boy solenoid.
Hope this helps
Eric
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Eric,
Are you talking about the ANL fuses? If so, they are all hot. If not, see the photo and let me know which terminals you are talking about.
Thanks
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Tom
Sorry Ive been looking at a schematic for a newer system .
Ok you have power to all of those ANL fuses next move up to the front electrical bay and see if we have power there
Can you get a picture of it for me
Check with the ignition key on to see if you have power to both sides of the run solenoid at the bottom of the buss bars in the front run board
If so check the top circuit breaker on the right hand buss bar it should be marked CB 21 engine ECM and have 12 volts at it .
Let me know what you find
Eric
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Tom,
It looks like your coach has the ‘early’ style rear run box and possibly the front run box as well. The difference is explained in your owner’s manual starting on page 252. Our coach has the late style front and rear run box, so the image of my battery setup is probably of little help.
I think that Eric was referencing the late and more common style run box.
Your TCM may also be in a different location, but here’s an image of the TCM location for our 06 PT. You’ve got to dig for it, it’s buried behind a rat’s nest of wires. The TCM, ABS, and Aladdin Bridge are all in that area. The VIM is also supposed to be in the same area, but I haven’t located it.
Also, your Aladdin system won’t work without house power.
Edit: the image label is supposed to be HWH, not HWN.
-Scott
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Scott,
Thanks so much. As they say "A picture is worth 1000 words". And I have not installed the new house batteries yet. Do you think that could be a possibility of my problem?
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Tom the coach batteries shouldn't effect the chassis operation
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Tom it must be past eight pm where you are and getting dark by now it's eleven thirty here so I'm going to have to call it a night and try to pick up in the morning .
Eric
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Thanks Eric
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Tom
Before car go much farther does your coach have a front and rear start switch in the service bay where the filters are.
If so is it possible the switch has been inadvertantly switched tongue off or rear start position.
The schematics I'm working from doesn't show one but that doesn't mean you don't have one.
Did you do the tests I described in post number 12 and what did you find?
Eric
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Tom, you are getting very good information from Eric. My suggestion first check check the 12 volt
Battery cable that is connected to starter. If you have power at that point than your problem is
located up front not allowing 12 volt power from key on/off switch to activate the opening of the neural safety switch which in turn not lighting or powering up the trans touch pad. The engine will start if
power is located at starter and a jumper wire with 12 volt power just touch small terminal on starter
solenoid, however nothing is going to activate the neutral safety switch as Eric indicated and no power
Key switch or touch pad on transmission. You should find at electrical panel up front there is no power going to the ECM on upper right side. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Tom
In the front electrical bay check for power at the following circuit breakers
CB 21 engine ECM
CB 22 XSMN ECU
CB 27 shifter PNL
If you have power at all of those with key on the next test is the fuses in the VIM ( vehicle interface module).
There is a small description of the VIM module layout in the alison 3000/ 4000 troubleshooting manual in the coach assist library
Look for page 735----737.
Also the 2006 wiring diagrams show an engine fuse panel somewhere near the engine compartment or maybe even in the rear run cabinet.
Eric
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In the front electrical bay, there is a box for the Allison transmission. Check the fuses in that box, especially if you do not have a neutral light on you gear box in the cockpit. There is a 5 amp fuse in that box which will not allow you to start.
This may have already been mentioned, but it was my problem at one point in time.
Roy Warren
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First thing,
I want to thank you all for your help. After talking to Eric, and looking in many places to try to find the VIM, I thought I should try the simplest solution. Eric mentioned something about wires dropping behind the battery. Well It did drop and I took it and moved it up to the top shelf where the house batteries are going to be installed. Turns out this wire was the power to the ignition buss panel in the rear run panel. Hooked it back up and all is well. Again, thanks to you all for the help.
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Good call, Eric! 👍🏻
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Tom,
Glad you got it figured out, I have done that 2 or three times and finally figured out to ty-wrap all the cables together that go to their respective posts and then take a picture with my phone, Glad I am retired, I hate batteries, Fred
Good Job Eric!