BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Jerry Emert on April 03, 2014, 12:23:18 AM
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Big newbie question here so have patience! Most of the leveling I've seen on coaches has the cylinders or legs come down and touch the ground. When demoing my new to me 2003 Patriot Thunder Lexington C-12, that didn't happen. After crawling around on the ground for several minutes both salesmen determined that the hydraulic system levels by pressing on the frame instead of the ground. Seems wrong to me. Is this how it works or are they playing me? My final inspection is coming up Monday so I'm frantically trying to soak up all the info I can. Thanks in advance.
Jerry
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Jerry,
Welcome to the club... Yes, the jacks land on a pad welded on top of axles. This system of leveling is commonly call the IDS system. I was not aware of any 2003 model with this type of leveling system. Anyway, mine has worked very well for 12 years, but recently develop some leaking problem on the two front jacks. Some BAC members have had problems with failing control units. Also, problems with the leveling brains that can be replaced with a newer style of unit.
Good luck with your final inspection.
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Jerry,
The leveling system that your coach has is a system that the SMC Corporation (owners of Beaver at the time) designed and had built by IDS. The jacks operate between the frame and axle. This design system was installed on virtually all of the 2001 and 2002 Patriot and Marquis coaches as well as the early production 2003 models until the stock was exhausted.
Parts for the system if you have a failure, can be difficult at best or impossible to find. However, there have been several fixes developed by club members or BCS (Beaver Coach Sales) that can correct most problems. The system was installed on many coaches, and failures are not common, but they can happen.
Gerald
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Thanks Karl, how can you tell if they are working or not?
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Jerry,
Welcome! One advantage of this system IMHO is that the coach sits low to the ground when leveled at a campground. Also the ECU checks every 15 min or so and auto adjusts if it goes out of level. My 01 Contessa has the system and it works well even though it sometimes made a bit of noise when retracting.
Steve
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Jerry,
The leveling system that your coach has is a system that the SMC Corporation (owners of Beaver at the time) designed and had built by IDS. The jacks operate between the frame and axle. This design system was installed on virtually all of the 2001 and 2002 Patriot and Marquis coaches as well as the early production 2003 models until the stock was exhausted.
Parts for the system if you have a failure, can be difficult at best or impossible to find. However, there have been several fixes developed by club members or BCS (Beaver Coach Sales) that can correct most problems. The system was installed on many coaches, and failures are not common, but they can happen.
Gerald
Thanks Gerald.
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chock one up for the salesmen! Thanks Steve
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Jerry,
When you press the power switch on the control panel to the on position, the yellow lights will go around in a circle testing the levelness of the coach (after you slides are out). After 30 seconds the light will be steady and then you can press the AUTO button on the control panel. Then the system will do a air dump for about 2 minutes. Then the jack will start a double down cycle until the coach is level. When level, the center (middle of the left, right, front, rear buttons) green light will come on steady.
I may have a copy of the manual if you need one. Hope this is helpful...
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Karl, I'm going to pick it up Monday. I'm sure I will have more questions then and in the following weeks. Thanks to all so far.
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I have had my @001 Contessa for a little over two years and my left rear jack is leaking. The only way these jacks can have new seals installed in them is to find a hydraulic shop willing to cut the cylinder to replace the seal then reweld them and reinstall.
I am going to the HWH factory in July and have the hydraulic jacks removed and the lines capped.
Then they will install an air leveling system using my existing air bags.
I didn't want to take the chance of opening these jacks up and keep having continual issues with them.
But many have had good luck for years with no issues, just not me of course! :o
Good luck and enjoy your coach!
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"Then they will install an air leveling system using my existing air bags."
Hope you're not motion sensitive? Air bag level will leave you with a floating coach. When one person walks around, the entire coach rocks. I would get motion sick.
I will add coach to ground hydraulics if the time comes when I can't get the old frame to axel hydraulics working.
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My 2000 Marquis has both air leveling and frame to ground hydraulic leveling. I usually use air leveling and virtually never use the hydraulic leveling system because of multiple reasons. The air leveling does not twist the coach as bad as the hydraulic system does, and this gives you less windshield problems. It is hard to tell much difference in movement inside the coach between air and hydraulic leveling. The air leveling system is simpler to use because it cancels and the coach airs up to ride height when the engine is started, no jacks to raise. Less maintenance issues from jack and hydraulic line leaks. No worry with jacks getting stuck in soft ground or damaging assault pavement. In short, I would not have a coach without air leveling.
Gerald
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I am not too worried about any motion with air leveling, I have lived on boats before and was always moving in some kind of direction.
I just want to have something if I happen to get an unlevel site now and then.......
haven't had any use of my hydraulic system this year at all due to leaking jacks.
And we have done fine with just removing the airbag air and lowering the coach!
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I know some are sensitive to the movement associated with air leveling, but it sounds like you wouldn't be one of them, LaMonte. We had a live-aboard cruiser before getting into land yachts, and experienced crossing the Columbia Bar, stormy San Juan anchorages, and rip-tide salmon fishing for many years. Moving to terra firma and a coach with jacks was okay and they helped stabilize in a big blow, but were a pain in the rear reliability and repair-wise, especially when they got stuck in the down position.
Our Beaver didn't come with them. We emulate Gerald's attitude, and if I had jacks I'd rarely if ever use them. Our HWH air system is easy to use and it works well. Since like us you are used to sea legs, I think your plan is spot on. To us, any motion from our moving inside the rig is practically imperceptible. To someone not used to their house moving, I can understand having the sense of stability jacks endow. Only in high winds, though, do we fret much, and that's only due to flapping slideout covers - bringing in windward slides fixes that.
One issue Gerald might offer input on is the auxiliary compressor associated with air auto-leveling. I'm not sure what HWH does in that dept. when they do the install themselves. Many factory installed pumps are subject to failure due to their location and quality. Gerald and others recommend certain ViAir compressors for the job of automatically maintaining level once attained. It might be something you'll want to discuss with HWH.
Joel
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The #1 reason we chose our Beaver over other coaches was because it has air leveling only. I have 2 replacement hips and crawling under our old coach to put blocks under the jack pads, and then doing it again to remove them, was just too hard on them. I went as far as drilling holes in the blocks so I could pull them out using an awning hook, but that didn't eliminate the crawling under to place them.
We would never buy another coach without air leveling. The rocking is not an issue for us. Its hardly noticeable.
Stan
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Karl, I'm going to pick it up Monday. I'm sure I will have more questions then and in the following weeks. Thanks to all so far.
Update and question: The dealer really didn't have there stuff together for delivery. The deal I made with them was that every major item had to be functional. They were really quiet at first and then told me that they had had technicians working on the hydraulic portion of the leveling system for two days and since the system was no longer in production they couldn't figure out what was wrong with it. They said they were trying to get someone from Monaco to help them out. I called and checked on their progress today and it seems that they are at a standstill. The salesman basically said that they weren't going to fix it.
I know that y'all basically said that the air is sufficient to hold the coach level for a few days. They said they aired it up and it lasted for 2 days. Now for the question, worse case scenario, what would it cost to fix the system, I know, you don't know whats wrong so hard to answer. I don't know anything about it but I'm assuming that the problem is affecting the whole system and it's not an easy one. Is there something in the system that someone not experienced on the IDS system might miss that would affect the whole thing?
I guess its not a deal breaker for me but I want to get something from them to make up for the loss of the system. Thanks in advance.
Jerry
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Jerry,
Beaver Coach Sales has a manual control electrical replacement system that they engineered if it is the controller. You can call them in Bend OR to get a price. If it were me I would have the coach converted to air leveling and the cost for that is around $7000 if I remember right. The HWH factory in Moscow Indiana has converted several of these coaches from IDS hydraulic leveling to an automatic air system. If the sellers would further discount the coach by that amount it may be worth your while. Check with HWH to verify what I have indicated here regarding price and application.
Later Ed
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Jerry,
Beaver Coach Sales has a manual control electrical replacement system that they engineered if it is the controller. You can call them in Bend OR to get a price. If it were me I would have the coach converted to air leveling and the cost for that is around $7000 if I remember right. The HWH factory in Moscow Indiana has converted several of these coaches from IDS hydraulic leveling to an automatic air system. If the sellers would further discount the coach by that amount it may be worth your while. Check with HWH to verify what I have indicated here regarding price and application.
Later Ed
Thanks Ed. It's my understanding that it has a double system, air and hydraulic. I've been told that the air system does level and keep the coach level all by itself. Am I missing something?
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Jerry,
Monaco probably knows very little about the SMC leveling system that was produced for Beaver by IDS. The only experts that I know of on that system are the people at BCS (Beaver Coach Sales). They have even designed and built a replacement control panel to convert the system to a manual leveling system if the automatic control module fails, because a replacement is no longer available. I think that the retrofit from automatic to manual is about $1200, but you should call them to be sure. Since I do not know what is wrong with the system, I can not be sure that is the problem, but I can not think of anything else in the system that a qualified mechanic could not readily repair. Sometimes, the automatic control modules just need to be reprogramed, but it is very difficult to find someone to do that.
Normally the air suspension will stay up for weeks if there are no leaks, but it will not level the coach without an air leveling system. A leveling system is necessary because many RV parks do not have level pads, and if you are just setting on your suspension, you will be as unlevel as the pad you are parked on, and believe me, some are really bad. In fact there is a park that I stay in sometimes in Las Vegas that has some pads that are so unlevel that the coach runs out of suspension travel before it levels unless I drive on axle up on wooden blocks before leveling.
If you get more information about the problem with the system, perhaps we can be of more assistance, but that is about all of the information that I can give you until I know the specific problem. If you want to talk to someone that knows the system very well, call BCS and talk to Ken Carpenter.
Gerald
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Jerry,
If the coach has both leveling systems, and the air leveling system is functioning properly, the coach will stay level for years as long as the batteries stay charged, because it will check the coach leveling about every thirty minutes and relevel it as necessary by use of the electric air compressor that is part of the system. However, air leveling on and 2003 Thunder is uncommon unless it was added by the previous owner. If you need to talk to someone for more information when you are looking at the coach, just call me.
Gerald
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Jerry,
To add a little to what Gerald is saying. The air leveling system that the coach has is for over the road application. Basically there are air valves that are mechanically coupled with rods to fixed chassis locations. As he coach moves and the body leans, or rises, or falls, the mechanical valves either add air to certain air springs or reduces air in certain springs to compensate. It is a nice dynamic system that consumes a fair amount of air as you travel down the road. When you stop, ignition turned off, compressor not running, and are just sitting, it basically serves no function. The air will slowly escape through minor leaks and the coach will eventually settle down to physical bumpers within the air springs.
The HWH system if added (and other coach years had them standard or as an option) it will actually take over when you are stopped and with a leveling computer send air or remove air dynamically into specific air springs to set the coach level within the range of the system capability. Like Gerald says it will check periodically, adjust, and generate its own air as needed. Most consider this a better system then the SMC IDS hydraulic system although that had some strong points also. The fact that it leveled frame to axle without going to the ground and once leveled it was solid and stable, those are the IDS strong points. It is difficult as you are finding to get support, parts, and repairs done is the down side.
If you buy you will need a leveling system and you will either have to go to Bend OR for a hydraulic system fix or go to Moscow Indiana to add an HWH air leveling system. I do not think this is the kind of issue that you should drive away from your dealer with without compensation and a plan.
Later Ed
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two control panels. Are these the leveling panels? Trying to attach photos!
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this
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That was a struggle! Well folks, what do I have?
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Jerry,
Looks like you have both system. My guess is that the IDS (SMC) system was replaced by the HWH. Not sure if you have HWH Active Air which incorporated both air level and computer control air ride systems. The tech should be able to see if the IDS is still usable. BTW, cost for the HWH air leveling only is $4,600.00 plus tax installed by HWH in Iowa.
Karl
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The build sheet says that it has "cushion air glide suspension," hydraulic leveling system and I just noticed on the back of the sheet Duel leveling system (air/hydr). Having never had a Class A before I'm pretty confused still and still dealing with the dealer after a full month has got my patience kind of thin.
They promised and documented on the buyers order that they would have every major system functional so I'm just trying to get them to live up to the deal. I think they are honestly trying so as long as y'all say that the air leveling is sufficient, I'm inclined to give them a pass. I'll make them pay for it somehow though. Thanks for all your responses so far.
Jerry
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Jerry,
You should be able to park off level and use the HWH panel to level your coach if it is working right. If the sheet you were referring to was a factory sheet then the HWH air system was factory installed which is good. The other good news is if the HWH system is not working then it should be relatively easy to get it fixed at the current dealer or another factory authorized HWH service center. HWH is still in business and that is a popular system.
Given that air leveling system is working then the IDS system is really optional and not all that important. If you had both systems available you would probably choose the air leveling system 99% of the time. I think if the dealer can demonstrate that HWH air leveling system and it works as it should then if you like the coach and the deal then I would not let the SMC IDS system hold me back. It would be nice if they documented what they think is wrong with the IDS system from all their trouble shooting, like the computer control panel is dead etc. so it gives you some idea where you are on that system.
Just one opinion....
Later Ed
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My HWH leveling control panel is only slightly different than yours. I'd check the HWH website for an owners manual, but it may be difficult to find there, or give them a call Monday for help getting a manual. You'll have a leg up when the dealer demonstrates it. It looks to me like the rig is using model 680. http://www.hwh.com/ml40256.pdf
If you get the coach, eventually you may get to Bend where BCS can inspect and advise as to the repair of your IDS hydraulics.
-Joel
Addendum: this may be yours: http://www.hwh.com/ml13985.pdf
When you press the AIR button twice, it will automatically level. After automatic, but not after manual, leveling, the system checks for absolute level status every half hour. If it's not level, a small auxiliary compressor turns on and inflates any low corner air bag until things are square again. You need to have the dealer demonstrate that that compressor works as designed; many of us have had to replace them with higher quality units after the originals fail, preferably with a model by ViAir.
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Thanks to you all. I've learned a lot and hopefully I'll be able to do whats best. I really like the coach and considering the work they have done to get it ready, I still think it's a pretty good deal price wise. I'll let you know what happens.
Jerry
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I have a 2001 Beaver Contessa and have the IDS hydraulic leveling system only.
Due to some jacks with leaks I am going to have HWH in Moscow, Iowa install an air leveling system in my coach in July.
They will remove the hydraulic jacks and cap and secure the lines reducing that weight. The control box for the IDS system will be replaced with the Air control panel.
The front living room slide operates from the same hydraulic reservoir and will continue to work for that.
They gave me a quote of $4922 to do this job and it will take 1-2 days. Hope you get it all straightened out......
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Karl,
The $7000 figure that I remembered was for the active air system now that I went back and looked at some prior posts. The standard air leveling system was the $4600 number you mentioned. Looks like that has grown to $4922....basically $5k.
Later Ed
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I have a 2001 Beaver Contessa and have the IDS hydraulic leveling system only.
Due to some jacks with leaks I am going to have HWH in Moscow, Iowa install an air leveling system in my coach in July.
They will remove the hydraulic jacks and cap and secure the lines reducing that weight. The control box for the IDS system will be replaced with the Air control panel.
The front living room slide operates from the same hydraulic reservoir and will continue to work for that.
They gave me a quote of $4922 to do this job and it will take 1-2 days. Hope you get it all straightened out......
Thanks,
I think the air only will be good enough for me if it works, and I think it does. I'll probably try to get the dealer to compensate me for it somehow. If I can talk to the tech I may be able to get an idea what the problem is. They didn't mention any leaks or anything so I'm guessing its going to be the control box. Granted I know nothing about it but it just seems logical. the control units seem to be available as noted in some of the above posts. we'll see what happens.
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2nd attempt at delivery tomorrow. Last two questions ... for now.
1. Worst case, considering no visible hydraulic leaks, ball park best guess, how much to fix the IDS system if parts were found?
2. When leveling do you dump the air first to make it level with the steps closer to the ground? Does it matter?
Thanks again.
Jerry
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Our coach has air leveling only. We don't dump before we level, as the act of leveling might have to reverse part of that. Also, there is a big warning sign on our leveling controls stating the slide outs MUST be OUT before leveling. Conversely, we always bring them in before switching back to travel mode.
Stan
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Jerry,
Even if you could find parts to repair the automatic operation of your hydraulic leveling system, it is very doubtful that you could find a qualified repair technician in your area. Since I have no idea what you would have to pay for the parts, if you could find them, the only price estimate that I can give you to repair the hydraulic leveling system is the $1,200 that BCS (Beaver Coach Sales) charges to convert the system to a manual hydraulic leveling system.
As for your question about dumping the air before leveling, that is the procedure that is used when hydraulic leveling, but not if you are using air leveling. The air leveling system will lower the high point on the coach by letting air out of the suspension until it is level. It will only add air to level the coach if the coach high point will not come down any more, then it will add air to the low point. That is why it is important that the electric compressor for the air leveling system to be operational, because it supplies the necessary air pressure to maintain the level condition of the coach while you are camped.
Another thing to remember is to extend the slides before you level and retract them only after the suspension is completely inflated back to travel height. In other words "slides out first and in last".
Gerald
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With my 06 Beaver Thunder I believe it has the HWH 2000 and they say do not dump before leveling, go from travel state to level. Pull into camp spot hit the level button twice and in a minute its level. It will level to the highest corner, they call it bi-axis, levels side to side then front to rear, if the right front is the high spot on the pad the right side drops and then the rear matches the front to level the coach. Only time I ever dump the air is when parking in storage, I know one thing if I try to go from a dumped state to the raised state the system gets all confused, have to go to travel then to raise.
I always level first and then run the slides out, there was or is a big thread over at IRv2 about just that. I always figured that it is better to be in a level state before running out the slides, especially the two big front room slides, procedure has worked fine so far.
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Thanks all I appreciate your help and patience.
Jerry
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There has been controversy here in past threads, because Monaco engineers recommend the procedure that Gerald Farris mentioned. We were taught the same thing during our dealer walk through at BCS when we bought it new. We follow it as a Basic Rule... "Slides out first and in last". Park, put slides out, then auto or manual level. Break camp, start engine, go to Travel Mode, shut down engine, pull in slides. Search the Forum for prior discussions if you like; explaining the reasoning behind it isn't simple. Other coach builders suggest their owners use the opposite procedure, so it's not surprising it is an oft-hashed topic on the other forum.
On another aspect, I occasionally do dump air when leveling if otherwise my entry step might end up unusually high off the entry ground; my wife complains if there is a giant first step up. I also often use a heavy duty RV fold-up step stool in lieu of that.
Joel
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We have been taught the (Joel Method) and have found that as long as the coach is leveled or at ride height with our Kitchen bath slide only it does not make any difference. I think it is easier on the system leveled for us but remember it is one slide that only extends 18 inches.
Thad said my son has a Jayco Seneca with a full wall slide that goes out 30 inches and he has to be leveled to extend it. Makes me feel that the "leveled" part is the important thing.
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Finally picked up the Patriot. The tech at Orlando RV actually knew someone involved with the design of the IDS system. After talking with them he built a manual panel for the levelers. It works great. I've got to say that it was a great experience buying there. The salesman were typical say anything to get it sold types. When I told management that the salesman promised all that, they stood by his word and went through the coach with a fine toothed comb. The prep guys were all great techs and fixed anything I found wrong with no complaint. Overall this Newbie has to recommend them highly! Below should be a pic of the control panel. I hope.