BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Dave Atherton on October 25, 2015, 05:35:58 AM
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I have talked before on this subject and seeing more and more non-CAT fuel filters on CAT
engines. Cat 2 micron fuel filters, when installed new have a 5 pound resistance on engine running. The engine ECM monitoring fuel system will give warning with lamp on dash when
fuel filter had reached end of life and has resistance of 10 pounds A warning is activated
when fuel pressure goes below 36 psi for 10 seconds. Engine will begin Derate mode when
ECM has identified fuel pressure that is less than 33 psi for 10 seconds with warning lamp
blinking on and off. Maximum derate is 39 % of engine power. ECM will restore full power
when fuel pressure rises above 46 psi or fuel filter changed out. ECM will give event code of E-005.
Non-CAT fuel filters normal run from 10 micron to 6 micron and not made to CAT spec's.
Many parts houses claim they sell 2 micron fuel filters, CAT seems to question how
fuel filters not built to their spec's. Depending on which parts house selling fuel filters
non CAT. This is not OK, the ECM will detect abnormal fuel pressure or no fuel pressure
resistance of the 5 psi resistance CAT fuel filter is spec. for. Basic your engine ECM fail
safe has been disable and fuel system has no warning to driver. Same time and over time
diesel fuel fine's will go into fuel rail and injectors that will require replacement of which
is very high prices. ECM cannot monitor without system parameters and with abnormal
or no fuel filter resistance.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Dave,
I have other than CAT fuel filters on my 1999 Marquis. This is a double system. Is this what you're writing about? The initial filter with the clear housing? Is that the 2 micron filter (or supposed to be)?
Mike
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Mike, sorry I should have explained myself better on the fuel filter. Fuel filter in question is
the secondary filter that is on the engine. I believe filter number should be 1R-0749 which
is the secondary fuel filter. The first fuel filter that has the plastic bowel is the primary which
will take out the big logs, leaves and water will settle to bottom of plastic bowel. Explained
about Cat's 2 micron fuel filter, cat uses a special material that is very tight fibers so diesel
fuel will not just pass through element without restriction, this where the 5 psi restriction
comes into play to set parameters for engine ECM. Caterpillar has there 2 micron fuel filter tied up with many patents and cannot be reproduced.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Dave:
Although I have always, instinctively, used a CAT filter on my MH, I didn't have a rationale for it until your post. Thanks for the info. I always carry a spare!
BTW, many of the SMC-era Beavers use Racor filters as the primary. I always carry one of those because they are not always easy to find locally.
Joel
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Ok, I'll come clean then. The secondary filter I have is the Baldwin BF7587 "high efficiency" filter. I believe the CAT Part is 1R-0749.
Anyone else?
Mike
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I believe the point Dave is trying to get everyone to understand is that a new C-12 cost is $50,000.00 and a Reman is $40,000.00. It is way too much risk to try using anything other than a CAT filter.
I know I for one did not understand the above costs until I asked Dave the costs of an engine failure after hearing him talk about using CAT parts. He is also particularly concerned as all of us Beavers have CAT engines that are no where new and many Coach,s are most likely not worth the cost of a new engine so we need to do all we can to maintain what we have.
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I believe the point Dave is trying to get everyone to understand is that a new C-12 cost is $50,000.00 and a Reman is $40,000.00.
I suspect that one reason our MH's hold price pretty well is the inherent value of the engine and transmission. From a quick web search it appears that used (not rebuilt) C12's with 300-400k miles are in the range of $7-12k plus shipping and used Allison 4060 transmissions are going for $5-8k. The basic chassis and drivetrain are so much better than what's being installed in ~80% of new MH's that ours are worth a decent amount despite their age. IMO there's little comparison between our MH's and those powered by Cummins ISB engines on a Freightliner chassis.
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Cat has put a lot of work into filter design and media materials. The 1R-0749 fuel filter is the right PN and is the highest efficiency particle remover Cat makes for this C12 application. There are three filter fuel efficiency levels that Cat produces, standard efficiency, advanced high efficiency, and ultra high efficiency. Your Beaver manual may be old enough to have the standard efficiency filter PN being specified, so if it does, you should notate the 1R-0749 as the correct version.
The Cat studies have found that the 5 micron and above particle sizes are the most damaging and cause fuel system components wear. Cat reduced the particle size distribution that they were effectively trying to capture with the new filter media in the advanced high efficiency and ultra high efficiency filters. The Cat 1R-0749 captures 98%+ of 2 micron particles and 74 out of 75 particles in the 5 to 10 micron range. The ultra high efficiency versions tend to be used for scrubbing contaminated fuel and may plug to quickly so they are not generally recommended.
There is a Beta number for filters that describes how effective they are at removing particles of a certain size. If a filter is rated at 2 microns but does not have a beta number then you have no idea if it captures 1 out of a 1000 - 2micron particles or 98 out of 100. 1 particle out of 200 passing through the filter would be a beta of 200, 4 particles out of 200 would be a beta of 50 so the higher the beta number the better. The Cat 1R-0749 has a Beta number of 75 at 2 microns and will allow 1 out of 75 to pass through into the fuel system. Just a micron size rating alone is meaningless. If Baldwin or any other manufacturer does not document a Beta number be very wary.
Nice Beta vs Efficiency Chart from Fleetguard
β 2 5 10 20 30 50 75 100 200 1000
Efficiency % 50 80 90 95 96.6 98 98.67 99 99.5 99.9
You also have no idea when you fuel up if you have 100,000- 2 micron particles per gallon of fuel or 10 -2 micron particles per gallon. In the size range of 5 microns and less I would think our fuel unfiltered has very large quantities of particles and varies a lot by supplier, age of tanks, etc. The fuel typically gets multiple passes through the filter which continues to scrub the fuel.
In Cat studies comparing competitive fuel filters, there was 45% less fuel system component wear with a Cat high efficiency fuel filter then the next best fuel filter competitor, which was Donaldson. This is probably one of the most significant easy things you can do to extend the life of your Cat fuel system components by just using the right Cat advanced high efficiency fuel filter.
When it comes to oil filters Cat also has standard, high efficiency, and ultra high efficiency filters. The Cat 1R-1808 is the high efficiency version which is also a great choice for the C12 and may not be the one listed in your Beaver Manual so while you are at it notate that number. The cost difference in filters between Cat and others is trivial in the scheme of things. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Unlike oil that passes through the same filter over and over, we pass fuel through a filter just once.
I have been under the impression that the flow of fuel through the filters is at a far higher rate than what the engine burns in the same period; essentially, the fuel is continuously being recirculated through the system.
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Joel, I'm going say that diesel fuel will flow through the filter than to injectors and return back
to the the fuel rail and back into filter and will make the round. This is on a C-12 engine. I hope
This is not going to get off track but let's go back to the first post where the subject is fuel
filter having a 5 psi resistance when new and as diesel fuel fine's catch in filter and increases
10 psi. At this point engine ECM will set off warning, than derate. I'm going into detail as make
up of fuel filter other than at 10 psi fuel pressure will drop below 33 psi and engine will derate
and will stay in derate mode untill fuel pressure can increase to 46 psi or change fuel filter.
Again non-cat fuel filters will not preform as to my first post. I plan to keep the subject simple
where everyone will understand the point with non-cat fuel filters, the engine ECM is set up to
go with the 5 psi back pressure resistance and parameter is based at this point. End result with
non-cat fuel filters abnormal fuel pressure or no fuel back pressure resistance again ECM fail
safe has been removed. In closing, remember the diesel fuel that is unused will return to the
fuel rail by fuel fiter and return back into the fuel filter and start over again. On the Cat C-9
And below is a heui type injection and diesel fuel returns back to tank and will be used over
many times. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic.
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Dave
I had my Beaver serviced at Ringpower Cat in Ocala last December. They installed a Cat filter on the engine but used a Donaldson filter for what I think is the water seperator. Is this normal and ok or should my engine have 2 filters made by Cat??
Also, I have been opening the drain on this Donaldson filter on a regular basis to check for water. Am I doing the right thing??
Thanks Dave I appreciate you and your mission to help us!
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Dan, answered you but got lost some place. What you have done is ok. The secondary
fuel filter 1R-0751 is the 2 micron fuel filter on your engine. The primary fuel is the fuel/water
that removes the logs , dirt and water than sends fuel to the secondary Cat filter. There has
been very good feed back on this subject and will save many problems and cost ahead for
All of cat owners. Dave Atherton Retire Cat Mechanic
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Thanks Dan for asking that, and Dave for the reply.
I was scheduled in to have Henderson's service the engine this week, read this thread, and my manuals, and then checked the CAT website. Though they are a pre-eminent chassis service resource, they aren't listed as CAT service dealers. I called to see what fuel filters they use and was told Wick (probably I misheard with my bad hearing and he said Wix). When I said I'd prefer CAT and why, he said no problem and he would have a 1R-0751 and a 1R-0781 (as per my CAT engine manual) in stock when I got there. (My Beaver Coach manual lists a Racor R90T primary).
Only thing I note is the 0781 is supposedly a 10 micron, but I always understood that was correct - fuel first goes through a 10, then a 2. Of course this means the 2 micron will have to catch more "logs", but my filters don't get many miles on them between changes anyway.
I have to say after going to CAT's website to check for filter numbers, they aren't in the same format as our books, so I'm glad Dave is around to interpret that stuff. I probably didn't land on the right page, but entered my serial number and that's where it took me. On another page I found the filter numbers I have listed in my books, but they didn't show the engine applications they apply to.
Serial number 9DG07336
-Joel
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Joel ,the correct secondary 2 Micron fuel filter for your engine is 1R-0751 which is a cat part
number. We don't worry if brand X is used for the primary again it just removes the logs , dirt
and water than sends diesel fuel up to the Cat secondary 2 Micron 1R-0751 fuel filter. One word
thought if non-cat service shop does your work ( changing fuel filter ). Make sure they do not
Pre fill cat fuel filter with diesel fuel. Reason now you are adding dirty diesel fuel fine's direct
into your fuel rail. You may have a hand punp on the engine 1R-0751 filter base or a push bulb
on the primary fuel filter. Pre-filling fuel filters is a standard practice with a service that is non-cat
and uses brand X fuel filters that are 10 micron. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Joel ,the correct secondary 2 Micron fuel filter for your engine is 1R-0751 which is a cat part
number. We don't worry if brand X is used for the primary again it just removes the logs , dirt
and water than sends diesel fuel up to the Cat secondary 2 Micron 1R-0751 fuel filter. One word
thought if non-cat service shop does your work ( changing fuel filter ). Make sure they do not
Pre fill cat fuel filter with diesel fuel. Reason now you are adding dirty diesel fuel fine's direct
into your fuel rail. You may have a hand punp on the engine 1R-0751 filter base or a push bulb
on the primary fuel filter. Pre-filling fuel filters is a standard practice with a service that is non-cat
and uses brand X fuel filters that are 10 micron. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
Thanks again Dave! I just ordered 3 CAT filters!
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Pre-filling fuel filters is a standard practice with a service that is non-cat
and uses brand X fuel filters that are 10 micron. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
With all due respect, I watched a technician at a CAT shop in San Antonio prefill my filter and I didn't object because I thought this was pretty standard practice as long as clean fuel was used and the tech was careful to only pour the fuel into the inlet ports, not the outlet.
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Joel, anytime a Cat 2 micron fuel filter is pre-filled reguardless how the fuel is poured in filter,
a person is taking a chance of contamination of raw unfiltered fuel. In several cases where fuel
filters were serviced when I was working for Cat Dealer ( cat engine did not have the hand
primer pump ), we were required to strain raw fuel with paint strainer into a gallon jug and
keep on our service truck, than pre- fill the secondary 2 micron like you just mentioned. the
only thing different, the fuel we pre-filled filter with was strained as per company policy. This
was suggestion I just passed on that taken a lot of meaning prevent fuel contamination with
again Cat Dealer where I worked. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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I had posted that the fuel passed through the filter once and that is in error. The fuel schematic for a C12 has the return from the fuel rail go back to the filter housing as Dave pointed out. There is also a tank return line coming out of the filter housing. It is not clear in the schematic where the fuel in the filter housing is being directed, but after thinking about it, they only way we could have our fuel tank continually heat up as we drive, (I have seen 130+ degrees on the Alladin) is if the fuel that absorbed heat at the fuel rail was at least in part returned to the tank.
Thank you Joel and Dave for picking up on that error and helping to get this right.
Later Ed
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Joel Weiss, digging deeper into practice of Prefilling cat fuel filters that might be of interest with Cat Electronic engines. Cat Service Bulletin, 01/04/2000. Fuel filter prefill practices are harmful to fuel systems, and should always be avoided. Proper fuel filter maintenance requires priming the replacement filter at the time of install. Many operators and mechanics prefill replacement filters with used fuel from spent filters. Practice allows dirty fuel to bypass the fuel filter media and enter the clean side of filter. Prefilling a fuel filter compromises integrity of an engine fuel system by allowing unfiltered fuel to enter the system and contaminate sensitive fuel injectors and pumps.
A priming pump should be used to prime replacement filters with fuel. It is important to prime, and not prefill, replacement filters in order to ensure that fuel systems receive filtered fuel only.
Joel going back on my answer that I posted, It was Cat dealer policy where I was employed
to filter raw diesel fuel with paint strainer into gallon container and carry on service truck if
need that required prefill of fuel filter. What makes the Cat 2 Micron fuel different from others
such as the 1R-0749 fuel filter used on Cat C-12, High Efficiency fuel filter with Stay Clean Valves.
Replaced all Standard Fuel Filters 01/04/2000. the stay clean valve will prevent unfiltered fuel, which contain abrasive contaminants, from entering the clean side of fuel filter. Unfiltered fuel will cause damage to the engine fuel system.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge. Just a quick question on priming the cat filters;
My C12 does not have a fuel filter priming pump. Therefore, it is my understanding from the threads above that the filter should be installed without fuel in it. It that correct?
Best to you!
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Michael, with no priming hand pump on fuel filter base, there should be a hand push primer
on your primary filter with the water plastic bowel on bottom. Or you possibly have installed
the Winn filter setup with electric pump and little black box with indicator lights that located
should be on right rear of motorhome. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Michael, with no priming hand pump on fuel filter base, there should be a hand push primer
on your primary filter with the water plastic bowel on bottom. Or you possibly have installed
the Winn filter setup with electric pump and little black box with indicator lights that located
should be on right rear of motorhome. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
Dave, I was going to ask about priming also. Mine had the electric one that does not work and was damaged by high heat after the exhaust pipe fell off. It didn't work before anyway. With no priming pump, how do I "prime" after changing the fuel filter? Thanks
Jerry
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Jerry, what has happen that you builder add on failed. look at your primary fuel filter to see
if there is a hand pump at filter base ( should be looking at black rubber hand push bulb ) If
not than go to plan B the way Cat made engine and before install into motorhome. two suggestions depending how easy it is getting to fuel filter base. there is air bleed screw ( hex )
that you can loosen install new 1R-0749 fuel filter dry. with bleed screw open key on turn engine
for 30 seconds aprox and let starter cool than again. there is a little gear pump down in front
of engine that will pump into the fuel filter with air bleed screw loose. About the second time fuel should be coming out of bleed screw and engine want to start. engine will idle a little rough
untill air is gone through system tighten bleed screw. Plan B, and like most people do and can
be done is to strain fuel through paint strainer into a gallon container and pre fill filter. However
my post above cat does not recommend this. Again in the next thought had policy for service
tech's if required to pre filter raw diesel fuel and prefill fuel filter and start engine. I cannot
tell you how you should address the above but fuel is pre filtered before prefilling fuel filter
with clean diesel fuel. Return to Joel post he viewed a cat tech pre fill his fuel filter. Hope this
help with thoughts. Dave AthertonRetired Cat Mechanic
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Or you possibly have installed the Winn filter setup with electric pump and little black box with indicator lights that located
should be on right rear of motorhome.
I have this setup but I never realized that the pump was capable of priming both the primary and secondary filters. In fact the Cat technician I wrote about used the electric pump to prime the primary but then prefilled the secondary CAT filter. I guess he didn't realize the Winn pump would have filled both.
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Dave,
If I remember correctly the inlet of the fuel comes into the outside of the filter and out through the middle. In theory you could take a 1"-14 bolt with a O-Ring stop on it and seal up the mount and then pour the fuel into the outside and your fuel would be filtered? Or am I all wet as usual.
I have a hand pump with a discharge filter on it that I fill my fuel jug with. Most shops that I've seen use a fuel cart that has filters on the discharge side of their pump,we had one and I know Cat here in Phoenix, Az does it this way.
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Lee , yes that would work great, why is fuel filter subject so important with the Cat Electronic
engines. The Engines has two types of fuel injection systems that is completely different than
others engine mfg. There were many bugs at first untill cat got it right. Engines starting from
3126A model to the C-9 of which all have the Cat heui system. Than starting at C-10 up to
C-15 for motorhomes, cat now has what is called a electronic high pressure injection system.
Both injections systems are very good but different. End result, the post on the working of
ECM and fuel filters 2 micron, the engine was designed around the filtration of fuel through
fuel filter restriction and engine derate when service is due. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Back in 70's & 80's we used to have serious problems with fuel, mostly water, the advent of the water separators solved most of that problem but we still carried a case of fuel filters. We would never buy fuel at any place that didn't have a big volume turn over.
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A word of caution....The fine mesh nylon and paper automotive paint strainers are available in 125 to 400 micron mesh, typical is 200 micron. The most damaging particle size to our fuel system is in the 5 -10 micron size range. This practice of filtering with paint strainers is ineffective in screening out the particles of a size distribution that are of most concern. To put this in perspective, 1/1000 of an inch is 25 microns, a human hair diameter is 40 to 90 microns.
This is a pretty good article .. The diesel fuel ISO standard limit for particles >4 microns is set at about 1 million per gallon so don't expect unfiltered fuel to be clean.
http://www.howcleanisyouroil.com/DIESEL-FUEL-OIL
I would opt to get a priming system running as a first choice or use Lee's method of filling the filter with the center hole blocked off. Dave's method of cranking with the bleed screw open sounds like a safer method of getting filtered fuel to the engine. I would not be concerned about filling the pre filter (mine is rated at 30 microns) with raw fuel, the final filter rated at 2 microns is the one to be concerned about. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Gentleman, the post ( non-cat filters puts electronic engines at risk ) has very positive
feedback via of members. Mainly with cat electronic engines that has a fuel system
that is very different than other engine builders. In the early days as Lee stated, would
carry a box of fuel filters on his truck to make a trip says it all. The practice of handling
diesel fuel, changing fuel filters did not seem to be a big thing. Than Cat built the 3126
and 3176 electronic engine with a computer and start of the fuel system which we
are now using today in our cat electronic engines. This has been a very hard subject
for many, many years with Contractors, Trucking and than the motorhome people
to understand, most all problems with Diesel engines start at the fuel system.
In most cases today are minor in nature but than compounded by not understanding
just how important clean fuel and correct cat fuel filters affect your cat engine and
added cost to ownership. Again gentleman, this positive feed back on this subject
with so many good replys has been great. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic