BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: David T. Richelderfer on December 20, 2015, 11:22:22 PM
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The coach has a Xantrex SW series 2500w inverter. We are parked at a RV park and the coach has been plugged into 50a power for a couple hours with the Aladdin reporting 124v to 125v on both AC legs. Lower on the screen, the Aladdin is reporting the coach batteries ranging between 12.0v and 12.5v. In this situation, i.e., plugged in to 50a power, the Aladdin used to show the batteries at 13.0v to 13.5v consistently. Come to think of it, I have not seen over 12.5v in the house batteries for awhile, at least several days or weeks. I have tried initiating a battery equalization process by going to the inverter's remote display for Generator Mode, under "Set Generator" and moving the underline cursor to "EQ". The yellow LED labeled "Bulk" comes on blinking slowly as it should indicating the process has been initiated (I think). The "Set Absorption time" and "Set Equalize time" settings in the battery charging (10) menu heading are both set to "02:00".
I would have thought that once the equalization process has begun one of the Aladdin's AC Legs would show a high rate of power usage for charging the batteries. Also, I would have thought the DIS/CHG rate for the coach batteries would show a rather high CHG rate. BUT... at this moment, for example, the Aladdin is reporting the coach batteries at 12.5v with a 6 CHG rate... and this with the yellow Bulk LED blinking showing the equalization process is going.
Something is wrong here and I have no idea what or where to look....
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Update - My generator just started up automatically. Boy o' boy, something's wrong!
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David,
You can try to reset your inverter if possible (look in the operator's manual). On my Prosine inverter, you reset it by removing all power. However, it sounds like it is time to repair or replace your inverter, assuming that you do not have a tripped inverter breaker.
Gerald
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When you were in the generator setting I'll bet you turned on the autostart function on the generator this happened to me it's easy to do. Also I would check the settings on the inverter part of the control panel , you can set the charge rate for absorb and float equalize etc I would look and see what the settings are. If this is a trace panel the. Complex manual is avail online get it. Good for an entire evenings reAding
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David
While we have a Magnum inverter now that is about two years old, the theory is the same as yours more or less.
We were getting all kinds of odd numbers on the monitor panel. I was thinking the new inverter failed or the batteries just died neither of which made much sense.
The problem turned out to be the temp sensor on the batteries. Because it was bad the inverter was getting bad info.
On ours the temp sensor is a black rectangular item attached on a battery with the cable. It is connected to the inverter via a phone connector plug. There is a connector jack in the battery compartment for convience.
To test this use a multi meter while on shore power. Check he charge rate on the batteries then unplug the temp sensor and check again. The charge rate should now be normal (+/- 13.5V).
We ordered a new one from Magnum for under $30 and install time was 5 minutes.
Good luck
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I seem to be able to get the house batteries up to 12.5v, but no higher. And this only when I initiate the battery equalization function on the inverter's remote panel. As long as that blinking yellow BULK LED light is blinking on the remote panel, then the inverter will provide charge to the batteries, but only to 12.5v. For example, when I checked the batteries' charge level first thing this morning at 6 am, the charge level was 11.9v. I initiated the equalization function on the inverter's remote panel and quickly saw a charge rate of high double digits, but as the batteries move up to 12.5v the charge rate moves down to single digits.
At dusk last night I went to check the batteries. They are all cold with no sign of warming as I would expect in conjunction with an equalization process. Also, I saw the Battery Temperature Sensor (BTS) was not attached to a battery. It was loose, the tape had come off the battery, and was simply standing up laying loosely between two batteries. I re-attached it best I could with duct tape back onto the side of the interior battery - the same battery it had been attached to. As noted above and witnessed by the batteries' voltage first thing this morning, re-attaching the BTS made no difference. Of course, that doesn't mean the BTS is good or bad. I will take a detailed look per Mr. Moffett's suggestion after it gets light outside. I will also try turning off all power to the coach in an attempt to reset the inverter as noted by Mr. Farris. I found no mention of breakers or reset buttons, other than to reset to factory defaults, in the inverter manual.
At this point with it being dark outside yet, I am going to use my time to research new inverters on the internet. So, I have some questions - 1) what is the preferred make and model for my application? I assume Magnum but what model. The inverter currently installed is a Trace Xantrex SW Series Inverter/Charger, I believe 2.5kw. Does a 3.0kw make sense given we push the limits of this one occasionally? 2) Can an inverter be purchased that just slides in, meaning the new one uses the same remote panel, etc., to make installation very quick and simple? 3) We're parked in Fredericksburg, TX in the newly opened Quiet Creek RV Resort. Anyone know of a reliable repair company, probably mobile capable, in the immediate area?
Thanks in advance...
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David,
What is the voltage at the battery cables coming off the face of the Xantrex? Have you checked the 200 amp in line fuse between the batteries and the Xantrex? The BTS mounted to the batteries only tells the charger when to back off the charge rate if they are hot.
In the event the charger has expired, Magnum inverters are almost bullet proof and the swap out is pretty straight forward. The ratings are based on inverter watts output so ask yourself how often will you try to run the coach at capacity rating. The MS 2812 is a pure sine wave but runs about 2000.00 with a retail value of 2479.00. The remote panel is about 250.00. Regards, Fred
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David,
Another thought concerning the charger/inverter, The charge logic is controlled by the small PC board mounted behind the soft buttons on the front. The board is about 300.00 to 350.00 and the labor should be about 3 hours to change it. You can call Xantrex and inquire who is the closest dealer who stocks the part. In the mean time, put an automotive battery charger on your house batteries until you sort this out. Fred
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David,
You can try to reset your inverter if possible (look in the operator's manual). On my Prosine inverter, you reset it by removing all power. However, it sounds like it is time to repair or replace your inverter, assuming that you do not have a tripped inverter breaker.
Gerald
Our Xantrex went into this same failure mode a couple of years ago. For a month or two I was able to do what Gerald suggests and it did work, but the problem wasn't really going away. Finally, I bit the bullet and installed a pure sine wave Magnum MS2800. Problem solved
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Be aware that the trace inverter while no longer made can be repaired probably at a much lower cost than a new magnum and is much more capable than any but the high end magnum. It was ahead of its time. The trace is highly sought after by the solar crowd so don't just "give it away" check eBay and solar sites and you'd be surprised
You can remove 12 volt and 110 power at the circuit breaker boxes and crawl in the bay and unplug the temp sensor from the inverter itself
I had also heard or read someone else say the temp sensor could cause that type problem BTW it doesn't need to be attached to the battery just laying in between the batteries is good enough.
What are your equalizer settings ? Are they set above 15.3 volts ? They are adjustable and could be set wrong ... Like 12.5 for example.
When I put 600 watts additional solar on I looked at replacing it and was told to keep it as it was better than the magnum I was looking to replace it with
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My inverter/charger is a Xantrex Trace SW2512MC and has a remote panel in the coach's cabin.
I spent most of today either on the phone talking with Xantrex technical staff in Burnaby, BC and Southern California, or putting my multi-tester on various points checking voltages. What I have learned is the problem is likely internal to the inverter/charger. The house battery bank at the batteries reads 12.8v to 12.9v while at the same time at the inverter/charger DC input points only 0.02v less (12.82v at the batteries vs 12.80v at the inverter as one example), so the battery bank was at near full charge and the cables from the battery bank to the inverter are not the problem. AND while at the same time both the Aladdin "Coach Electrical Status" screen AND the inverter's remote digital screen show identical readings for the house battery bank some 0.4v lower. So... the inverter has a conflict between the actual battery bank voltage versus what it is reporting to the Aladdin and the inverter's remote screen. The way I interpret the problem is part of the inverter thinks the battery bank is charged up, but another part of the inverter thinks the battery bank is not charged up. Thus the conflict in its internal workings. This inverter does not have a reset button to jump-start it, nor does powering it off and on jump-start it.
I called the closest Xantrex repair shop from me going to the West (which is in Tucson) to discuss having my inverter repaired. My inverter has only one internal circuit board and a replacement board IF one is available will cost $1450 plus estimated $250 labor to install. All in for a repair would be $1700 or so. If the replacement circuit board is not available, then a new replacement inverter (Xantrex Freedom SW 3000w) would cost $2350 plus $300 for a remote plus estimated $450 labor to install. All in for the new replacement inverter would be $3100 or so. This repair shop in Tucson also repairs and sells Magnum inverter/chargers, and has refurbished inverters too at much lower costs. So that may also become part of the discussion when and if I go there.
I have remaining about 2/3rds of a year on the 4-year extended warranty from when I purchased the coach in August 2012. The warranty has a $500 deductible per repair-visit. Also, I think I need to get the coach's windshield re-set because it leaks a bit and is showing ever larger gaps on both top corners.
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David, if you need a board a friend of mine has a new one. He used to be a xantrex tech but was screwed by their warranty dept so he quit dealing with them. He may work on price better than $1450.00 you mentioned above. Let me know if you need his number.
Jerry
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David,
I thinks the differences in voltage levels between the battery terminals and the inverter terminals is negligible and really have no meaning other then it implies that the batteries are in good shape and not drawing a lot of current due to a bad cell. If significant current was being supplied the voltage would be less at the battery terminals due to voltage drop in the wire run from the inverter. If you power up a lot of 12V loads like the Halogen lights is there any response in the current being supplied by the inverter/charger as shown on the inverter/charger readout panel or with a raise in voltage level at the battery posts?
When you try and reset the inverter by un-powering it you have to remove the AC feed from the coach main breaker at the panel or the main power cord and also disconnect the battery feeds by shutting off the battery bank switches for 30 seconds. Just wanted to pass that along just in case that was unclear.
I am not sure what the allowed tolerance is in the readouts between the battery post and the readout panels. They would not concern me that much if the voltage at the battery terminals was higher in the 13.5V range and the current being supplied by the inverter charger varied on the readout with the load demand. It may very well be a charger failure, as you suspect, but check to see if the current load/supply varies on the charger/inverter panel as you vary the load. If it has failed, while I had a warranty, I would be looking into the Magnum line given the good reliability reports from others.
Later Ed
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Ed - First thing yesterday (Monday) morning I powered off everything - pedestal 50a, inverter/charger, coach battery disconnect, etc., everything except the chassis battery disconnect and let it sit for awhile, then reconnected them all. No change. I spent most of the early day yesterday (Monday) on the phone with a technician in Burnaby, BC and he later turned me over to an engineer in California. They had me checking several things with a multi-meter around the battery bank and inverter. The engineer had me reset the inverter/charger to factory defaults, then we went through the inverter settings so that he was happy with them. We then checked the battery bank voltage and compared that to the Aladdin's and remote panel's reported battery bank voltages. The battery bank's actual voltage shown on the multi-meter was about 5 volts higher than the Aladdin and invertor remote panel were reporting. Both the technician and engineer diagnosed the inverter has a problem.
Later yesterday evening and all day today the difference between the battery bank voltage versus the Aladdin's and inverter remote's reported voltage for the battery bank is 7 volts to 8 volts difference. When I was talking to the technician and engineer yesterday the highest value I could get on the Aladdin and inverter remote panel was 12.6 volts... and that after the inverter charge amps (as reported by the Aladdin) had gone to near 0 (zero), which means to me the charging function has completed its job. Last night and today the highest value I can get on the Aladdin and inverter remote panel is 12.3 volts... and again that is after the inverter charge amps (as reported by the Aladdin) has gone to 0 (zero).
I have had a portable charger on the battery bank all day set to 2 amp charge. Right now, just after returning home from being away for six hours the portable charger is reporting the battery bank is fully charged, and the Aladdin is reporting the battery bank at 12.3 volts with a 4 amp charge rate.
I am not an electrician by far, but this ain't right. In the past when the battery bank was fully charged the Aladdin reported to me something like 13.3 to 13.4 volts. I have not seen over 12.6 volts for several days.
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David,
Obviously the 7 to 8V difference is clearly wrong. Also the fact that you cannot get 13+V on charge function is wrong. Your reset routine was correct and that exercise had no positive change in the results.
Dave I think you can be very confident that this charging system has seen its better days. There is little more that you can do to try and repair or restore function from your end so turning your attention to warranty coverage and the best choice in a new system is energy well spent in putting this repair behind you. You have done your homework...
Hopefully the next steps will go smoothly.
Later Ed
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I have had a portable charger on the battery bank all day set to 2 amp charge. Right now, just after returning home from being away for six hours the portable charger is reporting the battery bank is fully charged, and the Aladdin is reporting the battery bank at 12.3 volts with a 4 amp charge rate.
This is what really puzzles me. Why would the portable charger, that has nothing to do with whatever might be going on in the coach, report that the battery bank is fully charged?
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Have you verified the Aladdin reading by using a voltmeter directly on the batteries?
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I went back and re-read my posts in this thread. Notably, I must confess I miss-typed some numbers. In an earlier post I indicated the difference between the HOUSE battery bank voltage at the bank versus at the Aladdin and inverter remote panel was 7v to 8v. That should have been 0.7v to 0.8v. Basically, after I had the portable charger connected to the HOUSE battery bank at a 2 amp rate for several hours I was seeing 12.9v at the HOUSE battery bank using the multi-tester while at the same time I was seeing 12.3v (or so) on the Aladdin and inverter remote panel.
Later, as a test, I set the absorption time on the inverter up from 2 hours to 6 hours and set the portable battery charger up from 2 amps to 10 amps. Now I was seeing 12.9v at the HOUSE battery bank using the multi-tester, while at the same time the Aladdin and inverter remote were showing 12.5v. Changing the absorption time kept the yellow BULK LED on for a much longer time which in turn made the Aladdin report a charging amperage for a much longer time. Notably, as soon as the yellow BULK LED goes out the Aladdin's reported charge rate goes to discharge and over time the Aladdin's reported HOUSE battery bank voltage erodes to lower values. So, when I see the yellow BULK LED out I reset it to on.
Until departing Fredericksburg, TX this morning I had the portable charger connected to the HOUSE battery bank and set on the 10 amp charge rate for about 36 hours. During this 36 hours the absorption time was set to 6 hours. When I went to start the engine to air up the bags before retracting the slides I noticed the CHASSIS battery bank voltage reported on the Aladdin was 11.0v. When I turned the key to start the engine there was not enough battery power to turn over the engine. It just clicked repeatedly. The 50 amp cord was still connected, the HOUSE battery bank still had the portable charger attached at the 10 amp charge rate and the HOUSE battery bank voltage on the Aladdin was 12.5v. So, I used the BATTERY BOOST to start the engine. I aired up the coach and shut it down to retract the slides. I again used the BATTERY BOOST to start the engine and let the engine run while I disconnected the portable charger and disconnected the 50 amp cord from the RV park pedestal.
After an hour or so of traveling from Fredericksburg the Aladdin was reporting both battery banks (while traveling) at 14.0v to 14.1v. The dashboard's amperage gauge while traveling was reporting about 14v. I have been at an RV park in Fort Stockton for about 3 hours plugged into 50 amp with the absorption time set on 6 hours without the portable charger connected. The Aladdin is reporting the HOUSE battery bank at 12.4v with a 9 amp DIS rate, and the CHASSIS battery bank at 12.8v. Why would the CHASSIS battery bank GO TO 11.0V in Fredericksburg when it had not been used? It occurs to me that I might suggest the service tech check the BIG BOY and BIRD charging system first when I get to Tucson next week. That would be quicker and easier than removing and bench testing the inverter/charger.
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DAvid,
I may be mistaken but am fairly sure the charge path with a Bird system charges both house and chassis batteries at the same time rather than house to chassis with an Echo system. Since the batteries are reading "normally" when the charge source is the alternator, it sounds like the Xantrex charge system is the culprit.
Steve
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David,
Because this all worked well before you had the Xantrex problems I believe like Steve does that the Xantrex is your problem. There is discharge from the chassis battery to the engine ECU even with the key off in most of these chassis. The Big Boy relies on voltage levels to connect the two banks and you may not be reaching those levels. The fact that a small charger can maintain your house bank to some extent and that the engine alternator gets to 14.1V with driving would imply that the batteries themselves do not have shorted cells which could cause charging issues. I would start with a Xantrex replace/repair before pulling anything else apart. If you are using a small charger and your chassis bank is not getting charged add a jumper cable from the 12V plus of the house bank to the 12V plus of the chassis bank while you are charging. You are then not relying on the Big Boy logic to couple the banks. You may not be getting to high enough voltage levels with a small charger to trigger the Big Boy logic to connect.
Later Ed
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Keeping the yellow BULK LED light on seems to be working. I have now changed the absorption setting on the inverter's remote panel to 8 hours. So far, this has kept the yellow BULK LED light on indefinitely. (I hope this does not cause a side issue.) Also, since the yellow BULK LED light is on constantly the HOUSE battery bank voltage, as reported by the Aladdin, has been maintaining 12.6v to 12.7v. Now I need to address the declining voltage on the CHASSIS battery bank. I will either attach jumper cables between the two banks of batteries as Mr. Buker suggested, or attach my new portable charger to the Chassis battery bank set on a 10 amp charge rate. I think I have this figured out well enough to get by until after New Years when I get to the RVMD shop in Tucson.
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I have been in the Pima County Fairgrounds for three nights. The RVMD people have been to the coach and just this morning have decided the inverter/charger (a Xantrex Trace SW 2512 MC, vintage 2003) needs to be replaced. Its battery charging circuit is operating very erratically and in RVMD's opinion is in the process of failing and likely to soon fail completely. For three weeks the only way I could keep both battery banks mostly fully charged has been to connect two portable chargers, one to each bank. When traveling, the engine's alternator did a great job keeping the battery banks fully charged. Now I am waiting for the RVMD folks to contact my warranty company about the several issues in the coach getting repaired - the big item being the inverter/charger with other items being a Norcold Ice Maker leak, a sconce rheostat light switch being replaced, and an inspection and "tune-up" of the two leveling systems, HWH air and RVA hydraulic.
It appears I have a choice of competing, comparable inverters. I suspect the warranty company will decide which it will pay for. I am leaning towards the Magnum 2800w basis the many opinions I have read here on the Forum. The Xantrex alternative is its 3000w. Neither manufacturer now offers a 2500w for replacement. I have been warned by RVMD that in their experience warranty companies will not pay for new inverter remote modules nor Auto Gen Start (AGS) modules. Apparently, warranty companies consider remote and AGS modules as "upgrades" even though my SW 2512 inverter has both features. The warranty company and I may have to have a serious meeting of the minds. We'll see.
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Warranty Companies are so much fun to debate with.(NOT) !
Usually in my debates I lost so I don't have it anymore. I put money away for issues I can't repair myself.
Good luck getting all your repairs accomplished.
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FWIW I started a thread yesterday that appears very similar to this one. The voltage reported on my CMP was about half a volt less than the voltage being displayed on the inverter's remote panel. In my case, I was able to make the discrepancy disappear by cycling the "salesman's switch" through a couple of ON/OFF cycles. Although the fix was temporary and had to be repeated, it appears to be getting better each time it is done as if the relay terminals are cleaning themselves a bit.
I doubt that Dave's problem is the same as mine, but you never can tell....
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Yesterday the independent inspector for the warranty company checked the inverter on the repair company's bench (RVMD in Tucson, AZ) and came to the Marquis to check on the other two items being submitted for warranty coverage on this service call. The other two items are a leaking ice maker in our Norcold LRIM 1200 fridge and a dimmer switch for one sconce light fixture. The two major items have been approved for replacement under the warranty. The sconce light dimmer switch, since it had been removed, was not able to be approved because the inspector was unable to see it malfunction. I did not know that until this morning; he did not mention it while here, although he did take a look at it.
This morning I authorized the ordering of 1) a new inverter/charger plus its remote panel and Auto Gen Start (AGS) module and 2) a new ice maker unit for the fridge. These items are fully covered (except freight, if any) under the warranty - the items themselves and their installation. I had already found a replacement sconce dimmer switch ($11.99, no freight) on Ebay and have received it. Recall, I had been warned by RVMD that warranty companies typically do not pay for remote panels and AGS modules because they are considered "upgrades," but my inverter had both these features so they agreed to pay for them without an argument. The AGS was incorporated within the old inverter; new inverters typically have separate AGS modules now.
I will be getting a new Xantrex Freedom SW3000 inverter. You may criticize this decision by being in favor of the Magnum. The Xantrex unit will be here on Tuesday next week and ready for installation either Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday. The Magnum unit takes at least a week for delivery. After spending many hours on the internet researching, I found the original Xantrex Freedom series invertors (shipped 2010 to 2012/13) had problems but the newer units seem to have been working well with fewer, if any, problems. I do not know about the ice maker's expected delivery date. Hopefully, I'll be able to leave Tucson by the end of next week or after the weekend... after two weeks of being parked here. I will likely stay on a few days after everything is installed to make sure it's all working properly.
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It's 7am in Tucson, AZ and I am happy to finally see both the Marquis' battery banks showing 13.6v to 13.7v after installation of the new Xantrex Freedom SW3000 inverter/charger yesterday. The new inverter/charger was switched on just before dusk and the Aladdin immediately showed a 130+ amp "HOUSE BAT" charge rate with the "HOUSE BAT" voltage showing about 14.5v. At this moment and after charging overnight the Aladdin is showing the "HOUSE BAT" at 13.7v with a charge rate of 4a. The younger, skinny guy of the two RVMD guys ran a new battery temperature cable from the HOUSE battery bank to the inverter and a new remote System Control Panel (SCP) cable from the front of the coach above the entry steps down and back to where the inverter/charger is located. It's a good thing he is young and skinny. He was under the coach and out-of-sight for a long time stringing those two cables!
Also, yesterday the Norcold fridge's ice maker was replaced. This morning I can see it has not only made ice, but also without a hint of a water leak down the side of the freezer compartment's wall onto the freezer compartment's floor.
My total bill was $606 -- $106 for adjusting the two bubble levels, one each for the air leveling and hydraulic leveling systems, plus $500 deductible for the $3,550 bill for the inverter/charger replacement. My warranty company has now paid out about $6,200 in 3 1/2 years on the 4-year warranty that cost $5,000.
Now on to figuring out how to manage and program this new inverter/charger system...
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On Friday, January 22, 2016 the two RVMD guys had to return to fix an installation error they made on the new Xantrex Freedom SW3000 watt inverter/charger. There are 14 different generator types that can be programmed into the inverter. The head RVMD tech who was leading this installation was not sure which generator type should be entered. After he called Xantrex the day after the installation he found out my generator (an Onan 12.5KW Quiet Diesel) is a "Type 1." In further discussion the Xantrex spokesman related there are four wires coming from the generator that all must be connected into the Auto Gen Start (AGS) module. Only three of the four wires were used by the prior inverter that went bad. Therefore, they had to return to the coach to string another wire along the frame rail from the generator to the AGS module.
After setting the correct generator type into the new Xantrex program, everything seems to be working. It's now Sunday, so it has worked well for two days. We plan to hang here for at least several more days to enjoy the 70F to 85F temps and give the new inverter and me time to get to know each other. Hopefully, this service call is history.
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David,
Glad you have the charging system back in order. All is well that ends well...
Later Ed