BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Stan Simpson on July 09, 2016, 09:53:18 PM
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I have our coach plugged in to a 20 amp outdoor receptacle when we are not traveling. It keeps the house batteries charged. When I look at the Xantrex Inverter panel above the door, I have Invrtr/Chrgr selected, and there is a green light at the top of the panel. It always shows on "float" indicated by a floating X on the screen.
Today, we went to the coach to do some cleaning to get ready for our trip. As soon as we arrived, I turned on the Genset so we could use the AC. When we tried to put the slides out, they would barely move. I looked at the Aladdin and it said GenSet Power selected with 119 on one leg, and 121 on the other leg. When I pushed the switch to move the slide, the GenSet surged, the Xantrex screen went off, and the slide wouldn't move. I tried it on all of them. A few seconds later, the Aladdin screen said Open Ground. Then in just a short while, that went away, the Xantrex screen came back on and the screen showed a graphic regarding "bulk charge", until I hit a slide out switch again, and it went blank, again.
I turned the GenSet off, the transfer switch put the coach on shore power, and it was so indicated on the Aladdin. Without the generator running, I could move the slides in and out at will. The Xantrex screen had the green light at the top, and in a few minutes it went to float.
I am clueless. How are the slides operating flawlessly on 20 amp, and won't operate with 50 amp from the Genset? Does any one have an idea?
Thanks,
Stan
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Stan, I would look at the transfer switch generator side relay. Might be some burned/corroded contacts.
Jerry
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Stan, I would look at the transfer switch generator side relay. Might be some burned/corroded contacts.
Jerry
Thank you, Jerry. I'm going to the coach today, and will take pictures of the bay that holds my power cord, transfer switch (I think) and surge protector. Perhaps you can look at them and let me know where the contacts are? Or are you talking about one of those relays in the electrical bay?
Stan
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Stan,
This indeed is a puzzling one.... It looked to me like for some reason while on the generator you had an excessive current load when you hit the slide button, that caused the generator to surge in response and the voltage drops gave the Alladin some odd voltage input that it interpreted the best it could.
I do not know if your slides are driven by 12V and use a hydraulic pump or not. If it were me I would put the generator under some load like the two roof airs and if that went well then repeat the operation of moving the slides while on generator power to determine if this was a one time chance issue related to the slide drive system that could have happened while on shore supply but by chance did not.
There is a chance that the slide had some mechanical locking issue or a 12V motor issue (given it is a 12V hydraulic drive) that some how cleared itself. While it could be a contactor issue at the transfer switch, I am more in the camp that a heavy electrical load for some unknown reason created the issue and the generator surge response.
Later Ed
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Ed,
I went to the coach today. In sequence here are pics of my Inverter/Charger and the Aladdin.
1. When I arrived at the coach. Nothing on, 120 volt plugged in to 20 amp receptacle. Before doing anything else, I put both LR slides out, using 12V power only.
2. Turned the generator on and let it run for 15 minutes. Picture is the Inverter/Charger showing GenSet turned on manually.
3. Turned on LR AC and the 120 ceiling light in the galley. Aladdin shows drawing 11 amps. AC and GenSet running fine, cooling as it should.
4. Attempted to extend a slide-out. Generator surged, Aladdin shut off. AC shut off, and the ceiling light went off. Slide-out would barely move an inch. And the Xantrax screen went totally blank and then showed this. (light at the top is off) The GenSet did not shut off.
5. Shut everything off, including the GenSet. Transfer switch put me back on shore power. Turned the GenSet on, and then the AC and ceiling light. Picture of the Aladdin after that. Same as before I tried to move the slide.
Before I left the coach, I moved the slides out and in, using only the house batteries and the 20 amp shore power.
Thanks,
Stan
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Stan,
One thing I noticed is the solar indicated 24V in one photo and 15V which is more inline with what might be expected in another. I am wondering if that high voltage solar condition is somehow triggering things to shut down. Has your screens always showed this kind of solar voltage variation and is that higher voltage occurring just when the genset is running?
One other test is to have both airs running with the genset given one leg has no load on your monitor screen. It is possible that the no load leg is the leg the inverter charger is on so it was not really tested with another load to see how the generator responded.
From your test it is clear that he genset is operating normally with the load on one leg that you put on it. If with the two air load the genset runs fine then it is also clear that moving the slides with the generator on is triggering some cascading repeatable effect that is shutting things down which I am afraid is some kind of overcurrent (shorting) condition or some kind of generator AC waveform change that the inverter charger cannot handle causing it to pull a lot of AC current.
The second test would be to turn off the inverter charger with the generator on supplying AC and see if the slide runs properly. That would tell you that this is strictly an interaction between the genset and the inverter and not actually any slide drive issue drawing excessive current.
You did not mention what voltage and what type of drive mechanism your slide uses. Also do you know if you have an electronic inverter type generator or a standard generator that supplies the AC?
One last possibility, there may be a setting on your Xantrex inverter charger where the 13V charge current could be set to a lower value to see if that eliminates the event. Not sure what the options are but if you can limit the inverter charge current to 50 amps as a test, while using the genset, and see what running the slide does. If that works it may provide a work around and some insight.
Later Ed
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Ed is far more experienced than I am so I would follow his advice. Another thought because I'm a little simple minded. The transfer switch (TS) itself is the only difference between the shore power and genny power in the 120AC power circuit in the coach. On one side shore power and/or generator power enter the TS. On the other side (maybe top and bottom) the 120VAC goes out to the coach. The coach doesn't care if it is coming from the gen or shore pedestal. Most coaches with an automatic TS default to generator power if shore and gen power are both active at the same time. Since your issue seems to be on gen power only, my Navy trouble shooting training tells me to start there. Since the TS switch is the first place that is different, working backwards, that is where I would start. I would unplug from any kind of shore power, start the genny and check the output of the TS, both 120VAC legs. Then go from there. If both 120 legs are good, you still may have a loose or corroded connection that will not pass the required amount of current to move your slides. I don't know what that current is. My coach has 3 electric slides and I just recently found out that if we try to operate two slides at once, only one will function. As soon as the one is completely in or out the other will start to move. Once you open the TS, make sure no power, genny or shore, is on and make sure all connections are tight in the TS.
Good luck and remember I'm not an expert.
Jerry
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Jerry,
I think you are using good logic from your experience and many times contacts are the issue causing erratic operation. In this case, I think if Stan can run the two roof airs, which are motor loads with high starting current using just the genset and the transfer switch contacts then that should rule out the transfer switch contactor issue as a source.
The slide 12V slide motor should represent a lighter load given the battery bank is also available as a DC power source then the 120V compressor motor starting load. I may end up with egg on my face but that is my logic here.... This is a strange one where I think the Xantrex becomes a load, pulling excessive current when the slide is activated, not sure why yet.
Later Ed
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Stan, Jerry, and Ed,
What are the chances that the movement of the slide is shorting the wire that is carrying power from the generator?
Gerald
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Another thought that comes to mind? Will the slides operate on battery power alone? Mine do. I don't like to do it because I perceive it as a significant drain on my batteries so I always hook or stay hooked to shore power when I extend or retract my slides. I still would rule out the TS before I spent a lot of time looking for other things. In my experience you can go nuts looking for things that don't exist and wind up right back where all it takes is a couple of readings on a VOM to be sure. It may be a short in the slide as Gerald suggested or a corroded connection at the generator itself on one leg. Or the way these beasts are it could be a corroded tail light wire! Just kidding about the tail light wire...I think!!
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Gerald, Jerry,
Gerald, good thought...The genset wire or a wire nut connector shorting when the slide moves is possible and could explain the heavy load just with movement and just using the genset. Stan could visual the wire ad see if it got pinched. On the generator end there is a coupling block with screw terminals under a cover on the top of the generator. On the other wire end there is a covered box in the back right of the bay where the generator connections are made. You could confirm that the wire connections are tight and corrosion free. On the generator end do not over tighten, there are lug screws in an aluminum block that could strip, just confirm they are tight and the wire is seated in the opening using a mirror and light....I am describing my own installation Stan, yours may be similar. You may or may now want to "get dirty" here, never know how far a person wants to get into these things....
Jerry, I was confirming the contactor quality of the TS with a more severe load test then the slide represents but there is more than one way to skin a cat, nothing wrong with Stan breaking out the meter if he prefers. You are right, one way or another there is a need to verify that the contacts in the TS are not the issue.
Later Ed
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Lots of stuff here to disseminate. I will go to the coach this afternoon and try some of the suggestions here, and report what I find. I'm no electrician, and although I have a VOM, the readings are Greek to me. Might be time to bring in "Bob the Electrician", who has helped me out many times.
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If you are not comfortable around electricity then it sounds to me that you have a good plan! Call Bob! 120 at 50 or so amps would definitely ruin your day. All it takes is one mistake and you can do serious damage to the coach and more importantly, YOU!!
Good luck
Jerry
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Here are the results from today.
With genset off, and no shore power plugged in, the slides moved in and out with no problem. 1st picture
With genset and both AC running (see 2nd picture) activating the slide caused 1) the inverter to shut off 2) the AC (both) to shut off 3) the Aladdin to shut off 4) genset remained running. The slide out moved about half way out before grinding to a halt.
After turning off both AC, the inverter and the Aladdin came back on. The Aladdin showed this screen immediately after I activated the slide. (picture 3) The voltage on the Solar charger also spiked. I turned off the genset, and the slide moved back in with just battery power.
I turned off the inverter/charger and had only the genset on. No AC running. Again, as soon as I activated the slide, the Aladdin shut off, and the slide would barely move. I turned the genset off, turned the inverter/charger back on, and the slide moved, but very slow. I plugged back in to shore power, and got the same Open Ground error message on the Aladdin, and then after a few seconds, the shore power connected. The slides moved fine after that, without the genset on.
Two times, while I was cycling between the genset and the shore power, when turning the generator back on, the Aladdin would show 'Power Delay Active' then this screen (picture 4) would come on for a few seconds before showing, 'GenSet Power Selected'. Notice the 60 amps. The AC was not running. Notice the spike in Solar Charge voltage. Picture 5 shows the inverter/charger status when I left the coach.
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Stan,
It almost has to be that the slide movement is causing a connection to fail in the generator cable/connections as Gerald suggested. The slide motors get their 12v power via the inverter. If wired like my 07, power for front (hydraulic) and rear (electric) slide motors is supplied by a single wire each. The slide circuit doesn't see or care if the 12v is generated via batteries, shore/inverter or generator/inverter. Since your problem doesn't happen when on batteries and everything seems to run on generator power except the slides, it seems to follow that the slide movement is causing the problem.
Some questions to help better understand this;
1. Does problem occur when moving any slide or just one or 2? Which ones?
2. Once the problem has occurred, (eg trying to extend slide), have you turned off the generator and extended the slide completely and then restarted generator? Does it run and power ACs, etc? If so, have you tried retracting slides with the generator running? Does the problem occur and if so, when (what is slide position)?
Steve
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Stan,
Wow, this is like the Holy Grail of RV electrical problems.... Stan, you are doing a very good job of providing information and experimental results that we can go on.
What we know...
We know that there is only one condition that induces the fail, generator running, generator powering the coach AC wise (transfer switch closed using generator side), main slide switch activated with 12V and slide moving.
We know that the slide 12V side has no interruptions and runs well electrically and mechanically on battery/inverter not inducing any abnormally high 12V loads.
We know that the generator and transfer switch work well and can handle the load of two ACs, so having the normal slide 12V load added to any inverter charging load should not cause any overload current issue to the generator.
I think we know that the slide stopping issue is AC load induced with a 60 amp (or more) overcurrent when running just the generator. I think this overcurrent is also causing the inverter charger to shut down. This piece is a bit puzzling in that the batteries will run the slide slowly without the inverter normally, so somehow the DC side seems affected, I think pulled down with lower then 12v output stopping the slide. At the same time the solar charger DC voltage seems to get wonky during the slide movement activation/stoppage. That voltage may be seen on the output side of the solar charger but may arrive at that point from the chassis side of the wiring.
If we go on the physical movement of the slide inducing the fail (short or lose connection maybe) and not a load issue, as Gerald and Steve proposed, then what is the movement link? Stan, where is your generator located on your coach and is there any generator AC cable movement when the slide moves? Is there any AC wire/cable being pinched or crimped by the slide movement? This is a very good possibility with physical movement.
Either with movement or without AC wire movement, can you, with all power off, remove the cover where the AC wiring goes into the genset and check those connections into the terminal block from the genset side and the coach side for tightness, corrosion, or shorting. Due to generator vibration these terminal block screws can loosen and the copper wire can crush some with age being a soft metal and leave the connection less mechanically secure. Just moderate pressure on these screws, do not "crank them down". Then follow that AC wire from the generator and the other end should have wire nut connections in a metal box that also needs to be verified as tight corrosion free and the wire nuts should be taped or retaped when done checking. While looking there is usually a metal screw clamp to hold the AC wires, make sure that has not been clamped so tight that the Ac wire insulation is compromised at the clamp. My thinking was that if the genset can run two AC units then the AC wire connections were in pretty good shape but that is true for just the load and neutral legs.
Perhaps a loose ground from the genset end could allow the chassis and frame to "float" voltage wise causing the charger to erroneously kick in pulling major current from the batteries and that kills the slide movement. Check both the generator AC ground wire and the DC ground wire for good connections and also the ground and neutral wires at the transfer switch (along with the other+sides) for solid connections. If the voltage from the charger spikes up due to the ground reference voltage moving, the batteries are a very low impedance and can absorb or provide a lot of current which may be where the 60 amp 120V AC load is going. I cannot think of another place that current might go without burning something up or ruining what is already a loose connection. The slide coming to a stop on the DC side, which should be independent of the AC side, needs to be explained with a cause as part of this problem.
Stan, I read your post last night but decided to sleep on it....this problem is really a puzzle. If there is no AC cable movement with the slide movement, due to where things are mounted, then we are probably on the right path with some ground or neutral connection issue, given that the Alladin data has both the AC (current) and DC side (voltage) affected.
Checking the connections discussed is not wasted time even if you find them tight. Last summer I had one of the + side generator output wires come loose and we lost one AC output leg in the coach due to generator vibration and a partially stripped terminal block screw being over tightened at some prior point in the coaches life. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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We know that there is only one condition that induces the fail, generator running, generator powering the coach AC wise (transfer switch closed using generator side), main slide switch activated with 12V and slide moving.
One correction, Ed. Main slide switch activated with the both or one AC off produces the same symptoms.
Thanks for the wonderful help. I have called 'Bob the Electrician".
Stan
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Stan,
Not sure how wonderful our help is at this point.... It is sometimes pretty hard to imagine from a distance what is wrong without some hands on time...this is one of those times. Maybe between, Jerry, Gerald, Steve, and my inputs we have gotten lucky sorting out what might be the root cause and it will help Bob. Good luck with Bob's troubleshooting, we will all be curious what he finds...
Later Ed
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I had my generator serviced in June in preparation for our trip starting next week. I called them and suggested that when they had the genset out on the slide out for service, they may have crimped a wire or cable or something. They have asked me to bring it in today.
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Interesting I wonder if they crossed a wire like a neutral and ground? Have them check..
Later Ed
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I feel pretty sheepish making this post, but it's only fair to everyone here who tired to help.
Took the coach to my service center today, as they requested, and they diagnosed the problem in minutes after watching me run through the issues putting slides out and in; and after I told them, that today moving the coach for the first time from my storage since I had it in for service last, the "wait to travel" light on the dash was on, and there was no power to the HWH leveling system. (I have air leveling only). The tech said, "this is strictly a 12V issue. Either a corroded or loose connection with the batteries would be my first guess." We opened the battery bay, and he pointed out 4 swollen house batteries, indicating they were not getting a charge or holding one. He said the 14.4V I was showing on the inverter and the Aladdin were from the plug in, not from the batteries. Arranged for 4 new house batteries, and we should be good to go. The last time I checked them was when we left Chattanooga on the way home last March. (they were on my to-do list before leaving this time. I just didn't think of them) They were new when we bought the coach, 4-1/2 years ago, and I'm guessing the dealer used inexpensive as he could find.
Lesson learned. Thanks for all of everyone's patience and help.
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Stan,
Glad it was something simple and it is getting fixed. I thought about the batteries but could not rationalize all the symptoms being a battery issue. No need to feel sheepish, we all learn together.
Later Ed
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Stan,
Glad they found something.
Ed,
Not sure I completely understand how this fits the symptoms. The house batteries could source enough current to run the slides when no charger or inverter/charger was connected but with generator connected, they sinked 60amps+ when trying to drive the slides and were unable to source the needed slide current. Did the "unlimited" current source from the generator effectively swamp the batteries while the inverter/charger was unable to supply enough current to swamp them?
Steve
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Steve,
I think the batteries when just sitting on charge, they would absorb some current, but with little ability to generate reserve capacity I would guess. Just enough to run the slide. Stan said it ran but was slow.
I think when you started the generator, that pulled current from the limited capacity battery bank, and then when the charger is online with both bad batteries sinking some current and then when you add the slide load it dragged the 12v battery voltage low enough to cause things to shut down. One or more 12V batteries with a shorted cell are a huge current sink, due to the low impedance, rather then provide a reserve current with capacity.
There may be more to this story before it is over but starting with good batteries is a prerequisite to sorting what may be next. That is the best I have and it still may not be an answer for all the symptoms.
Later Ed
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It was the 6V house batteries that are bad. There are 4 of them.
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Stan, glad to see that you have found a problem. It sure sounds like you were due for batteries! Like Ed, I'm not sure you have found the final solution to your issue. Stranger things have happened though. My fingers are crossed for you!!
Jerry
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Battery issues cause weird occurrences. I recently replaced the 4 house batteries and the two chassis batteries at the same time. The 4 house were swelled and using a ton of water, and the chassis were not kept up with while in a shop for 3 1/2 months. Money I guess well spent, charging good now and using no water at all.
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Update:
This is going to turn out to be an expensive lesson in watching condition of house batteries.
As I mentioned, moving the coach for the first time since this 12V problem occurred, I saw the "wait to travel" light on the dash, and the keypad for the HWH air leveling didn't work.
My service center replaced the house batteries and all is well with the 12V system again...except...the surges of amps to 60+ apparently fried the control panel for the HWH. My service center says the cost for a new one is $1900.00. I have calls in to BCS and NW RV Surplus to see what their prices are, if any.
If anyone has a part # for it, so I can do my own research, that would be helpful. Or if you know of a different source. Would it do me any good to call HWH direct?
Thanks.
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Stan,
Are you sure that the control wire to your HWH panel did not just come loose, either completely or partially? The are well known for that happening.
If you want help in troubleshooting the system, call HWH technical support. They are very helpful, but be patient because you will usually have to leave your number, and they call you back in from a few hours to a day or so.
Gerald
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Stan,
Are you sure that the control wire to your HWH panel did not just come loose, either completely or partially? The are well known for that happening.
If you want help in troubleshooting the system, call HWH technical support. They are very helpful, but be patient because you will usually have to leave your number, and they call you back in from a few hours to a day or so.
Gerald
Gerald,
I went to the coach today and took the panel (the one with the pads you touch for leveling) off. I wanted to get a part # to try to source a new one. A picture of the back of it is below. I checked the 5 pin connector, and it was seated good. I made sure I seated it solid when I put it back. Is there a chance that its the HWH box that's in the electrical bay? Or a relay was blown instead of the board?
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Stan,
Seems funny that the panel / slides worked while you were having the problem (and sourcing 60 amps) before replacing the batteries and after replacing the batteries the unit is suddenly inoperative. Suggest you call HWH and or get a 2nd opinion at another repair facility.
Steve
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When I was a the coach today, the slides were working fine. The only thing not working is the HWH air leveling. I know its in travel mode, but the dash light says "wait to travel" because there is no power to the control board/keypad.
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Stan,
Sorry, I read leveling but thought slides. Could be a fuse or relay if there is no 12v to the control panel. Try contacting Ken at BCS or Monaco Tech Support (877)-466-6226 option 3 in addition to HWH.
Steve
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Stan,
If the cable at the control panel has a good contact, there is not much of a chance that you will be able to fix it without help from the technical support people at HWH. I would call them first thing in the morning.
Gerald
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Stan
I don't have HWH but our coach has Valid Power Gear and my control panel quit. I called tech support and after a series of tests the tech said I needed a new control board. Cost for a new board was over $900.
I was able to find a new control board on Ebay for a little over $200. Check with NW Supply also.
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My tech, and I have talked to HWH and I found out that my tech has all of their testing manuals. There is power to the relay. There is no power to the control board. All testing scenarios lead to "replace board". Originally, I thought the problem was the touch pad board. That is not the case. It's the main board that is in the double case hung from the ceiling in the electrical bay. Because we have air-leveling only, this is a rarely called for item and is expensive.
I found a HWH dealer who has a used one. He will sell it to me for $1140.00 plus shipping. He has tested it as far as he can without it being connected to an air only leveling system. All is good. He agreed to this: if it doesn't solve my problem, he will take it back, and credit the $1140.00 on a new one.
Comments welcome.
Edit: We decided to just get the new one. Warranty from HWH.