Author Topic: Safety Concerns ,possible fire Cat C-13 Charged Air Cooler  (Read 3372 times)

Dave Atherton

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Safety Concerns ,possible fire Cat C-13 Charged Air Cooler
« on: November 19, 2020, 05:24:56 AM »
Safety Concern: Possible Fire started from charged air to air cooler Caterpillar C-13 side radiator.

Roy Warren’s C13 experienced low power and was in a shop for a stuck turbo wastegate but the service shop could not locate the low power problem. They then traveled 2000 miles with problem getting worse.  Roy and Vicki bought their motorhome to Dave’s Diesel in Quartzsite. AZ. We connected the Cat ET to their Caterpillar C-13 looking for fault codes pertaining the low power problem but found nothing out of place after reading out engine ECM data. Vicki then asked Roy if he had told Dave about the high noise and smell of burning rubber. Vicki went on to explain every time she would go to the back of motorhome while Roy was driving something did not seem right.

Thanks to Vicki’s information Dave changed subject and suggested low power root cause could be due to the charged air cooler (via the rubber hose coupling from charged air cooler piping or a crack in charged air cooler). The next morning we started inspection and tear down. This is what we found.

The discharge tube coming from the turbo charger to intake to the charged air cooler (note: heated air from turbo charger enters the CAC at temperature from 330 Deg F to 400 Deg F). The problem or point of possible fire location was the piping and rubber connector boot jamming tight into top corner just behind driver side rear wheel. Dave could see with a flash light the silver rubber backed sound suppression was charred and the corner rubber melted, charred as well as  warped metal on top and side toward rear wheel. That said, it is totally impossible to reach the band clamps connecting the rubber connection boot to the CAC.
Not liking what we were looking at and unable to reach the problem area we decided, after talking with Roy and Vicki, to cut an access opening under the bed to reach the band clamps on rubber boot. What we found was the heat conduction from a hole in rubber boot to CAC along and a crack within the CAC itself. The heat warped the metal as indicated above and about a 12 inch area of carpet under the bed was discolored due to the heat with the rubber backing on carpet melted. This is the source of burning rubber Vicki smelled.

Fast forward to now and both Dave and Gale, his partner, verified that with poor builder design and lack of understanding (The What happen If , happened ) nobody ever dreamed a rubber hose would break down over a period of years along with crack in the CAC resulting in blowing
extreme heated air directly into the rubber sound suppression after melting rubber approximately 1 inch in thickness in top outside corner and warping metal and conduction of heat to under carpet inside of motorhome under bed.
Dave would suggest owners of any motorhome with side radiator take a real close look at the CAC piping connection boot and connection to CAC and area in the top outside corner for any signs of discoloring of the sound suppression foam of charred blackness directly in the top corner. 
Lastly the installation of a CAC with a 200 pound hydraulic fan fasten on top of the it and bottom of radiator without the hydraulic fan being supported independently of the radiator is a very poorly thought out design.

In closing, as our coaches age problems are starting to surface. Also Thanks to Vicki Warren for  pointing us in the right direction by relating something weird that gave us the additional information about a problem that had the making for a very bad ending.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 07:50:27 PM by Steve Huber Co-Admin »

Catrina Brossart

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Re: Safety Concerns ,possible fire Cat C-13 Charged Air Cooler
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2020, 06:43:02 PM »
We just recently had the same boot fail on us and had to replace it. We have also had the bracket holding the side monstrosity fail.  Brian built some custom brackets to mount it more securely.  We have only had our Beaver about a year but seem to be stumbling on a lot of random weaknesses.  Pretty sure we put more miles on it than any of the owners before us.   
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Bill Lampkin

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Re: Safety Concerns ,possible fire Cat C-13 Charged Air Cooler
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2020, 09:35:13 PM »
How many affected '05 Patriot Thunder are over 40' (42-44ft), or, any issues with 40' (short wheelbase) chassis?
2005 Patriot Thunder Lexington, 3 slides
40' tag axle (short wheelbase)
525 hp C13

"Goin where the weather suits my clothes..."

Gene Obie

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Re: Safety Concerns ,possible fire Cat C-13 Charged Air Cooler
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2020, 10:11:03 PM »
Does the same concern hold for 2005 Marquis with C13?
-Gene

2005 Beaver Marquis, Ruby 40, C-13 Cat 525HP, Allison 4k
Towing 2018 F-150
Washington

Dave Atherton

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Re: Safety Concerns ,possible fire Cat C-13 Charged Air Cooler
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2020, 11:41:17 PM »
Gentleman, it is my suggestion what has happen with the CAC goes beyond the just
2005 Caterpillar C-13. Looking very close at Roy and Vicky Warrens motorhome, the
CAC had to be carried over to other models by looking very close at replacement CAC
brackets custom made for the Monaco. One thing I can relate about problems with CAC
cracking with aluminum construction, the CAC is meant to float within the mounting.
This is a lesson the RV builder failed to understand and replacement CAC are meant to
fail because the mounting bolts top and bottom along with the hydraulic fan attached
to the radiator mounting assembly, where the weight of the hydraulic fan assembly
should be independent of the radiator and CAC. To answer another question about failure
of the rubber connect boot CAC piping to The CAC direct from the turbo charger. Looking
at the silver backed sound suppression 1 inch thickness foam directly next to a failed
components. What we preformed with Warrens CAC repair, cutting a fire proof welding
blanket and doubled wrapped the rubber connector boot and top of the CAC. if failure
would ever occur again the extreme heat would be contained within the CAC and rubber
connection boot. Last, problem area is the tube from the turbo connection direct to the
CAC ( is it stuffed into corner and next to the sound suppression foam ) in closing, never
assume that this will not happen but if it does happen going down the road it most likely
to late to contain the fire.  Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

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Roy Warren Co-Admin

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Re: Safety Concerns ,possible fire Cat C-13 Charged Air Cooler
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2020, 05:56:12 AM »
My guess is yes, there are many more Beavers out there with this same set-up.  To check yours, you can look into the engine and determine what is supporting the fan assembly.  If it looks like something at the top of the charge air cooler  is the support for the fan assembly, then it is most likely a lip sticking out from the charge air cooler which is providing that support.  Take a look and see if you can tell.  Then if it is supported by the charge air cooler, be aware of the possible failure or cracking in the charge air cooler.  This stress or strain can cause cracks just because of vibration and that will come from the fan working and the road itself.  Just for your information, the C5 cargo aircraft for the Air Force developed stress cracks in the wing mounts from the vibration of the turbines in the engines and began failing well before there expected lifetime.
Roy Warren
Roy Warren
2005 Patriot Thunder
Cat C-13

Bill Lampkin

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Re: Safety Concerns ,possible fire Cat C-13 Charged Air Cooler
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2020, 02:32:57 PM »
Roy, What is the length of your coach?
2005 Patriot Thunder Lexington, 3 slides
40' tag axle (short wheelbase)
525 hp C13

"Goin where the weather suits my clothes..."

Vicki Warren

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Re: Safety Concerns ,possible fire Cat C-13 Charged Air Cooler
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2020, 03:20:42 PM »
Bill, The Warren's coach is a 42" Thunder.
Vicki Warren
2005 Patriot Thunder Vicksburg
CAT-C13
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Mike Shumack

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Re: Safety Concerns ,possible fire Cat C-13 Charged Air Cooler
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2020, 02:41:11 PM »
To check yours, you can look into the engine and determine what is supporting the fan assembly.  If it looks like something at the top of the charge air cooler  is the support for the fan assembly, then it is most likely a lip sticking out from the charge air cooler which is providing that support.  Take a look and see if you can tell. 

Then if it is supported by the charge air cooler, be aware of the possible failure or cracking in the charge air cooler.  This stress or strain can cause cracks just because of vibration and that will come from the fan working and the road itself. 
Roy Warren

I can't tell if the fan/shroud assembly has the "lip" you're talking about or not. I would think our Coaches are all the same (all 2005 PTs).
Is your post just to say "keep an eye" on this?

I'm not sure what else could be done. I would have to dissemble to see the condition of the CAC. How is the fan shroud mounted to the CAC? I don't see any bolt heads (maybe Beaver used studs welded to the fan shroud?). I hope it is not just hanging off the top lip of the CAC and held with red-RTV on the sides.
 
I do have engine boost displayed on my dash mounted "Scan Gauge D" so I know I can make plenty of boost - which means, if there are any cracks or leaks, they are small.

Larry Fisk

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Re: Safety Concerns ,possible fire Cat C-13 Charged Air Cooler
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2020, 03:36:27 PM »
Just Curious, what is considered normal Turbo Boost on a 525 CAT? Mine usually runs between 42 to 44 pounds when pulling a hill. Since you mentioned loss of pressure as an indication of CAC problem it would be good to know if this pressure is pretty normal or not.
Thank You,
Larry Fisk
Larry Fisk
2005 Patriot Thunder 40 ft.
525 (C-13) CAT Engine

Mike Shumack

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Re: Safety Concerns ,possible fire Cat C-13 Charged Air Cooler
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2020, 03:49:27 PM »
Larry, with the engine serial number you can get the "engine test results" (all the pressures, measurements, etc. during the test) for you engine. Dave or a CAT mechanic could get the report for you.

My engine boost was 48 psi when tested by CAT on their dyno (that would be under full load, which we/you may not see often).

I installed a "Scan Gauge D" which I setup to display boost. So far the highest I've seen is around 44 psi. That was on a trip through the GA-NC-VA mountains, which had some hills that showed my engine load at 100%.  I don't recall ever seeing 48 psi on the display. Next trip I'll pay more attention to the max boost number.


Larry Fisk

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Re: Safety Concerns ,possible fire Cat C-13 Charged Air Cooler
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2020, 04:01:37 PM »
Thank you for the info Mike, I appreciate it. As you know we have had issues with our cooling system. Our fan bracket broke while traveling home to Alaska while we were in Canada. When the bracket broke it allowed the fan to be driven into the radiator. Destroyed the radiator, fan, and other things in the engine compartment. Once it was all repaired we made our way to Anchorage, AK and I had the CAT dealer there build me a bullet proof bracket out of boxed steel. It's all documented here on the forum. I am sure thankful for the awareness issue noted in this thread. It's good information for the safety of our coaches and us.
Larry Fisk
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 06:27:10 PM by Larry Fisk »
Larry Fisk
2005 Patriot Thunder 40 ft.
525 (C-13) CAT Engine

Dave Atherton

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Re: Safety Concerns ,possible fire Cat C-13 Charged Air Cooler
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2020, 09:55:14 PM »
Mike, your CAC is the same as Roy and Vicky Warren, looking close at left top of picture number 1.
What you are looking at is the bracket supporting the hydraulic fan assembly. Which is telling you
the weight of the hydraulic fan is pulling down on the CAC and  supported on the radiator bottom. Cannot see to the top inside corner on right of picture number 1 if sound suppression 1 inch foam
is still in place or melted away. The real concern is the top right corner where the CAC connects to the rubber boot to CAC. Last cracked or failed rubber connection boot depending on size of crack on the
CAC you will still be getting boost pressure but slowly loosing power. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic