Author Topic: Xantrex Echo Charger Alternative  (Read 12985 times)

Edward Buker

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Xantrex Echo Charger Alternative
« on: January 16, 2014, 12:07:42 AM »
Some folks including myself have had decent luck with the Xantrex echo charger. The discounted cost is approx. $110 for that unit. If you read any of the marine forums however, many have had problems with the fact that the Xantrex Echo Charger is not a sealed unit and exposure to salt water or high humidity has caused fails. Our environment in our RVs is a bit better but we have moisture issues and battery fumes to deal with. If I was to replace the current unit I would strongly consider this echo type unit from Sterling because it it is a sealed unit, can handle more current, the circuitry dynamics are a bit more sophisticated, and the charge profile can be set for AGM etc. It also has sealed fuse holders, and it has a full two year warranty. The discounted cost at this site is $176 if added to your cart. That is a higher price than the Xantrex unit but I think the difference is money well spent if you are going to hang onto your coach.

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C2289962%7C2295772&id=2086407

Later Ed

Edward Buker

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Re: Xantrex Echo Charger Alternative
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2014, 04:08:40 PM »
The instruction set for most of these marine battery combining systems wiring is reversed from what an RV would use. They are typically combing the house bank while underway using an alternator as the charging source from the starting battery bank. For our case we are combining the starting battery bank from the house bank given our main charger feeds the house bank and is usually on. The isolator unit handles feeding the alternator output to both battery banks when our engines are running(this is the non Big Boy case).


The Sterling product in this thread is unique in that it does not just connect the batteries it actually tailors the charging voltage profile to the type of battery and enables a float mode when fully charged. You can have lead acid batteries for your house battery bank for example and AGM for starting batteries. You set the charge profile mode one time during set up using a magnet given it is a sealed unit.


One more less expensive marine quality option comes from Blue Seas. This is a very simple unit with some advantages and disadvantages. It is simply a relay combiner with a circuit that combines the battery banks. For our situation it would combine when the house battery bank exceeds 13V, and disconnects the two banks at 12.75V. Think of it as basically running jumper cables with automated voltage connect and disconnect. It will handle up to 120 amps so you have to fuse it and wire it to handle that load. The unit is a sealed unit and Blue Seas makes very high quality devices. It is inexpensive at $75. The disadvantage is the fuse and wiring has to handle 120A (8GA or better for short distances). The advantage is that the chassis batteries would charge more quickly if the house bank is not low at the same time and it is a very simple system.

http://www.bluesea.com/products/7611/BatteryLink_Automatic_Charging_Relay_-_12V_24V_DC_120A

Later Ed

Stan Simpson

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Re: Xantrex Echo Charger Alternative
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2014, 05:42:57 PM »
Ed,

Thanks for the information. I'm totally ignorant when it comes to electricity and electronics. I've read countless discussions on here regarding Echo chargers, charging chassis batteries while plugged in, etc.

Can you tell me how I would find out if I have this Echo thingy? Also, since I know my chassis batteries do not charge while plugged in, I assume I don't have one, or it doesn't work. Perhaps a picture of one?

There is a box on the ceiling of one of my bays that says Xantrex on it. Could that be it? Or is that my inverter/charger? There is also a Inverter control box of some sort in the electrical bay. Clue me in, please.

Stan
Stan Simpson & Becky Glover & Moe the cat
2005 Monterey Laguna IV
C9 400 Cat
Honda CRV toad

Edward Buker

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Re: Xantrex Echo Charger Alternative
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2014, 09:43:39 PM »
Stan,

Mine is located on the left wall of my battery compartment above the battery level so that fumes are not prevalent there. It is almost certain to be within the battery compartment unless someone installed it themselves elsewhere. It is about a 6 inch by 6inch by 2 inch metal box that you are looking for. Photo here...

http://www.starmarinedepot.com/xantrex-heart-echo-charge.html?gclid=COe2zM3Ug7wCFcFj7AodFnEAXQ

Later Ed

Keith Oliver

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Re: Xantrex Echo Charger Alternative
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2014, 09:58:05 PM »
Mine was on the right side wall of the battery bay, just above the batteries.  about 4"x4"x1".  It has LED indicators.  Mine were off, due to the unit being NG.  I now have the Blue Seas thing Ed mentioned.  Seems to work.  Nothing in the literature that came with it suggested adding a fuse, so I don't have one, so its total cost was low.

Gerald Farris

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Re: Xantrex Echo Charger Alternative
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2014, 03:15:45 AM »
Stan,
Your coach did not come equipped with an Echo Charger. It came equipped with a "Bird" system to accomplish the necessary battery charging and isolation functions.

Gerald

Joel Ashley

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Re: Xantrex Echo Charger Alternative
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2014, 06:26:48 AM »
Stan-

To see what Gerald is referring to, check the link below, then open the metal cabinet above your battery tray, between the Chassis and House master switches.  The BIRD (Bidirectional Isolator Relay Delay) could be mounted on the inside of that cabinet door like on our Monterey.  http://randkproducts.com/product_info.php?products_id=546

Xantrex inverters have had their share of issues until quite recently.  Our Monterey is only a year newer than yours, but has the Magnum rather than a Xantrex, and it hangs from a bay ceiling as yours does.  The device in your electrical bay may be similar to ours - a control module for the automatic generator start associated with your Xantrex.  If your chassis bats aren't charging, it might be the charger in the Xantrex or the BIRD unit.  

I'm not as versed in this stuff as well as others here, but would hazard to guess that if your coach bats charge off park power okay, but your chassis set doesn't, then your BIRD is the culprit.  That said, it is common for the problem to merely be loose wire connections on the BIRD, as some BAC members have discovered.

Joel
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat

Edward Buker

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Re: Xantrex Echo Charger Alternative
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2014, 02:49:50 PM »
Gerald,

Thanks for the insight. Glad you can keep all these models and years straight as to what is in them. We are doomed if you get senile :-)...I am somewhat in the dark given that I am working from a 1989 Contessa and a 2002 Marquis knowledge base for the most part.

Many times a photo of the suspected problem area helps us visualize what is installed and what you are seeing or not seeing.

Keith,

The Blue Seas info of page two here shows fuse and wire size to be used depending on the charge current. The schematic shows fuse symbols in each lead going to the battery banks. (symbol is like an S shape). I think this is a general practice in case there was a short at one of the battery banks. The unshorted bank would be asked to supply massive current going from one bank to the other which would be enough to destroy this system and melt it down creating a possible electrical fire.

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/990170140.pdf

If the main unit was mounted on a non conductive material I could talk myself into one fuse being sufficient in one of the lines. These fuses and holders are inexpensive if you decide to add one. I mentioned 8 GA wire before and that is capable of the current handling in short lengths but I thing 4 GA or so would be better. The Blues Seas table of wire size is overkill for the lengths of wire we would be using in our installs. There is also a 10 amp fuse in the only ground line.

Later Ed
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 03:21:47 PM by 910 »

Stan Simpson

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Re: Xantrex Echo Charger Alternative
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2014, 02:53:40 AM »
Quote from: Gerald Farris
Stan,
Your coach did not come equipped with an Echo Charger. It came equipped with a "Bird" system to accomplish the necessary battery charging and isolation functions.

Gerald

Holy Moly, thank you Gerald! I have pretty much ignored all of the many posts regarding "bird systems". I think I will try to pay attention from now on. Thank you Ed and Joel for your input. This forum is such a wealth of information. Its very much appreciated.

Stan

Stan Simpson & Becky Glover & Moe the cat
2005 Monterey Laguna IV
C9 400 Cat
Honda CRV toad

Keith Oliver

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Re: Xantrex Echo Charger Alternative
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2014, 02:18:50 PM »
Ed
Thanks for the heads up.  I took out an Echo charger with fuses on each of the tiny wires that connected it.  I installed a Bird with fat wires.  That is a completely different animal.  No fuses though, which I will correct.

That makes the Bird system look like it is actually capable of putting some amps into the chassis batteries, as opposed to the Echo.  What is it capable of doing, with NO fat wires?  Glad I switched!  And of course I am grateful you have the knowledge and are willing to share it!.

Bill Sprague

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Re: Xantrex Echo Charger Alternative
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2014, 03:34:16 PM »
My son has an aging Fleetwood Flair.  The engine start battery was often dead even thought he kept it plugged in when not using it.  There is no evidence of any system on it that was supposed to keep the engine start battery charged.

We installed a different brand of "echo charger" called a Trik-L-Start  (http://www.lslproducts.net/TLSPage.html.  They are only $50.  

It is a solid state battery to battery charger.  When the house batteries are at operating voltage and need no additional charge, the Trik-L-Start engages and applies a charge voltage to the start batteries.  

It has worked without flaw on Andy's Flair for several years now.  If my relatively expensive Intelitech Big Boy/BIRD system failed and the repair was expensive, I would consider the Trik-L-Start.

Edward Buker

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Re: Xantrex Echo Charger Alternative
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2014, 04:18:47 PM »
Keith,

There are plusses and minuses to each charging approach. The Echo Charger has circuitry in it that limits the current to 15 amps max and so if there was a massive short that put a big demand on the battery banks, the current flow that is supplied from the house side through the Echo Charger, is limited and protected by the circuits and backed up by fuse protection. The minus here as you point out is that the charge current is low and it would take a longer time to charge the starting bank if it was down. For the most part the job we ask the Echo Charger to do is to supply a few amps as a maintenance charger and for that task it does a good job.

The other approach is to just use a switch (large solenoid) and close it or open it at certain voltage levels. It is a simple system. I have installed one on a friends boat before, the Blue Seas version. It keeps the batteries well charged and can bring a battery up in charge much more quickly then  a maintenance charger. The "fat wire"s are a must here because there is no current limiting and this approach can be considered a maintenance charger as well as a high current charger when needed. Along with the no current limiting comes the need for some form of fuse protection. You may never need it but it is a good idea.....as they say cheap insurance. What you want is an ANL fuse holder and I would use a 100amp ANL fuse here.

Now a real story about battery current and what it can do....in the 80s I had bought a twin engine sedan flybridge boat from just north of New York city. It had twin GM 350CI engines and maintenance was not one of the owners strong points, but it was a nice boat and only a few years old. Myself and several friends were up for an adventure, so we picked the boat up late in the day and headed out for the 200 mile trip up the Hudson River and the Champlain Canal into the lake. I won't go into all the misadventures on the trip, one involving a ball of fire from a propane stove installed by the prior owner with no gas regulator! One can consider a gas regulator as somewhat of a fuse for gas, it would have certainly limited the size of the fire ball when we first tried the stove out to heat up some stew.... needless to say we walked from the marina and found a pizza place where one of us was ordering pizza without much of his eyebrows left... luckily it wasn't me. Funny how guys can laugh about this and wives cannot see the humor in all this.

When we finally arrived, after our 200 mile trip, I tied the boat to the dock. When I went down the next day, I went to start the engines and nothing, not even a click. After a bit of investigation I found that the 12V battery post and terminal was melted on the starting battery bank and was no longer connected. In this case the lead post was the fuse. Very puzzling and very lucky that there was no fire involved. What had happened is an ignition wire, the one responsible for cranking one engine had come loose from a terminal on the key switch in the dash and by chance had fallen against a hot lug on a one of those little metal can thermal breakers mounted below it, the breaker was like the ones used in our electrical bay. That had cranked the engine until it actually melted off the battery terminals. That cost me a starter, some new batteries, and some wiring. Since that incident I have always have had a healthy respect for the current flow that these batteries are capable of delivering and what it can do if it is not tamed by a fuse.

later Ed

Joel Ashley

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Re: Xantrex Echo Charger Alternative
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2014, 11:14:16 PM »
Ditto here Ed.

Going over the hill from Redding to Eureka in our old '84 Pace Arrow one year, we smelled smoke.  I luckily was near a rare pullout on that winding road, and pulled over.  Opening the "hood" I found the chassis battery positive post melting, and about asphyxiated trying to see exactly what was up through the acrid smoke.  Somehow I managed to stop the meltdown because things were smoking pretty badly and fire or battery explosion were no doubt imminent.  It all happened so quickly, I don't remember what I did;  probably reefed off the negative cable to kill the chassis as a ground for the short, wherever it was.  Somewhere along the line I added a mechanical cutoff blade switch to a battery post, so if that was on it then and had not melted or welded shut, I would have popped it open.  As a relative RV newbie at the time, I think I surprised myself at how fast my feeble brain worked - thank goodness for having grown up on a farm as I was never inherently mechanically inclined, no doubt much to Dad's consternation.  A passing CHIP called a tow company (this was before cell phones) and we were towed back to Redding that evening, then towed to a recommended auto electric shop the next morning, a day or two before Labor Day weekend.  

The repair guy was kind-natured and seemed up to the task, which entailed patching some wires midway along the chassis frame where they'd shorted out.  He worked on it over the holiday weekend to help get us on our way.  And we were off again, this time opting to go north up I-5 toward home where I had to be back to work Tuesday.  That was Sunday before Labor Day.  We get to Roseburg's fairgrounds RV park and I crawl under the coach to see the repair up close, because some vehicle components weren't operating correctly for some reason.  Okay, what I saw under there wasn't going to settle my grits.  I got lucky and the Roseburg auto parts was open Labor Day, the only open store in town.  I bought tons of wire, including about 30 feet of heavy red battery cable and connectors, and did most of the imminently necessary re-repair myself, spending most of the day at it.

Turns out the Fleetwood factory in Riverside, CA, had a reputation for stringing wire.  When they came to the end of a spool, they spliced in another of any available color, and kept going.  And they stretched wire to make it reach.  Several looms of wires, maybe 15 or 20 of varying sizes wire tied together, went from up front to mid-coach where a large hole was cut through the main chassis frame streetside beam along the outside of which they'd been strung up to that point.  They went through the hole, across the chassis to the inside of the other main chassis frame beam, along it for a few feet, then the wires split up, some going back to rear lights and such and others up through the floor to the converter under a dinette seat.  In order to make everything reach, the installer had pulled the loom tight.

Remember that hole in the chassis frame?  They'd actually used a torch on the heavy steel, not a drill, and they not only didn't bother to rubber grommet the hole, they didn't even file or paint its jagged edges, nor was any black plastic loom protectand tubing used for that section.  #12 wires pulled tight against such a thing don't survive much road travel, and once one of them had its insulation rubbed off and shorted against the rail, the heat melted adjoining wires' insulation, shorting them as well.  The coup de resista'nce was when the insulation on the big fat (#00?) battery cable melted, shorting the 30 foot generator start line.  The current running through that really did in the battery post it was fastened to.  If a fire hadn't started there, it would have at the short point under the middle of the coach.

The Redding tech had patched a bunch of wires, but little else.  So I repaired properly what I could, and strung entire new wires where necessary, obviously including about 30 feet of generator starting cable, everything looser through that hole or bypassing it via a better route, and with the addition of protective tubing(s) around the looms through the hole, and tubing fitted around the circumference of the jagged hole.  Surprisingly, the only place Fleetwood had judiciously used that tubing around wire looms was in wheel wells;  I guess they thought that was the only place road debris could do any harm.  When I got home I took the rig to a Portland auto shop and had them do some more sophisticated repairs and electrical upgrades.  State Farm paid for about $1000 of the repairs, including some of the upgrades that should have been done by the factory - the adjustor felt that was just good sense protecting State Farm from future loss.  The Redding shop reimbursed me for some of their uninsured bill as well after I complained.

All in all, though I was out an awful lot of personal time, money, effort, and convenience, I think we were pretty lucky.  And like Ed, I earned a genuinely high regard for the current (amperage flow) and energy output that 12 volt batteries are capable of.  That lead battery post was hot as hades and essentially mush.  A few more fuses in the right places might have helped, but many were downstream of this short, and those that were upstream on a panel above the batteries did blow.  A master high-amp fuse right off the battery, especially for that heavy genset line, would have been a prudent Fleetwood addition.

Joel
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 11:25:07 PM by 77 »
Joel and Lee Rae Ashley
Clackamas, Oregon
36.9 ft. 2006 Monterey Ventura IV, aka"Monty Rae"
C9 400HP Cat

Jeremy Parrett

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Re: Xantrex Echo Charger Alternative
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2014, 02:50:58 PM »
Ed,
I read the Blue Seas unit should not be used with larger than Group 27 batteries as charging source. Am I correct?
    Jeremy

Edward Buker

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Re: Xantrex Echo Charger Alternative
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2014, 04:51:03 PM »
The SI series is good for 120Amp continuous and I mention putting a 100 amp fuse in series with it. In boat applications there is usually at least a pair of batteries in parallel being charged either from house to starting banks or visa versa. I have never heard of one of these systems failing nor have I ever replaced a fuse in one that I installed. Blue Seas make well engineered conservatively rated units for marine application.

In our case we are using the system in reverse so our issue is keeping starting batteries maintenance charged from the house side. For that case I have a hard time envisioning pulling in excess of 100 amps of current from the house to the chassis side. If the starting batteries were dead and the house side fully charged with the charger running then it could be possible to get a surge of current. I do not think this system would have any issues serving our needs but I would fuse it at 100 to 120 amps. If you keep the coach plugged in you will never see 120amps of current flow, it will see maintenance charge currents for the chassis set which is the job we need done.

Later Ed