BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Kevin Higgins on November 04, 2020, 07:40:46 PM
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With fully charged house batteries and everything turned off including the breaker panel my house batteries are completely dead after 6 to 8 hours.I have isolated the problem to two sources. When both inverters are in the off position breaker panel all breakers turned off all the lights in the coach water pump everything is turned off I still have a three amp draw.If I turn off the chassis batteries in the battery compartment the three amp draw goes away. According to the Aladdin system. When I turn the chassis batteries back on with the disconnect switch I still don’t have any amp draw.When I turn the key on and start the coach then turn it off the three amp draws comes back the only way to get rid of the three amp draw on the House batteries is to turn the chassis batteries off and then back on again. Second problem when everything is turned off in the couch including water pump all the lights I have a three amp draw but if I turn off the passenger side inverter the three amp draw goes away. I have no amp draw when the driver side inverter is on I’ve tried turning off all the breakers I still have a 3amp draw. This is a total of a six amp draw with both problems. Also I just installed brand new house batteries 6 V interstate last June
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Kevin,
Suggest you review "Batteries Not Charging" article in Common Problems. It sounds like the Big Boy solenoid is not opening when it should, either due to a malfunctioning BIRD system or failed Big Boy. Article explains proper operation.
Steve
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Plugged into shore power? No, yes-30 amp, or yes-50 amp?
Solar panels? No? Or Yes and RV is parked in the sun?
Which inverter charges the house/chassis batteries? This is the 1st time I am aware of two inverters in a Beaver.
Fridge is OFF? CO2, propane, and smoke detectors are OFF?
Aladdin and/or Silverleaf are OFF?
Auto leveling is OFF?
AguaHot is OFF?
TV receiver/s are OFF? Bose or other entertainment system is OFF?
Engine and/or Allison control modules are ON?
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When connected to 50 amp shore power I don’t have any issues the batteries charge up chassis and house. Yes I have solar panels and they work when parked in the sun and not hooked to shore power.Both inverters charge house and chassis batteries. The problem is only when I’m dry camping refrigerator will run for about 5 to 6 hours than the batteries are done inverter shuts off. I’ve had this rig for about 3 1/2 years and I have dry camped in the past and the refrigerator will run all night long into the morning. This problem has just started it’s possible I have two isolated situations. The big boy solenoid I took off last spring and completely cleaned it and it functions properly.
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Kevin,
Your reported symptoms indicate the Big Boy is not opening after a battery bank reaches 12.5v with ignition off.
Steve
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OK thanks Steve I just ordered one will have it next week I’ll let you know if that resolves the issues thanks kevin
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Kevin,
Hope you checked the BIRD (which controls the Big Boy) for proper operation as it may be the reason for the suspected Big Boy malfunction.
Steve
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Kevin,
Are you sure that your coach has two invertors? We have nearly the same coach with factory installed residential fridge and eight house batteries, we have one Magnum Invertor/charger. While there are four circuit breakers in the AC panel labeled invertor, two are output to the invertor/charger (from the transfer switch) and two are input from invertor/charger (to the AC panel).
The Aladdin system can be very useful for preliminary troubleshooting certain electrical issues, I wouldn’t rely on it to condemn any components.
You are always going to have draw on the house batteries, i.e., PCB board #5 in the front run box is always hot, regardless of the house battery disconnect and/or the ‘salesman switch’ position. PCB board #5 powers such things a radio memory, various 12-volt detectors and the like. Also, the Aladdin system itself will be drawing some power.
The difference that you are seeing when cycling the chassis battery disconnect maybe from the BCC/BIRD circuit board (#R6) in the rear run box, this PCB utilizes both chassis and house battery power. Starting the engine is probably triggering the isolator circuit that was killed when you used the battery disconnect(s).
Have you load tested your batteries? I would be suspicious that one of your ‘new’ batteries may have an issue. We had two of our eight batteries with bad a cell, they’d take a charge but wouldn’t hold with the inverter on and fridge running.
Are your chassis batteries also depleted in the morning?
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I did a load test on the house batteries all good. I took the big boy apart again it looked just like it did after I cleaned it in the spring. I do have two inverters one driver side one passenger side I think it’s my bird relay I took it out everything looks good clean no loose connections or burnt marks. I have 12.96 V on chassis side and house side of the big boy relay and the two Green wires Whether I’m plugged into shore power or unplugged from shore power. The only time it changes is when I turn the chassis or House batteries off. I did purchase a Big Boy Relay on eBay and installed it and nothing changed. I picked it up pretty cheap hundred bucks with delivery so I have an extra one. I ordered a bird relay from PDX Rv I’m not sure when it will get here ordered it last Monday haven’t heard from them. I also checked the salesman switch and it appears to be functioning properly also. And when I hit the switch for the power boost the big boy clicks but nothing changes there’s still 12.96 V on each side. I did read the article on house batteries not charging and the voltages did not match what they’re supposed to. I chassis batteries do not lose charge
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I’ve tried to add a couple pictures driver side inverter passenger side inverter but it says the file size is too large won’t let me do it. I tried to do them separately also still wouldn’t let me do it
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Kevin,
There is a photo reduction guide in the Forum Assistance board. If you have "Paint" on your PC, launch it an do a file open for the photo you want to load. Select "resize' and enter 50 (%). Do this 3 times and you will have no problem loading the photo. Don't worry about the size as viewers can expand it. One caution though, make a copy of the photo unless you don't care if it is permanently reduced in size.
Steve
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Thanks steve
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Kevin,
I stand corrected and apologize. I just read through my wiring diagrams and it does show that the all-electric coaches have two inverter/chargers with two house disconnect switches in the battery compartment(s).
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No problem Scott I appreciate you trying to help me out with this. Well I finally got the bird circuitboard and installed it the other day. Everything seems to be functioning properly on the big boy and the bird circuit other than on the eight pin connector the number five is supposed to have 4 V and it has 12v not sure what that’s all about I haven’t traced the wire to find out where it goes. So I unplugged the RV from shore power and flipped all the breakers on made sure everything was turned off in the coach and three or four hours later I went from approximately 12.8 V on the Aladdin system down to 12.1. I plugged it back in the shore power charged everything up. I disconnected the inverters on the positive post turned everything off again overnight. Next morning batteries were dead less than 5 V. A buddy of mine was thinking one of my inverters was bad but I think I ruled that out. My shop is really dark when all the lights are off and I walked all around looked in everything there’s nothing on or lit up and I can’t hear nothing where is all this power going? I have an appointment with a guy in a week and a half to check the amperage or current draw from the batteries. I know there’s a current draw because you pull off the positive post there’s a big spark I’m not sure what that’s gonna do it’s just gonna tell me how many amps are drawn
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Kevin, You will always have a big spark when connecting/disconnecting (+) or (-) battery cables to your inverter, as the inverter has some big capacitors and they pull current for a split second when you connect or disconnect the cables. Watch out. Below is a nice DC clamp on ammeter that will help you chase those milliamps.
https://www.amazon.com/UNI-T-Digital-Handheld-Resistance-Capacitance/dp/B0188WD1NE/ref=asc_df_B0188WD1NE/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=385641687827&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=310824320346769893&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032602&hvtargid=pla-825340133445&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=76926660445&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=385641687827&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=310824320346769893&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032602&hvtargid=pla-825340133445
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Kevin,
Regarding your ‘bird circuit board’ eight-pin connector.
Pin #4, orange wire, goes to the battery boost switch on the dash.
Pin #5, purple wire, goes to the battery disconnect switch on the dash (‘salesman switch’).
Both dash switches are normally hot and complete their respective circuits using the switch backlighting ground.
I took readings at the eight-pin connector on our coach.
Big Boy de-energized;
Pin #4: domestic battery voltage
Pin #5: ~11.5-volts
Big Boy energized;
Pin #4: ~4.8-volts
Pin #5: ~11.5-volts
I wouldn’t think that your BIRD/Big Boy is contributing to your issue. If the Big Boy was remaining closed after disconnecting from shore power your chassis batteries would also be depleted. The BIRD/Big Boy would not affect the house battery charging from the inverter/charger.
I agree that by disconnecting the inverter/chargers at the positive post on the invertor you have essentially eliminated them as the draw down on your domestic (house) batteries.
Both the Front and Rear Run Boxes feed various circuits from the domestic batteries. All high amperage circuits enter the rear run box via the large terminals along the bottom of the box and then feed through high amperage circuit breakers to their destination.
The Front Run Box is fed from the Rear Run Box by two separate circuits, one is constant hot (not affected by the domestic battery disconnect switch), and one is switched (domestic disconnect switch). These feeds are exposed in the front run box so you could use your clamp-on meter two measure amp draw on each feed. You could also totally eliminate the front run box from the equation by disconnecting the two large terminals at the front wall of the Front Run Box.
2008-2009 Indexed Beaver and Patriot Wiring Diagrams in the Coach Assist section.
Drawing # 38070173 on page 155 shows the feeds to the Front Run Box.
Eliminating the Rear Run Box from the equation would be tough. Many of the components in the rear run box are buss-mounted which makes reading amp draw difficult, however most of the high draw circuits do utilize cabling that would allow you to use your clamp-on meter.
Drawing # 38080547 on page 175 of the same diagram set shows the various Rear Run Box components labeled by source (Domestic v Chassis).
Be aware and use caution as some circuits in both the Front and Rear Run Boxes are still hot with high-amp 12-volt power even with the battery disconnect switches off.
A couple of other diagrams that might be of interest:
DC diagram for the dual invertor
Page 22
Drawing #: 38010651
AC diagram for the dual invertor
Page 32
Drawing #: 38030071
All of the diagrams that I listed are in my 2006 Patriot hard copy wiring diagram and are effectively the same as the 2008-2009 diagrams, some of the 2008-2009 diagrams are ‘colorized’ and a little easier to read.
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Kevin,
Another thing that works great with a draw that big is a infrared camera. anything that takes that much current is going to get hot.
Regards,
Al Anderson
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Well I took the RV to a mechanic which I’ve known for a lot of years after 30 to 45 minutes explaining the situation to him he was pretty determined that my batteries were bad he told me to charge them up disconnect them from the couch and let them sit for 4 to 5 days. I did that the batteries never lost hardly any voltage. i’ve narrowed it down to two problems first I did like you said I hooked my multimeter up to the batteries and then I started disconnecting the feeds in the front run box before I started I was having a 4 amp draw coming from the batteries this is with both inverter disconnected and the battery switches in the on position. One by one I disconnected the feeds from to the front run box and one of them when disconnected the amp draw went to zero I hooked the other three back up left that one unhooked. The Aladdin system Seems to be the only thing affected by that feed. I haven’t tested everything but most things seem to work. The second problem is with the driver side inverter with all the breakers in the off position and Inverter in the off position I have a .3 amp draw. This is normal according to Magnum technical support and that is what the other inverter is drawing also. As soon as I turn on the inverter on the amp draw goes up to 3 to 4 A. With all the breakers in the off position and disconnected from shore power. I have three projects going on with the RV right now and this being the most challenging. Thanks for everybody’s help
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Kevin,
I admire your tenacity and certainly your frustration when trying to figure out this issue. Electrical issues can be mysterious but not insurmountable. The hardest thing is "how do I divide and conquer" what my problem is. I think you have zeroed in on your issue. The 4 amp draw is not normal. Inverter's when "on" and idling will draw what you stated. Off and connected will also draw what you stated. You said the Aladdin system is the 4 amp draw. We need to narrow that down, and only look at this one thing. I am not sure if there is another fuse down stream of what you are disconnecting to eliminate the 4 amp draw. You may try un-plugging each of the Aladdin modules located in the compartments that monitor information. Another thing you may try to isolate the problem, is to unplug the monitors associated with the Aladdin. You can call me at 520-309-1260 for further discussion. Hope this helps, Fred
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You might want to check to see if your over-the-air TV antenna amplifier is connected to that Aladdin circuit. That's one load that is easy to miss.
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Kevin,
The Aladdin wiring is shown on page 10 of the 2004 Patriot Wiring Diagams in Coach Assist. Should be identical (or very close) to your coach.
Steve
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The power antenna is in the off position.I’ve located some of the Aladdin modules in Driver side ceiling front bay. I still haven’t located all of them still looking. Fred I will call you soon as I find all the modules .
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LP tank shutoff solenoid? Its always 'on', unless you turn it off.
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Well I thought I do a write up on my conclusion to this problem bottom line batteries were bad. But I’ve learned a lot about the electrical system on my couch. I’ve upgraded the remotes to ME -ARC and installed a BMK. I also had to upgrade my AGS. In the process I found that one of my temperature sensors was broken and non-functional but it wasn’t a big deal because I had to run a new network cable from the BMK to the inverter anyway. I’m still drawing about 14 Amps with basically nothing else on but the refrigerator. Not a big deal I have 640 amp hours. It sat in front of my house for three days not plugged in and I still had 40% battery capacity. I do have solar panels so during the day it’s not drawing hardly any amps. Thanks again for everyone’s help