BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Edward Buker on June 24, 2011, 03:11:54 PM
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We have been traveling through a lot of states from Alabama on our way to Washington State and found ourselves having to pick up some fuel at a Pilot Station in Oregon yesterday. I saw a sticker on the pump that said the fuel could be B2 to B20. We picked up about an equal amount to what was already in the tank and I chose not to fill up not having any biodiesel experience. This is the first time (knowingly) that we have met up with Biodiesel. I had them check the bill of laden for the fuel and it was actually B10 that was added to the tank. With the fuel that was already in my tank I now running about B5 or 5% biodiesel.
The question for the forum is what has the experience been with biodiesel? Have others out here used B5 to B10 and has it caused any issues? Is the generator and Aqua Hot burner also fine with biodiesel? Our next states are Washington, Oregon, and California and it would seem like it may be hard to avoid Biodiesel all the time....
Thanks Ed
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Ed,
There are four states that mandate a biodiesel blend of from 2% to 20% in all highway diesel fuel. The percentage of biodiesel in the blend will vary with the time of year (higher in the summer), and the amount of biodiesel that can be produced in the state or multistate region.
The states that require a biodiesel blend are Minnesota, Washington, Pennsylvania, and Oregon with the Portland area having a higher requirement than the rest of the state. So you can see that if you travel extensively in the US, you can not avoid biodiesel.
I have used biodiesel with a blend of as high as 30%, and I could not tell any difference in coach or generator performance. I can not tell about Aqua Hot performance, since I do not have one and I do not run my Hurricane in the summer (with rare exception) when I was using the higher percentage blend. The only concerns that I have with biodiesel is that the higher percentages do not lubricate the fuel system as well as # 2 diesel does. However since I only use one or two tanks a year of biodiesel, I am not overly concerned.
It seems to me that we are going to be forced to burn food stocks as fuel (ethanol from corn or biodiesel from vegetable oil) until the politicians see the need for more offshore oil production and the usage of the huge natural gas reserves that we have as motor fuel. However that is a Texan's viewpoint on the situation that as I know, is not universally accepted.
Gerald
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Thanks Gerald.
Seems that you have led the way here using up to B30 and if you have not seen a problem then I will assume that I will not either, especially in the B5 range. I did check the visible screen filter and it is clean after running 80 miles with this blend.
This is one of those things in life that I will try and avoid when I can and use the blended fuel if I have to.
I also think that the U.S. should produce all the oil that it can from drilling rather than import more. I was never a fan of Ethanol and its use has affected food prices and feed stock prices. Ethanol does not have the energy that the base gas stock does. I have a marine test report where the 10% ethanol blend and non ethanol blend was used in the same craft, at the same RPM, over the same course, under the same conditions, with precise measuring instruments. After repeated runs the results were a 10% drop in mileage with the Ethanol blend which is about what I have observed in my car. The wide open throttle test was also revealing in that they lost 300 to 400 RPM of performance. Adding 10% ethanol and then getting a 10% drop in mileage is a rediculous waste of our resources. Just does not make sense....
Don't get me started on allowing Wall St. into the fuel speculation game either....
Later Ed
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Right on Ed, it is really a stupid idea!
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I'm not nearly as concerned about a possible loss of power as much as I am about clogging filters or ruining seal. So far, I have had to rebuilt the carbs on two of my Honda 4 stroke outboards because of the damage done by ethanol blended fuel. My neioghbor has had to rebuild his carbs twice and his gas tank is degrading from the ethanol. My of my friends have had serious fuel filter problems on their inboard boats caused by "Biodiesel" dissolving built up in their tanks. I now have converted one of my portable 110 gallon tanks from deisel to gas to keep non-ethanol gas available for our boats and other gasoline powered small engines. I will aviod biodiesel as much as possible.
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Robert, thanks for the info. I know the marine industry issue with ethanol. Many of the fuel tanks that were glassed had ethanol slowly dissolve some of the resins. Material incompatibility....metal tanks made out better. Some carbs have had problems with the blend as you have seen also.
I will avoid biodiesel when I can. Better to go with what the engine was designed to use whenever possible. I was so focused on the fuel stop, driving the route, and getting through a long day on the road that I did not notice the bioblend little 2 inch by 2 inch sign placed low on the pump until after 60 gallons had been pumped. They certainly were not advertising bioblend very well...
Later Ed
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Does anyone know what CAT's position is with use of biodiesel?
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Leah, Richard Ames referred us to their position on biodiesel in a previous thread:
http://catrvclub.org/new_fuel_recommendations[1].pdf This is the CAT side of the question.
Basically, CAT is neither pro nor con on the subject. But they do proffer cautions and commentary on the characteristics of biodiesel. The use of various fuel types they say does not affect the warranty, unless an engine failure is attributable to the fuel :-/, which I take to mean the use of a fuel that doesn't meet technical guidelines. You'll find most blended fuels do meet regulated and prescribed guidelines. If CAT denied a warranty claim on the basis of an unprescribed fuel, then I would assume one would have a basis to sue the fuel supplier for costs, assuming the supplier was legally required to meet such guidelines.
CAT mentions also that blends with biodiesel content over 5% get into the realm of being problematic, from CAT's point of view. So far, Oregon is at 5%, and I don't know which others are also at 5% or higher (refer to Gerald's post above). CAT's cautions revolve around biodiesel's 5-7% worse mileage than diesel, due to less energy content, and its higher attractiveness for water and greater tendency to gel. My take on that is that as long as standard additives are used, either by the supplier or the owner, algae and gelling shouldn't be any more of a problem with 5% blend than pure diesel. The mileage loss is also relatively insignificant when you factor in the 5-7% loss mitigated by the fact that only 2-5% of your fuel is affected; ie, out of a 100 gallon tank full, no more than 5 gallons of it could suffer from the small energy deficit. That's a mileage loss of about 0.25%, an unnoticeable drop from, say, 7mpg to 6.98mpg. But factor in blends of 10-30% as others mention running into in prior posts, the mileage affect could be noticed; one then has to wonder just where the "green" aspect of biodiesel is for our country if we have to buy more fuel more often.
Some car dealers have complained of additional smoking and noticeable mileage loss on their vehicles, such as Ford diesel trucks, etc. Generally, I think the jury is still out overall on biodiesel. But if very many more states mandate blends higher than 5%, I think there will be quite a stink (pun intended ::)).
-Joel
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The last report that I read on biodiesel from Cat stated that up to B30 was acceptable on engines built in 2006 and earlier for RVs and up to B20 for engines built in 2007 and latter would likely be recommended after more testing.
This report was dated February 2008.
http://www.biodieselconference.org/2008/post/secure/_xlI10oO/29_User%20Abi-Akar.pdf
Gerald
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Gerald,
Thanks for making that report available....I could not redily find a Cat position link on Biodiesel. Looks like Cat has done adequate testing to verify most available blends that we would run into. My net is I will try and avoid biodiesel and use it if I have to....at least for now.
Thanks Ed
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Joel and Gerald
Thank you for your information---you guys are such a wealth of information, am glad to hear that fuel (bio-D) in Oregon is only at 5% as it makes it less of a concern when traveling to Bend to visit BCS!
Thanks again guys!
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Leah,
In Oregon the exception is the Portland area (Oregon's liberal heartland) where it is mandated that diesel for highway use has be at least a 10% (B10) blend of biodiesel.
Here is an article from the American Trucking Association that list the biodiesel mandates around the country as of now.
http://www.truckline.com/AdvIs.....20January%202010.pdf
However keep in mind that these mandates are minimal biodiesel percentages, and that some retailers may be carrying a higher percentage than the minimal as I have encountered before.
Also remember that 100% biodiesel has about 5% to 7% less heat value than diesel with the lubrication and filter clogging problems not withstanding, and therefore your fuel mileage and power will drop accordingly. A B10 blend will drop your fuel mileage and power about .5% to .7% which is not much, but every little bit counts.
Gerald
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Leah,
I purchased B10 at a Pilot in Ontario Oregon. What concerned me the most (besides not having any biodiesel experience) is that the pump had a little sticker on it that said fuel may be B2 through B20. The individual pumping the fuel had no idea what level of biodiesel blend that he was pumping. I went inside and had them look up the bill of lading and found that it was currently B10. The manager indicated that blend was not a constant and it depends on what was being trucked in from the supplier at the time.
I would not assume that you are buying B5 in Oregon. My guess is that B10 is more common given they have to blend that mix for Portland anyway. It would appear that B10 should not be an issue for us but it is good to know what you are fueling up with just in case there is an issue.
Later Ed
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my only concern about biodiesel would be how long has the fuel been in the ground.
I would make sure i bought it at a high volume fuel location to make sure there is little chance of algae growth in the undeground tanks. I would also make sure i had spare filters just in case or contaminated fuel.
Otherwise drive on french fries!
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When you get down to it, what we get from the ground is really biodiesel. It just has been aged like fine whisky and wine. Maybe we are trying to "drink" the new stuff before it's time....
Later Ed
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The following is an exerpt from Oregon's Measurement Standards Division's summary of current biodiesel standards. Concerns that you have about labeling and dispensing at any one facility should be directed to them. Some of the labeling and standards seem to leave, to my mind, much to be desired. Gerald is correct about Portland, and keep in mind that the mandate dictates that highway diesel in Oregon be at least 5% biodiesel; so any one pump could be more than 5%. The exception would be so-called "blending dispensers" where the fuel is blended at the point of sale - they cannot blend to more than 20%. It's a hassle to have to "shop" blends as well as prices now; you may not know when you drive in exactly what blend a station has until you get to the pump and scan for the little label. That needs to change.
-Joel
Further info. can also be found here: http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/MSD/renewable_fuel_standard.shtml
Biodiesel fuel specifications
Biodiesel (B100), biodiesel intended for blending (B99), biodiesel blends, and petroleum diesel must meet the following ASTM International specifications:
1. Petroleum diesel must meet the requirements of ASTM D 975, Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils.
2. The biodiesel blend stock (B100 or B99) mus
a. Meet the requirements of ASTM D 6751, Standard Specification for Biodiesel Fuel (B100) Blend Stock for Distillate Fuels.
b. Have a Certificate of Analysis for each batch or production lot produced in or after importation into Oregon prior to blending, sale, or offer for sale. The Certificate of Analysis is required to document that, at a minimum, the biodiesel was tested and complied with all of the following specifications:
i. Flash point (ASTM D 93)
ii. Acid number (ASTM D 664)
iii. Cloud point (ASTM D 2500)
iv. Water and sediment (ASTM D 2709)
v. Visual appearance (ASTM D 4176)
vi. Free glycerin (ASTM D 6584)
vii. Total glycerin (ASTM D 6584)
viii. Oxidation stability (EN 14112 as per ASTM D 6751)
ix. Sulfur (ASTM D 5453 or ASTM D 7039).
c. Have a Certification of Feedstock origination describing the percent of the biodiesel’s feedstock grown or produced within the states of Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and Montana and that produced outside of the states of Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and Montana.
3. Biodiesel may be blended with diesel fuel whose sulfur, lubricity, or aromatic levels are outside specification ASTM D 975, Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils, grades 1-D S15, 1-D S500, 2-D S15, or 2-D S5000, provided the finished product mixture meets pertinent national and local specifications and requirements for these properties.
Biodiesel fuel dispensers ("pumps")
The dispenser or “pump” used to deliver biodiesel and its blends is required to be
a legal-for-trade, National Type Evaluation Program (NTEP) approved (verified with a Certificate of Conformance) dispenser designed for petroleum No. 2 diesel fuel,
correctly calibrated with the actual blend of biodiesel being dispensed, and
licensed through the Oregon Department of Agriculture (ODA), Measurement Standards Division (MSD).
Unless clearly indicated otherwise on the NTEP CC, an NTEP approved diesel dispenser is only approved to a maximum 20% biodiesel blend (B20 Biodiesel Blend).
IMPORTANT INFORMATION THAT YOU NEED TO KNOW: “Blending” dispensers are dispensers that take two different grades of motor fuel and are capable of forming a third intermediate grade inside of the dispenser at the time of sale.
A blending dispenser used for the blending of biodiesel must be NTEP approved as a blending dispenser for that particular product, and the product’s blend percentage must not exceed that allowed by the NTEP CC. As with any commercial measuring device, check with the device manufacturer if you have any questions regarding the proper usage of the device.
Identification of biodiesel
Biodiesel and biodiesel blends must be identified by the capital letter “B” followed by the numerical value representing the volume percentage of biodiesel in the blend. For example, “B10”, “B20”, “B99”, “B100”.
Biodiesel fuel delivery documentation
An invoice, bill of lading, shipping paper, or other documentation, must accompany each delivery of fuel other than a sale by a retail or nonretail dealer (e.g. cardlock) to a consumer.
The delivery documentation is required to state the actual volume percent biodiesel in the fuel. For example, “B2 Biodiesel Blend”, “B5 Biodiesel Blend”, "B20 Biodiesel Blend”, etc., for the specific volume percent of biodiesel in that particular delivery of fuel.
For biodiesel blends up to and including 5 volume percent, the delivery documentation must state the amount of biodiesel in the blend to the nearest 1.0 volume percent.
For biodiesel blends greater than 5 volume percent up to and including 20 volume percent, the delivery documentation must state the amount of biodiesel in the blend to the nearest 2.0 volume percent.
Labeling of biodiesel dispensers
The required labeling of biodiesel dispensers depends upon the volume percent of biodiesel in the fuel. If labeling is required, it must be located on the upper half of the dispenser’s front panels in a position that is clear and conspicuous from the driver’s position and in type that is at least 1/2 inch in height and 1/16 inch in stroke (width of type). The requirements are as follows:
Biodiesel blends of 5% or less. No additional biodiesel labeling is required. However, if a dispenser is labeled with any reference to biodiesel and the fuel contains 5% or less biodiesel, then it must be labeled, “5% Or Less Biodiesel Blend”.
Biodiesel blends of more than 5% but not more than 20%. The dispensers must be labeled in one of three ways:
1. The capital letter “B” followed by the numerical value representing the volume percentage of biodiesel fuel and ending with the phrase, “Biodiesel Blend”. For example, “B10 Biodiesel Blend”, “B20 Biodisel Blend”, etc.; or
2. The phrase, “Biodiesel Blend Between 5% and 20%” or similar words; or
3. With the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) approved label [Reference 16 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 306.12 and Appendix A]. The FTC label has a header statement in the top and a text statement in the lower portion. These labels are a specific size and have a blue (PMS 277 or equivalent) background. All type and borders are process black and all colors must be non-fade. These labels are somewhat similar in appearance to a typical octane sticker on a gasoline pump.
These labels are available in two versions.
1. One with the header that states the specific volume percent of biodiesel in the blend. For example, “B20 Biodiesel Blend”. With this label, the fuel must contain the actual amount of biodiesel stated.
2. The other with the header that states simply, “Biodiesel Blend”. With this label, the fuel may contain between 5% through 20% biodiesel in the blend.
The text statement in the lower portion of both versions is the same and reads as follows; “contains biomass-based diesel or biodiesel in quantities between 5 percent and 20 percent”.
Biodiesel blends more than 20%. The dispensers must be labeled with the volume percent of biodiesel in the blend. The label must display the capital letter “B” followed by the numerical value of representing the volume percent of biodiesel in the blend and ending with the phrase, “Biodiesel Blend” or “Biodiesel”, whichever is appropriate. For example, “B30 Biodiesel Blend”, “B60 Biodiesel Blend”, “B99.9 Biodiesel Blend”, “B100 Biodiesel”, etc.
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I for one will stick to aged scotch and for the Beaver with the fresh diesel should we use an additive?
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After rereading and posting my last rather extensive note, the only additive on my mind at the time, Richard, was 7 year old Evan Williams Bourbon.
-Joel
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For additional information that might assist BAC members whenever it comes time to refuel, I sent an inquiry to my preferred diesel supplier, Pioneer Fuel. For those that haven't yet done so, enrolling with Pioneer Fuel may offer advantages that should be considered, including knowing ahead of time what locations offer what percentages of biodiesel.
-Joel
The following is the response I got to my inquiry:
All Pacific Pride fueling outlets are required at minimum to meet all local governmental jurisdictiction requirements for biodiesels wheter it be B-2, B-5 or B-20. Many states don't yet have any biofuel mandates or requirements. If any Pacific Pride operator has additional tankage after comlying with minimum requirements then they can offer aditional products including more than one blend of biodiesel. For example our Corvallis, OR Pacific Pride offers B-5, B-20 and B-99.
One suggestion that might be of help is to look up through our www.pacificpride.us webpage what fuels are offered at each site before going there to fuel. Click on the "locations" tab then click on "Criteria Search" located bottom right of USA map. Choose location and fuel type. With a little pre-trip planning a traveler could decide ahead of time where they wanted to fuel based upon a Pacific Pride outlet's product offerings.
Thanks for the inquiry.
Happy motoring
Larry Wall
Pioneer Fuel/Pacific Pride
General Manager