BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Jeff Watt on July 30, 2011, 04:27:27 PM
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I'll start by saying that I recently purchased a 2005 Patriot Thunder (Yorktown) with about 34,000 miles, from the original owner. Consequently, a lot of the systems on this unit are new to me. Everything was working well, however, I have had a couple of fairly minor problems - all electrical - since, and although I can't prove it, they seem to have started after I had a brake controller installed.
When I brought it home, I noticed the rear passenger side to be down vs. the other side, and that the whole back end to be down a bit (granted I have had it so short a time I am not sure what normal is). So I measured the bags and the front are at 10" and the left rear are at 10", right rear at 9". So, I thought I may need to get it/them adjusted.
I thought I would do/check a couple of things. First to activate the air leveling as if I were parking for the night. No response. Next I tried the dump function - no response. Nothing on the touch panel is active. Called Monaco customer service, and was told to check plug-in connector on back of touch panel as they occasionally come loose - it is attached. Next I downloaded the service/repair manual for the 2000 system from HWH. While I am NOT going to do anything too technical, I thought I'd read it. One thing was to see if the lights on the control box are lit when ignition is on - they are. Secondly it mentioned there is a light on the backside of the touch panel - if there is one present it isn't lit.
I am going to check to see if there is any power coming to the panel as I think there isn't. The problem is any fuse to replace is buried deep in the control box(es).
Any thoughts as to why this might have happened? I am hesitant about taking it back to the RV shop where I had the brake controller installed, as I have had to many coincidences of electrical problems since being there.
Thanks.
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Forgot to mention that the dash warning light is not on and neither is the HWH reset light in the electrical bay.
Oddly, the dash warning light does not come on when turning on the ignition. Not sure if it is supposed to as an initial system check.
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I seem to have developed a lot of the same problems. When I pulled in to our spot to park for the next few days I hit the level button and nothing happened. Check the dump button and the raise button and they both work. Nothing dealing with leveling will respond. I do have a small red light that is lit on the back of the panel, other than that my symptoms appear very similar. I guess my best solution is to go by Moscow on Wed and let HWH deal with it since it is on my planned route. I have sent them an email and will try calling tomorrow although they admit their response time on phone is slow. I was just to a CAT rally in Amana, IA and they had a HWH session and that is what they said.
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At least you have a light....
In the repair manual I downloaded, sec 2a. states if the System Active Light does not come then:
"Make sure there is power and ground to the control box in the 12 pin gray connector CN11. There is a link light on the back of the touch panel. This light should be flashing whenever the ignition is on. If the link light is not blinking, replace the control box. If the link light is blinking, replace the touch panel."
I don't feel comfortable checking for power at the control box and as I don't have a light flashing or constant I suspect it is something more. I emailed HWH on Friday afternoon so I wasn't expecting any response until this week. I am going to call in the morning and hopefully figure out what to do next. The unit is sitting down some on the back as the passenger side rear bags are at 8" and drivers side rear are at 9".
Hopefully they will suggest some easy fix, but I doubt it. If not simple, then I hope I can still drive it for repairs.
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Jefery,
If you have the second control panel in the rear of the coach you can unplug it from the control box and plug in the control panel in the coach just to be cure it is not a bad plug. Mine acted just like yours and the plug was completely of the panel when i removed it.
Hope this helps
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There were no appointments available on Wed to fit into my drive plans but have scheduled for 12:30 on Thursday. Can go in on Wed and plug in there in one of their spaces. Will let you know what the problem is when I find out. Our call from this morning wasn't returned but after we did call it was a very short time I received an email from HWH and got everything setup. Glad I've got internet.
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Called HWH, and they took my name and message. I also emailed them again, and will try calling again tomorrow. I realize they are busy, however, I'm in a bit of a predicament and here in S. Manitoba, I don't have a lot of options for repairs. Although, and I haven't check with them yet, I live 10 miles from the TRIPLE E headquarters and plant. I know they install HWH in their units, as I had a 2000 with an HWH hydraulic leveler and slide system. So, I hope, if they can install the HWH units, then they should be able to help diagnose the problem. With things a little slow, the Triple E service department is working on other manufacturer units, as I saw an Alegro and a Monaco sitting at the service area a couple of weeks ago.
I am pretty sure there is no power at the touch panel, and there is only one touch panel in my unit. I checked voltage, and there is maybe 0.02 on one line - that can be just poor connections or static or ?
Also, there are LEDs lit up inside the control box when ignition is on.
I guess we'll wait to see what tomorrow brings. Fortunately, I am at home and I am not planning on going anywhere for at least a month.
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I had a similar problem on my 98 Marquis. Leveling switches were not active except sporadically. Most obvious symptom was no lights and no response from the control panel. Finally kicked in on a badly sloped campsite and cracked the windshield.
Did the usual checks and was sure of power of power in. Checked also using the rear control box, no joy there either. After calling the HWH help desk, I unscrewed the box cover and disconnected the board that combined inputs from front and rear panels; trying first the front, then the rear. No joy. Called back and after some additional conversation I ordered a new control panel. Installed it without connection to the rear panel. Finally JOY, I can level the coach again.
The rear panel is a Beaver add-on. It was exposed to the engine bay and covered in dirt and soot; read useless. The jumper board was a hack to allow both panel to control the system. They said it was subject to early failure. The true culprit? vibration and age. The panel was an easy swap and access to the control box was almost painless.
Mike Way
'98 Marquis
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My leveling is fixed. Had an appointment for Thursday and was planning on spending the night today. Pulled in about 12:30 and was told to pull it into Bay 4 and they would check it out. The technician immediately started checking it out. It was found in a short time that the control panel was bad, the button you push to level had given up the ghost. I also had the problem that the right front would dump air at different times and then half an hour later the pump (after sitting a few days) would start up to level again. This would happen a number of times in a 24 hour period. This has been going on for at least a year. They pulled out the control in the electrical bay. There were a couple of springs they replaced with ones that are 3 times stronger, replaced a couple of cards and upgraded the program in it. It seems to be repaired as it has not done that since we arrived. The cost for parts and programming was 0. I was charged two hours of labor at $85 per hour and was on the road again to our destination a hour away at 3:45. I consider myself very lucky that I was near Moscow, IA when this problem developed. HWH strives to make a person very happy. Under promise and over deliver. I wish there were more companies that did that.
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There are a few, Don. Like Fantastic Vent, who notified me today they are supplying me at no cost with all the instructions, parts, and material needed to repair a stripped lift mechanism on one of my 5 year old fans, plus the instructions to prevent it from happening again, or to my other unit. If I'd been at a Rally, they'd have done all the work for free too, as they have for others over the years.
-Joel
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I like to hear about good service. Thanks for the follow up. Just one question though, is HWH in Moscow Iowa or Moscow Idaho? I'm not so good on the abbreviations for states and thought I had heard earlier that it was Idaho.
Ken
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I haven't progressed anywhere yet with my problem.
I have called HWH twice and emailed 3 times but no response as of yet. I do have an appointment at Triple E on Monday so hopefully they can help diagnose and/or repair the problem.
I am going to call HWH again this afternoon and hope they offer some help. One problem is the system won't lift (put air into bags) when starting the unit and over time it has been settling at the rear especially the passenger side.
So best hope is it is a fuse or something simple like that which can be repaired quickly. If I need a new touch panel or control box then likely I am looking at a week for delivery (even with courier) and then who knows for the install. As I said, fortunately I am at home so not needing the unit, but it is troubling if it happened on the road and no response from HWH.
Monaco Tech Support, while cooperative, couldn't/wouldn't give me any answers.
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Jeffrey,
Maybe if you called and asked for Fred Gunder. He is the gentleman that put on the HWH seminar at the CAT rally in Amana a week ago. He had mentioned that the return call was slow. That is the only fault I could possible find with their service.
Joel,
You're right about Fantastic Vent. Back 6+ years ago when I owned a fifth wheel I had a fan go out. Was at a rally and they couldn't get it fixed but put me in a fan and then sent me one in the mail that was the same as I had with all the automatic stuff. They are good too.
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Thanks guys. I emailed Beaver Coach Sales and they said to check a couple of fuses in the control box with the caveat to be very careful. So I think I will leave it for a tech.
I had thought about disconnecting all batteries and letting the system discharge for 10-15 minutes but with the solar panel running, I would either have to disconnect its fuse or cover the panel - neither I really wanted to do since I am not sure that disconnecting anything will cure the problem, especially after the advice from BCS.
Will muddle along and I was away all day so I didn't get to call HWH - another weekend is upon us. Hope everyone else has fun.
Jeff
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Any thoughts regarding moving the unit about 10 miles over pretty smooth roads with minimal turns. The bags are all unveven and the system isn't working to pump them up.
For reference:
the front left 11" probably because the rest are down.
Front right 9.5"
Left rear main 9.5"
left tag 9.5"
Right rear main 8"
Right tag 7.5-8"
Thanks,
Jeff
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Jeff,
I would not be overly concerned if adequate caution is taken.
Gerald
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Jeff,
The drive shaft angle is certainly no concern. The wheel well clearance is the issue that could cause some damage to the coach. If at the present ride height the front wheel clearance is adequate then as Gerald notes, proceed with caution. A couple of measurements of tire clearance at the present ride height and a check along the way to see if you are holding adequate clearences may be wise.
Later Ed
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Thanks for the advice. I think there is clearance at the front wheel wells, certainly on the left and probably on the right. The right rear is sitting down but not touching anything that I can see.
I guess I'll proceed with caution.
Need to get it repaired so we can use the thing - bought and I think I have driven it 30 miles since purchase.
This forum is a very useful tool for a newbie.
Jeff
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Jeff,
It is while turning, that you may have tires contact the wheel wells, if the coach is low. The reference measurements can be taken with the wheels straight from the top of the tire to the top of the wheel well to see if anything is changing while you are traveling the short distance you plan on. Before you start out, you might have someone turn the wheel slowly and cautiously while you check, and be sure that you have wheel well clearance lock to lock, with the current ride height. If not, you still may be able to travel cautiously knowing the limitations you need to take into account. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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You may also find after driving a few blocks, the ride height returns to closer to the correct height.
Larry
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I have to agree with the Guys, Jeff, and bolster their input. Your clearances are probably adequate if you proceed slowly over any significant bumps and take entrance curbs, etc., at an angle. I've traveled with dumped air before, but only slowly in a straight line on level asphalt for 50 ft. to clear some limbs; you couldn't have paid me enough to turn the wheel and take out a fender.
My first thoughts were that in your situation I'd have someone turn the steering wheel while I checked my front tire clearance to the fender skirts, as Ed mentioned. That's where you are at a fair amount of risk - esp. going over a bump or curb rise while turning. The standard travel mode airbag bracket distance for my Monterey is 10" all around. Your coach is a whole different animal, Jeff, but I wouldn't think your worst case 8" rear to be a bad number, as long as you proceed with the caution you intend, and esp. on turns. But 9.5" up front right would be absolutely no problem for me, and probably not your rig either. In fact, the right rear seems to be the real culprit, causing the prying up of the left front; the other bags are very likely near normal parameters.
The driveline angle is an issue only if the coach was too high, and Monaco probably put restrictive straps in to prevent that anyway.
-Joel
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Drove to the service center today - no problems. Just took it slow. Now I just wait to find out what the problem is going to be.
Coincidentally about 1/2 hour after I dropped it off, I received an email from a person at HWH. I provided it info from Beaver Coach Sales to the Service Manager.
Thanks for the advice and I'll post what the outcome turns out to be.
Jeff
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So the diagnosis is I need a new control box. Good times :(
Anyhow, in this age of lightning fast information, the word is it may take 2 weeks to come from Moscow, Iowa to Manitoba; you'd think it could be here from Moscow, Russia in two weeks. I think there are people out there that could drive it between the two locations in a matter of a couple of days. SO I asked if they can courier it or whatever to get it here in maybe a week or less....... Of course for a fee. But the unit can't go anywhere the way it is so I'll wait.
Really makes me think that somehow a surge or some such event went through the unit. I have a "Surge Guard Plus" on my unit so I would hope that should have caught any blast - maybe not. Does anyone use a supplemental surge protector system, say one that is used (plugged-in) prior to the units power?
Jeff
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Jeff,
I believe that system runs only on the 12V side of things. The very safest connection, from a surge point of view, is a direct isolated wire to the batteries with its own fuse. Lead acid batteries have a very low impedance and can absorb about any spike without affecting the 12V output.
I doubt that a surge, as we think of it, in the 120v side of things was involved, certainly no AC surge reaches that system. My guess is that it was a defective component within the unit itself that failed. The folks at the factory in Iowa should be able to shed some light, if there are any precautions you should take that could affect the reliability, and if that model has been problematic. That would probably be your best source for this type of info.
Later Ed
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Ed,
Thanks for your insight(s) as I am still trying to learn about these things - steep curve.
I guess I chalk it up to just one of those things. My father-in-law once said things don't break down sitting in the shed. While not entirely (strictly) correct, the point is if something is used, then it may/can break down.
Jeff
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Jeff,
All of our coaches are complex beasts. There are a lot of components and systems in them, and then we put them through some abuse going down some pretty bad highways. It is a wonder that they do as well as they do.
I'm pretty sure that with a new control box, you will be back in business. You can take some comfort in that your coach is wired in a similar fashion as many others, and the problem that you have had is not one that has a history of being problematic. Seems unlikely, given the good component history, that you will have this problem again. Lets hope the diagnostics were good and you are back in business soon.
Later Ed
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Good to see they figured it out Jeff. I think Ed is correct, this is not a common problem, and it should be good, now that it is fixed, for a long time.
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Part arrived today and to be installed tomorrow - I guess they used a faster means of transportation. This should correct everything - well the air suspension anyway :)
I just read on the Norcold site about the latest recall and I guess that will be the next issue to be addressed....it and the faulty keypad for the keyless entry. A new keypad is being ordered as the outer two touch pads don't work. Its at times like this when maybe simpler is better :-/
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Everything seems to be working on the HWH - nothing that $2000 can't fix! Apparently the control board was fried.
Going with the thoughts posted here that this seems to be an isolated case, HWH had to make a board for me as they didn't have one in stock. I take that as (1) they don't fail very often and (2) they manufacture that part on a "just in time" basis for installations.
Somethings do work out, I called regarding the Norcold and apparently the previous owner (I bought this unit in May) had the recall work performed already.
The new keypad is on order and hopefully it will arrive before the weekend as I am planning on leaving Sept 6 for Southern Ontario.
Hope everyone on the East coast weathered IRENE without major problems.