BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Mark Anderson on September 15, 2021, 07:06:27 PM
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Hi everyone,
I have this showing on my Intellidrive. See attached photo.
I am assuming there is some interlock causing this. What are the possibilities?
It is a 1998 Contessa, Magnum Chassis, Cat 3126
Thanks for any help!
Mark
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Used to have one of those. Silver leaf makes a great unit to replace it.
I believe you are on the set up screen and can choose to turn those elements on or off line by line.
There are people with better answers though so be patient as the International rally started today.
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Mark,
Tell us what you are experiencing with the engine. You are looking at the set up menu of the Engine Control Module (ECM). You may want to have Caterpillar tech connect to the OBD (on board diagnostics) to advise if there are stored codes having to do with the engine. Does the engine crank? Fred
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OK...kind of a long story. I have been stationary for about 3 months. We were getting ready to leave and it wouldn't start. It barely turned over. So I figured batteries were low. I tried the boost switch, no luck. Took the batteries out and had them tested. One was bad, the other was still good but nearing the end. So I replaced them both. At this point I noticed I lost all information to the Intellidrive (battery voltage, temperatures, etc.) Took the ECM to Holt Cat in San Antonio and they confirmed it was bad (no communication). They quoted me 3500 for a replacement. I decided to go with 1engineplus and I sent them my engine ser.# and a print out of my ECM summary. Got the ECM back in and this is where I'm at.
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Mark,
I don't quite understand what the ECM has to do with a slow cranking engine. Does it still turn over slowly or not. Do your gauges operate with the key in the "on" position? Fred
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Mark,
Can you scroll down and change the engine shutdown from on to off? I believe there is a manual in the help section for members. I haven't played with my Intellidrive recently, but I believe you can change most of those options. It may have been a way to keep unwanted people from borrowing your MH. Hopefully that's all this is.
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I believe the ECM died at some point between the first time I tried to start it and when I replaced the batteries because I did at one point see the battery voltage and temps displayed on the Intellidrive. I agree, I don't think the ECM was part of the original problem of not starting.
I'll see if I can locate a user manual for the intellidrive and see if there is a way to change it.
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Mark
I believe Fred is correct the first screen on the intelledrive is giving you information from the engine ECM .
Those are program perimeters in the ECM they can only be changed with Cat ET software by a dealer.
It sounds to me that your ECM died when the batteries where disconnected .
The older ECMs had a small battery on the printed circuit board which was there to maintain the program memory the problem occurs when the board mounted battery dies ( with age ) the ECM will work fine untill the first time the chassis. Battery goes dead or is disconnected when that happens the ECM programing is lost leaving the ECM inoperative
If I understand you have had the ECM rebuilt or repaired and the engine still doesn't start.
Have you connected to Cat ET checked for communication or checked for ECM power and grounds
Eric
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I guess I'll try and find someone that can connect to the ECM and check it out. Does it have to be a Cat dealer or will any diesel mechanic do? Closest Cat dealer is about 1.5 hrs away. I'll call around tomorrow and report back. Thanks for all the info and advice!
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Mark
Unfortunately although most shops should have software to connect to your Cat most won't have capability to access all the things that the Cat dealer with Cat ET software and cat dealer access codes which will allow them to make programing changes if needed.
Eric
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Now that your motor has a aftermarket ECM I don't know if Cat will even hookup to it, some of their shops are a bit picky about what they will hookup to. Might be a issue.
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Mark,
After reading thru this several times, I am trying to figure out what happened to the original ECM. The Electronic Control Module has Rom, Ram and an EEprom. It is designed to allow for a chassis batteries replacement. It does not have a CMOS memory battery internally to sustain information. When 12 volt power is restored, it boots up the ROM to restore all the internal programming. Cat has the ability to access the EEprom to change its parameters that govern engine performance. The only thing I can guess is that perhaps reverse polarity from the chassis battery may have damaged the ECM. But even that is only a guess because you would think Caterpillar has enough moxie to cover a potential mistake like that! Wish I could help further, I still think you need a Caterpillar technician with Cat computor software to analyze your present condition. Fred
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Hi Fred..I don't know what caused the ECM to go bad. I am worried about that. I changed the batteries myself they are connected properly. I just can't help feeling I did something to cause it. Maybe when I hit the boost? I never used it in the 2 years I have owned the coach. And I am not sure EXACTLY when I lost communication with the ECM. After I tried to start it the first time I looked at the Intellidrive and I saw my batteries had 12V. After I put the new batteries in and it still didnt start, that's when I noticed 0 volts on the Intellidrive and also noticed my check engine light and warm up light also didnt come on. Then I researched online and suspected a bad ECM. I removed it and took it to Cat to test and they confirmed no communication.
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Hi Mark,
Attached is a 1996 safari schematic that shows the basic wiring between the chassis batteries and the engine ECM. It also shows a 20 amp fuse between the batteries and the ECM. My coach has a fuse block just forward of the batteries on the sheet metal bulkhead that controls my ECM. I am not sure where yours may be located. Hope this helps, Fred
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Thanks Fred. Before I removed the ECM I did check voltages and grounds at the connectors to it. I cant remember the exact pins but they were all OK. The new ECM is installed and I have communication again. I just cant get this darn thing to start. I have a mechanic coming out to look at it.
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Mark,
Check the ignition solenoid in the front run compartment Driver side front. Should be powered on with the key "on". Also I think the starter solenoid is activated by a "trigger solenoid" mounted not too far from the starter. (looks like a standard Ford starter solenoid). Good Luck! Fred
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Mark
In your original post you where concerned that your intelledrive was show engine shut down turn ON.
I went out today and checked my intelledrive screen and it reads the same as yours does in the picture untill the engine is running and then it updates to engine shut down OFF
So I would not worry about the intelledrive readings
If your getting that screen you should be getting communication from the ECM which tells us the ECM is alive and well
At this point I'd go back to basics
1) rebleed the air from the fuel rail by running the priming pump several times
2) check to make sure you have fuel pressure at the fuel pressure regulator located at the rear of the cylinder head while cranking 60 psi at cranking should be enough.
3) check for air moving through the fuel rail by disconnecting the return line and installing a clear hose to monitor the flow looking for bubbles you should have a clear stream no bubbles.
the next step unfortunately requires Cat ET software or equivalent to check
4) First check for stored fault codes.
5) check with cat ET software the fuel injection actuation pressure
If actuation pressure is ok
6) check for injection electronic pulse .
Eric
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Mark, may I suggest there is a pig tail on your wiring J-1 ( the connector that go forward to your
key switch. Had this happen several times. Follow wires off your ECM again on J-1 for about 3 feet
and is fastened to frame rail on the passenger side, what you are looking for is a connector that
Wires from up front and wire pig tail of engine ECM join. In this connector there is a red wire that is the
12 volt power to the ECM ( pin 70 ) that will make your engine start and run. When you locate the
Connector take a test light an check for power on both sides on connector for 12 volt. You have everything going for you except no power to fire the injectors. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Mark,
Here is something else that I have run into. The coach had an alarm system installed previously that when activated locks out the starter. Even though the alarm may be turned off, when the batteries are changed and 12 volt is restored, the alarm resets itself if it thinks your trying to steal the vehicle. Look for additional wiring coming off the ignition switch that goes to a small module. Fred
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Mark
You may find this interesting.
http://beaveramb.org/forum/index.php?topic=563.0
Eric
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Hey everyone...I really, really appreciate all the feedback and suggestions.
Dave - when I removed the original ECM I did check voltage at some pins. I cant remember the exact numbers now for all of them but I do remember checking pin 70. There was one I checked for constant voltage (good), one I checked for switched voltage with the key on (good) and 2 grounds.
The new ECM installed I am assuming has a generic 7AS file flashed on to it with some possible RV parameters. The company I purchased it from asked the type of vehicle and they said they had an RV file. I have the parameters from my original ECM, which I sent them. It is a print out from the last time I had my RV in for service with Empire Cat in AZ. But let's assume they did not enter my specific parameters and I just have a generic flashed file in there. Is there anything that would prevent it from cranking? And is there anything that is critical to be correct for the engine to run properly?
When I turn the key there is a solenoid in the top of the battery bay that clicks. I looked at some schematics from a 98 Patriot and it seems that goes to the starter. I'm guessing if that solenoid is activating, shouldn't it engage the starter?
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Eric, thank you for checking that for me. I wont obsess about that engine off: on anymore! My issue is that it is not cranking at all right now. I just get a click from that solenoid in the battery compartment.
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Mark, the starter clicks at starter solenoid try this to check something, run. Jumper 12 volt wire from
battery to the small trigger wire on starter see if it solenoid will engage the starter. Note: there is
12 volt on/off running from key switch to pin 70 red wire ( lower left corner bottom on wire harness). Than you have 3 more 12 volt hot wires infused feeding the ECM also along with 4 ground wires going
to ECM also. I assume that what your dealing with is a 70 pin connector. The early 3126 engines have
a 40 pin connector going to the J-1 connection. If you need pin breakout I can lookup the pin wiring
for your engine. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Mark
If I understand correctly your current problem is a no crank condition
First check the rear run switch as it controls both ECM power a d crank signal's
Next
Do you have an read out at the Allison auto shift counsel ( required to give ECM neutral safety before ECM will activate crank)
I assume you do or you wouldn't have the click from primary solenoid .
Your unit likely has a 42 MT starter
Check the starter cables both ground and positive feeds and also check the wires connected to the secondary solenoid ( the one on the starter) there should be a ground wire coming off one of the small terminals on the starter going to the ground connection on the starter if it is broken or rotten the solenoid won't work
As Dave explained jump 12+ to the small start signal terminal at the starter if the starter cables are good the engine should
crank be careful under there if the ECM is getting power the engine should run.
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Mark,
The relay that is clicking in the battery compartment I believe is the "trigger solenoid" that sends the 12 volt signal to the starter solenoid. Do what Dave and Eric are saying. With the key ON jump 12 volt from the batteries over to the starter solenoid directly (smaller terminal). That should engage the starter and then get the engine running.
To check the operation of the solenoid that is clicking in your battery compartment do the following: With the key off, use your test light and check the stud at the 9:00 position or the 3:00 oclock. One of them should have 12 volt present. When the key is in the start position, the other stud that wasn't hot should NOW have 12 volt and should activate the starter solenoid. Please advise, Fred
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This is interesting...I went to take a picture of the starter to show you and verify I was jumping to the correct place. Doesn't it look like the wire is out of the connector and just sitting there? I'll have to check this out further after my class (I am teaching online while I travel). But that is the wire you wanted me to jump 12v to, correct?
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Mark
Looks like you found the problem
Reconnect the wire and tell us what happens
Eric
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I confirmed it. That wire was completely out of its crime just sitting on the bolt.
So I am going to put a new ring terminal on and try it.
Before I do that, I want to confirm with you guys regarding the new ECM that was installed. The ECM I bought could not be flashed using my old one due to no communication. So am correct to assume that some generic 7AS file was flashed to it? Like I said previously, I sent a printout of my old ECM summary to be programmed into it. But let's assume that was not done. Will the generic file that was flashed allow my engine to run without damaging it?
Thanks,
Mark
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Mark
Dave can probably answer that better but assuming the file they have downloaded is an appropriate cat program it should at the very least start and run if they down loaded from cat using your serial number it should be good to go.
the vehicle specific perimeters are the things to look for as being out such as road speed ( dependant on rear gear ratio) and things like fan control (weather it is an ECM controlled cooling fan or not) in your case it is not liking ECM controlled
If you can get it to crank and it has ECM power and grounds it should run barring a fuel or another issue.
Eric
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Thanks Eric...I feeling optimistic.
I'll update soon.
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Your photo seems clear enough. Either the wire to the solenoid is too short and stressed or the last guy that worked on it sloppily overtightened the mounting nut or misapplied the wire in the ring connector. Replacing the connector, with the correct wire size ring, should be all that’s necessary, aside from double checking the other connections. Make sure as you tighten down on the ring that you keep the wire lined up so it’s not turned to stress the wire again.
Be super slow and careful with wrenches in a tight area, though; it’s easy to accidentally short across to a ground, sparking in your face and burning up a component. Consider disconnecting the chassis battery bank temporarily.
Joel
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Ok...so I got a new connector on and it seems like it wants to crank but it's like the batteries are low or it's not getting enough power or there's a ground problem. I attached a video link so you guys can hear what it sounds like. Batteries are fully charged.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WkDPEF_u6x1iTy0ts6ATsT0NvyMBqv-i/view?usp=drivesdk
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Mark
If those batteries are fully charged I'd be checking cables and connections for resistance problems too much volt drop or too much starter current draw (bad starter )
First try the boost button and see if the coach batteries helping out make a difference.
Remember on that vintage coach the chassis batteries aren't charged by the inverter charger unless there has been an echo charger or some other battery combiner installed.
Next read the chassis battery voltage while cranking this will give you an idea wheather or not the starter has too much draw or if there is a connection/ resistance problem.
While cranking the battery voltage shouldn't drop much below 9.6 volts
Hope this helps
Eric
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Ok Mark, now we got engine to turn over but the batteries have to be charged to spin the engine.
My suggestion with all the attempted starts and engine does not start, the next place you will
need to check for air/fuel lock from cranking would be the return fuel pressure regulator. Location
on rear of head ( facing to front of motorhome) remove the return fuel hose facing on down side
of return fuel pressure regulator and attach a 1/2 clear plastic hose about 2 feet long and put open
end into a plastic container. Then turn engine over to see how much air is coming out of plastic hose.
Note: when fuel rail is charged with diesel there will be no air bubbles.
Last ECM just put on, the engine should start and run and idle. About the only functions that do not
operate will be minor that can be addressed. Again now that engine spins over with strong batteries,
you need to address the diesel fuel problem that may be air locked on fuel rail as Dave explained
the next step before engine will run. Dave atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Hi guys...Just to be sure about something...what are the correct batteries that should be in there? I replaced them with what I thought were the same, but maybe not? I don't know. It just seems like these batteries are providing enough juice. They have 950 cranking amps, but is there something else I should be looking at?
I"m in a small town in Texas so my choices were limited on batteries when I bought these. What kind do you guys recommend?
Also what is the best method to charge them? Should I take them off or can I leave them connected? I have always wondered the best way to charge these big batteries that are wired in parallel.
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Mark,
The Chassis batteries are considered "cranking batteries". They are designed to give short bursts of high energy (amperes). 950 cold cranking amperes would be the minimum for each of the 2 chassis batteries. The house batteries are "deep cycle" batteries and are designed to give you a long amount of "useable" 12 volts to run your interior support systems.
Your coach has no means to charge the chassis batteries other than driving the coach. The Marquis came with a device called an Echo charger, Once the echo charger saw 13.2 volts for more than a minute, it latched unto the chassis batteries and sent a trickle charge to maintain them. There are similar after-market devises out there that do the same thing. A solar panel of 160 watts would keep everything maintained in storage if you had an Echo charger.
Not sure if you got your engine started, if not, how did you charge the new chassis batteries? Fred
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Mark
The batteries for the. Chassis are 31S series batteries the "S" stands for stud referring to the cable mounting configuration
There are several CCA ratings in that same size battery the highest being an 1100 CCA rating although when buying batteries you should always pick the highest CCA you can the 950s should do the job at hand .
In jour video of the engine cranking it sure sounds as though the batteries are dead.
The easiest way to charge those chassis batteries with out using an external battery charger is to simply connect a set of booster cables from the coach batteries to the chassis batteries and with the coach plugged in the inverter charger should charge them up for you .
I did that for a year or more before I finely broke down and installed a battery combiner.
FYI the engines ECM has a small perasitic draw which over an extended period of time will discharge the batteries to the point they can't crank the engine much like yours are.
Hope this answers your questions
Eric
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Update: She runs! I had to run a jumper cable from positive to the starter and it started right up...oh was a beautiful sound after 17 days of this. So there is something up with that cable from the battery to starter. I guess I'll replace both cable lugs first.
What do you guys think? Does the positive from the battery run straight to the starter?
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Yes
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Gentlemen, helping Mark get up and running is another reason why this forum is so great for
all membership. Different views, different ideas among members working together as a team
with one goal To help fellow member get up and running. Thank you, Dave Atherton Retired Cat
Mechanic
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I agree. I want to thank everyone for the advice and support to get me on the road again. It is so nice to know that I'm not alone when something happens.
I would also like to summarize the problem and ultimate fix.
Original problem: No Crank
I had several issues:
1.) 1 dead battery and one near end of life (replaced both)
2.) Wire came loose from connector on starter solenoid causing an intermittent slow crank/no crank
3.) Positive cable from battery to starter is bad causing slow crank. Most likely either connector at battery or connector at starter is bad. I will be replacing both.
4.) At some point during the early stages of troubleshooting the ECM died. I believe this was self inflicted but do not know exactly the cause. It may have been when I was changing batteries, hitting the battery boost, or battery charging. Most likely it was the battery change.
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Mark,
Glad you made it to the finish line and you did not loose heart. These coaches are difficult at times and we all understand that. Risk and reward is the on going battle but hang in there because we love the reward and the freedom it affords us. This is one of the reasons why we try to help!
When you replace the lugs on the 3.0 gauge battery cables, Use "closed end" lugs and heat shrink to keep future corrosion out. Strip back the insulation until copper is seen, then crimp or solder.
Blessings & Joy, Fred
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Mark , one last thing question, will you be in AZ. this winter or planing on attending the Beaver
rally in the desert this coming January. The reason for the question if yes I, can help complete
your ECM replacement. I have Caterpillar ET where I can readout and print out all information that
is now programmed into the new ECM for your records and check out engine parameters.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Will do, Fred. Thanks for the tip.
Dave, we were planning on going to Arizona in the winter. I will have to see about making it to Quartzite. I know it it would be well worth the trip to have you take a peek inside our computer.
We made it to our next destination today. It ran great, just like it did before.so that makes me feel good. We are just outside Kerrville, TX at the moment and will be here until November then we are heading West. So it may work out. I will look up the info on the rally in Quartzite.
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Mark,
Great to hear you are on the road and all is good. I will be at the Beaver Quartzite rally in early January so perhaps we will get to meet.
Enclosed a pix of how far corrosion can migrate up under the insulation on a battery cable, especially if it is an "open-ended" lug. I pulled the insulation back to reveal the hidden resistance. Fred
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Well folks,
As I was running some additional 6 gage cable thru my engine compartment for a solar array that I was installing, I came across this solenoid mounted on a bulkhead above the engine compressor dryer on the backside of the battery compartment. It turns out to be the "trigger solenoid" for the engine starter solenoid. I had previously stated in a post earlier that my 2000 Marquis did not have one. Well, I stand corrected! Just thought I would share this for those who may be trouble-shooting an engine start issue. Happy New Year! Fred
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Fred thanks for the continued info you share with us. its amazing how much i don't know about my MH , I am on egg shells every time we take a trip. Having an older MH does increase my worry. again thanks !
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Thanks Mike,
For the past 25 years, I have worked on Country Coach, Newmar, American Eagle, Allegro, Monaco, Entegra, Foretravel, Prevost, and Beavers. There is a reason why I own a Beaver. It is one of the Best and most dependable coaches out there. Their engineering is proven and chassis is right up there with Spartan.
Enjoy your travels Mike and be confident! You own one of the best. Fred Brooks