BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Mike Shumack on November 07, 2021, 04:44:17 PM
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My Surge Guard 40250 Transfer Switch is not switching to shore power properly. When I plug in my 20A shore power cord (home storage) the switch keeps engaging and disengaging over and over. It s cluck, clunk, clunk, etc. If I unplug and re-plug a couple of times it will eventually stay locked in. I have not seen this behavior while camping (on 50A shore power) yet - but I think it is a matter of time.
so I'm thinking I'm going to need to replace it before it fails completely while I'm away from home. It looks like I can still get the 40250 model (which has the RJ11 jack for connecting to the Aladdin).
before I buy anything I thought I'd ask here - in case I missed some other potential cause of this problem. I did pull the cover and check the tightness of each conductor. Everything is tight and looks normal inside.
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Mike,
Per the troubleshooting manual, the contacts will disengage for the following reasons; High or Low voltage or incorrect ground. Have you checked the supply and cord from the shore outlet to verify correct voltage and ground?
Steve
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I recently had a similar problem. Bottom line my house batteries were bad and I had a broken ground wire that only had a few wires left to connect power to. So0metimes it would be a quick clunk, maybe 5 min. maybe 30 min.
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Mike,
Can you please share where you’ve found the 40250 with the serial data interface?
Thanks, Scott
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Mike,
Per the troubleshooting manual, the contacts will disengage for the following reasons; High or Low voltage or incorrect ground. Have you checked the supply and cord from the shore outlet to verify correct voltage and ground?
Steve
I have not tested the shore power cable or voltage supplied to the transfer switch. I'm running a 10GA 100 ft extension cable from a receptacle in my garage to the coach. The cable looks fine, and if fairly new. I suppose I could remove the cover to the Transfer Switch and attach my volt meter to the incoming wires to see what the incoming voltage is.
Why would the TS "eventually connect" if the incoming voltage was low? I suppose it could be teetering on the brink of in-range and too low.
Scott, I spoke too soon. Initially when I Googled "SurgeGuard 40250" I saw plenty of links, but now it's looking like most of those were showing for the 40260 model or an "out of stock" 40250. Ebay has a used one. So it's not looking so good. There are probably a few remaining at the RV salvage sites too. But I'm not seeing any new stock now.
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20 amp over 100+ feet can get funky, even with a 10 or 12 gauge… been there, dun that. It wasn’t too big of a deal with our old ‘84 Pace Arrow where you didn’t see a problem until maybe something burned up, and most devices held up regardless, but it didn’t have a sophisticated, intentionally protective switch like these rigs. Yes, before blaming the switch (for doing its job) I’d definitely check voltage at the switch vs at the outlet to see what the drop is. The Aladdin may give the incoming number also.
Joel
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Mike, I have the same surge protector as you, and I also have a 100 foot 12 gauge power cord plugged in to an outside outlet on the garage. I've never experienced the symptoms you describe.
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I measured voltage at the extension cord - and I have 122VAC.
Then I measured at the contacts inside the transfer switch. When I plug in (and the Inverter Powers on) I see 114 to 116VAC on my meter.
The SurgeGuard manual says the acceptable operating voltage is 105 - 132 VAC, so I'm within that range.
Also when I first plug in, and the contactor is being pulled in and then popping out, repeatedly (the "clunk" sound) my Aladdin display just shows "No Shore Power" so it doesn't provide any diagnostic help. It only shows the 114VAC when the contactor stays In (engaged). Should it be displaying "Low Voltage" if that was the problem? I don't know what the Aladdin displays in this regard since I have never seen an error/fault message.
I thinking the "control contactor" may be going bad. It is a Cutler-Hammer C65FNF360. There should be an "A" at the end of the part number (I believe) which indicates a "110-120V coil" in the contactor according the spec sheet.
If this contactor is available, that may be worth replacing. I'm not 100% convinced that is the problem yet, but I am leaning that way.
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Mike,
Since the inputs are in the spec'ed range, I tend agree that the control contactor is failing. I'd order the same part # since even on the new units I looked at the trailing A is not displayed.
Steve
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It's not looking too good on getting just the control contactor. This contactor was probably not a high production item, so not readily available.
I did order a "used" SurgeGuard 40250RV. Supposedly it has been "tested". I'll continue to use the old one until it fails completely (or I can get parts to replace the contactor at a reasonable price). At least I have a backup plan with the "used" one coming.
I'll keep looking for the contactor. If I can get one for under $350 it is probably worth rebuilding my current 40250. But I'm not willing to pay the prices I've seen on those that are available.
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Mike,
I have seen an error message on our Aladdin display a couple of times, ‘Open Neutral’ and ‘Input Low Freq’. The messages were in red and as I recall, only displayed during the delay phase.
If the ATS doesn’t see AC power, the display should read ‘NO AC POWER PRESENT’, if the ATS has disconnected because it thinks that there is an error condition, I believe the display will read ‘NO AC POWER SELECTED’.
I realize that the shore and generator contactors are separate, but will the ATS connect on generator power? I think that both power sources share some of the surge protection circuitry.
-Scott
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Scott, the ATS works fine most of the time. The only issue I have seen is when I plug into my 20A Shore power (home storage). I have never seen a problem with the ATS when connecting to 50A campground power or running the Generator. So I don't know if this is just an issue with my "home storage" connection, or an early sigh of something going wrong.
As I post above, the issue is that on the 20A plugin the contactor wont stay pulled in. I can watch the contactor pull in and drop out, pull in drop out, about a dozen times before it stays in. Maybe the contactor coil is going bad - possibly there is some electronic fault monitoring circuit that is going bad. Or maybe the problem is completely due to my 20A service (extension cord plugged into garage receptacle) and there is a real fault. However I did not have this issue when I first started plugging in at home three years ago. And it seems to be getting worse.
I'm in Florida and we have frequent power blackouts (usually for a couple of seconds or minutes) during the summer storms. I have not thought to go out and see how the ATS is recovering from these outages. Now that I think about it, I am concerned that if that contactor is repeatedly failing it could get worse and maybe start a fire. Next power outage I'll go out and see if it is acting up when power is restored - I suspect it would.
Thanks for posting.
I found a used transfer switch and will keep that as a backup in case mine fails completely or gets worse. It would have been nice if I could just replace the contactor, but the prices I have seen for the contactor are higher than buying a complete new transfer switch.
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Mike
I suspect that what is happening is the contactor pulls in and your inverter starts to charge which takes a large inrush of current which in turn creates a volt drop large enough to cause the drop out.
You should be able to run on a 20 amp source but the size and length of the cord is critical to avoid too much volt drop.
Eric
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I think you're right Eric.
The contactor dropout does seem to start with the Invertor fan coming on (Inverter powering up) - about 1 or 2 seconds after I plug in my 20A shore power. I'm not seeing the voltage drop below 114VAC at the contactor terminals when the contractor drops out - maybe the contactor "pull-in coil" is seeing less voltage or just getting weaker.
Maybe it will help if I lower the "Set Shore Power" setting from 20A (my current setting) to 15A. I don't know if this will reduce the inrush current or not. But I'm guessing the inrush current is going to be the same regardless of the Set Shore Power setting. But I'll give this a try.
The Xantrex manual says this Set Shore Power setting is to reduce the battery charger rate if the AC load and Battery charge load approach the Shore Power circuit breaker rating. So the normal setting is to match it to the circuit breaker size for the shore power (or generator).
BTW - it wont help to turn off the Inverter before I plug in, as the manual says the battery charger is still On (whenever AC voltage is present) regardless of the On/Off switch position.
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Mike,
Eric is probably correct. However, since this circuit setup worked for a number of years, if I read your write-up correctly, something has changed to cause the problem. Some things to consider; Why isn't the garage circuit breaker tripping? If the inverter is applying enough of a load to drop the voltage from 120+ to less than 105, it's drawing considerable amperage. Are all the connections tight from the garage CB to to the RV? Have you tried a extension cords?
Steve
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We were hooked up to some iffy 30a shore power connections this summer. A couple of times, I had to set the inverter to 15a (shore power) in order to get the charge amps low enough as to not trip the shore power breaker. So setting the inverter to 15a might work.
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Mike
I'm not sure which inverter you have but if your running on a 20 amp circuit your inverter should have a setting to limit it's charge rate based on the shore power input amperage to avoid over taxing the shore power circuit breaker as Steve mentioned .
It may be worth checking to see if you have the inverter set for a 20 ,30 or 50 amp input setting.
If it is I would be suspect of the cord your using perhaps too long or to small a wire gauge for the length and amp draw it should be at least a 12 that's wire for 20 amps and heavier if the length is more than 25 ft.
If the cord is heavy enough I would look very closely at the connections and you adapters for burnt connections or poor (loose connections ) or maybe try another plug in your garage the problem might be a connection in the garage or breaker panel.
Eric
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Mike,
Eric is probably correct. However, since this circuit setup worked for a number of years, if I read your write-up correctly, something has changed to cause the problem. Some things to consider; Why isn't the garage circuit breaker tripping? If the inverter is applying enough of a load to drop the voltage from 120+ to less than 105, it's drawing considerable amperage. Are all the connections tight from the garage CB to to the RV? Have you tried a extension cords?
Steve
Steve, the voltage drops from 122VAC to around 114 or 116.
No breakers are tripping in my garage or the coach. I checked the tightness of the wire connections in the SurgeGuard. They are torqued to 41 in-lbs.
I have not tried anything else.
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Mike
I'm not sure which inverter you have but if your running on a 20 amp circuit your inverter should have a setting to limit it's charge rate based on the shore power input amperage to avoid over taxing the shore power circuit breaker as Steve mentioned .
It may be worth checking to see if you have the inverter set for a 20 ,30 or 50 amp input setting.
If it is I would be suspect of the cord your using perhaps too long or to small a wire gauge for the length and amp draw it should be at least a 12 that's wire for 20 amps and heavier if the length is more than 25 ft.
If the cord is heavy enough I would look very closely at the connections and you adapters for burnt connections or poor (loose connections ) or maybe try another plug in your garage the problem might be a connection in the garage or breaker panel.
Eric
Eric, the Inverter input (a.k.a. "Shore Power" setting) is set to 20A. The breaker in my garage is a 20A and has never tripped. The extension cord I'm using is 10ga 100 ft. Then it goes to a 20A to 30A reducer and that plugs into the 30A to 50A which plugs into my coach's shore power cable. But I have enough voltage at the SurgeGuard (at least 114VAC) so it looks like the problem is in the SurgeGuard.
I don't see the voltage dropping below 114VAC - however there could still be an intermittent fault (ground issue or open neutral) I suppose. I'm not sure if I would see those faults on the Aladdin screen since the Aladdin is just showing "No Shore Power" while its trying to connect. Once it connects the Aladdin shows everything is normal.
It's a Xantrex 2512GS.
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Mike
The volt drop that you stated is well within the working limits of the surge protector ( monitor) .
At this point I'd dona volt test at the contactor pull in coil to see if the controller is shutting down the contactor or the contactor coil is faulty and just dropping out.
Using a volt drop calculator a 120 volt circuit over 25 feet on a 12 ga wire and a 20 amp load should yield an end voltage of 118 volts of course the end voltage is reliant on the nominal voltage at the panel which varies depending on the local supplier and their infrastructure.
Eric
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At this point I'd do a volt test at the contactor pull in coil to see if the controller is shutting down the contactor or the contactor coil is faulty and just dropping out.
I'm not sure where the coil connections are located inside the Surge Guard unit. Can the voltage to it be measured or is it internal to the contactor? It's easy to see/measure the voltage at the "incoming wires" but beyond that I don't know what wires/connections go to the coil or where it is located.
Do you see anything in this photo indicating the connection (measuring point) for the pull-in coil? (ignore the yellow arrows, I was using that for a different post)
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Mike
I don't see the leads in the picture but there must be a pair which run to the circuit board to control the contactor after all it's the circuit board which ultimately decides wheather or not to connect the incoming power to the coach with that contactor.
I would assume the leads to the coil set are likely closer to the mounting base and the lead will run directly over to the circuit board.
I'm not sure how easy it will be to access them or get meter leads connected but that's about the only way to know wheather it's the pulling coil at fault or a controller issue.
Eric
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We had reliability issues, it turned out the was a intermittent short in the plug attached to the coach.
twisting the cord by the plug allowed it to show up
It also showed up at first when we were plugged into a 20 amp plug
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That's a good point.
I did first suspect the 50A to 30A adapter. My Coach came with two and the first one (when my problem first started a year ago) seemed to be related to the adapter. I tossed that one out and now use the other adapter, but the problem still occurs Maybe I should toss that one too. It looks fine on the outside, but one can't see inside it.
Currently I use a 50A to 30A and a 30A to 20A plugged into that.
Does anyone make a single one-piece adapter for 50A to 20A?
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Amazon has a couple of 20 amp to 50 amp adapters. I am assuming you are plugging into a 15 amp or 20 amp receptacle in your house and going to the 50 amp cord on your coach. In that case, you want a one-piece 15/20 amp to 50 amp adapter.
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Amazon has a couple of 20 amp to 50 amp adapters. I am assuming you are plugging into a 15 amp or 20 amp receptacle in your house and going to the 50 amp cord on your coach. In that case, you want a one-piece 15/20 amp to 50 amp adapter.
Yes. That's what I'm doing.
I'll get another adapter just be sure that's not the problem, or contributing to the problem.
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Mike
I know this is an old thread, but I am having the same problem. My ATS is dropping out and reconnecting randomly after it gets hot. It is doing it on both shore power and generator power. I would just replace the ATS, but I don't want to give up my Aladdin. Replacement contactors for the 40250 are simply not available. What was your solution and does anyone else have suggestions as how to proceed. Can the 40260 be made backward compatible with the Aladdin?
Richard
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Reset your inverter-follow steps in your manual. Happened to me too
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Unplug the battery temp sensor from your inverter
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Bill
I am puzzled by your suggestion. My inverter is turned off and my battery charger is on standby. How can it be possible that the inverter/charger can in any way influence the function of the ATS. I'm confused.
Richard
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Just a note, #12 wire is good for only 16 amps continous, the 20 amps is for short time only.
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Richard,
You might want to try cleaning the transfer switch contacts. I they are dirty/corroded they can cause a resistive contact that will build up heat.
Steve
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Can't tell you why, just what worked for me. No problem since removing temp sensor.
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Thanks to all who have responded with suggestions. I have finally resolved my issues. I removed, disassembled and cleaned the 40250 ATS. After reassembly, things were better except the ATS was still dropping contact when on generator with a load of over 20 amps. I tested the generator output under load and found that voltage was dropping below 100 volts. The 40250 ATS is designed to drop out if voltage drops below 105 volts, so it was doing what it is supposed to do. I ordered and replaced the circuit breaker on my Onan QD8000. Now everything is happy and functions as it should. If anyone is in need of a 35 amp two pole circuit breaker that Onan used on the 7.5 and 8K generators, I found it on Amazon from the OEM manufacturer (AIRPAX, IEG66-28333-2-V) for about 2/3 of what Cummins wanted for it.
All's good that ends well.
Richard
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;)
So many times the transfer switch is suspect due to symptoms, but turns out to be doing the job as designed, and the primary issue is elsewhere.
Joel