BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Albert Balika on May 28, 2022, 09:52:20 AM
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I have a 2007 Contessa Bayshore 42ft C-9. Over the past few months, when warming the engine at idle, the engine occasionally (three times) quit and the Aladdin screen said "ignition shutting off in a few seconds". I waited a few minutes and the engine started as normal and continued to run. Recently, on my way from Prescott, Az. to Montrose, Co., while climbing a moderate grade in cruise control, the dash "air heater" and "check engine" light came on for a second and then went out. I fueled up about fifty miles later and added some "Howe" diesel treatment and drove to Ridgway, Co., over some major mountain grades for 130 miles and the coach ran perfectly until coming into town at idle speed and the engine stopped. I pulled off the road, waited a few minutes and started the engine. It started, but took a few seconds for me to get the RPM's up as the engine seemed to be starving for fuel for a few seconds. I put the coach in gear and we drove another 20 miles to our destination and the engine ran normal. ANY suggestions as to what might be the problem?
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Albert
I had the same issues with my 2006 C9. The ignition solenoid located in the front run bay below the driver was failing. It is a common fail issue. It is a continuous duty solenoid, so if you are replacing it be sure to get a continuous duty one (I found one at NAPA). Also, pay attention to the direction of installation of the small diode that is installed between the 2 activation wires. Hope your problem is as simple as that. Good luck.
Richard
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Richard, Thank you for your response. Those 4 relays are marked R-1, R-2, R-3 and R-4. Do you remember which one you replaced? Also, I don't see a diode. If you want to call me at 303 913-8031, I would appreciate you talking me through this. It appears all of these relays are identical. I want to make sure I am working on the correct one. Thanks, Albert
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Albert
The solenoid I am referring to is not one of those relays. Try this link:
https://www.amazon.com/Cole-Hersee-24059-BP-Insulated-Continuous/dp/B0064MX7US
I will try to attach a picture so you will know what it looks like.
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This is a link to a picture showing the ignition solenoid's location in the front electrical bay. Note the location of the diode on the solenoid in the picture.
http://beaveramb.org/forum/index.php/topic,10072.msg68624.html#msg68624
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Richard, Thanks for the photo. I do not have a solenoid that looks like the one you sent. So back to square one. Thanks anyway.
David, As I mentioned, my engine stopped three times. I can't accept that is a characteristic of a C-9 engine, particularly since it has never happened in 97,000 miles until recently. The safety issue alone requires me to solve the problem. Any help would be appreciated.
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My suggestion for diagnosing the intermittent engine shutdown is to take the coach to a shop that has the proper equipment to read the error code/s thrown by the engine when it shuts down. The error code should point you in the right direction to obtain a successful repair.
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Albert, we have had a similar experience and I drained the water fuel seperator and it solved the problem. Subsequently I did change both fuel filters. Looking forward to getting an answer on where that ignition silinoid is located on our 07 Contessa.
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Albert
It is certainly possible that your issue is fuel related (either water or air in the fuel). However, the message on the Alladin is the message that pops up when the ignition is turned off and the Alladin is shutting down. For that reason, I believe your issue is a loss of power on the ignition circuit. Your 2007 is obviously not wired like my 2006 since you do not have that ignition solenoid in the front run bay. But, the capability of a relay/solenoid in the ignition circuit has to exist somewhere, because the ignition switch itself does not have the capability to carry that much current on a continuing basis. I still believe you are losing connectivity in the ignition circuit (just as if you turned the ignition switch off). Perhaps it is something as simple as a loose connection on the ignition switch itself. Hopefully someone with knowledge of how the 2007 ignition circuit is wired can chime in and provide you assistance. Best of luck.
Richard
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Thank you all for your input. I too want to know where the ignition solenoid is specifically located, that way I can check for loose wiring, etc. When and if I find out I will post it for all of us. Meanwhile, I am going to start with the basics; replace (rather than drain) the water separator and replace the primary fuel filter. I understand that the "injection accusation pressure sensor" could be the culprit and I actually have a new one in my now extensive "parts department". I will also replace it if necessary after, as suggested, I have a diagnostic done. I have had the interior hatch off of the engine compartment and I can not locate the pressure sensor. Any direction would be appreciated. I understand there are two fuel pumps, a low pressure and a high pressure pump and that one of those not functioning properly could cause this problem. Any comments or other suggestions would be welcome. Thanks, Albert
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When I first read your initial post I thought of your fuel filters leaking air or needing replacement, or excess water in the fuel. As Dave Atherton has noted to club members, a C9 can benefit also from a booster pump addition, especially in longer coaches.
But as others describe, the ignition solenoid (I’m not sure how you got “relays” inferred) is a common problem. Worn and/or burned contact points inside it can be cause for dashboard, accessory, and engine electrical intermittent aggravations because so many things depend on that solenoid. It can be replaced with an electronic one but at some expense. It wouldn’t be the first time I was surprised by a coach, unlike mine and most, having a common device located in another location; but are you sure it’s not in your streetside front most electrical bay? It’s the part that looks like Richard’s photo above of the Cole-Hersee 24059.
Joel
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Albert
I did a search of the forum relating to this issue. Here is a quote from Gerald Farris regarding the ignition solenoid:
In the latter model Monaco built coaches, "Multiplex" circuits were used in some of the chassis systems, not necessarily because they were needed but because they could. Therefore, if your coach has "Multiplex" chassis circuits, the solenoid mentioned above will not exist as pictured in the photos.
Gerald
This may give you some insight into how your coach is wired. Others noted that if your coach had the start capability in the engine compartment then the ignition solenoid was located there. And the search goes on.
Richard
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I absolutely do not have a solenoid like that pictured in my electrical bay. I do, however, have relays, specifically R-2 labeled "VCN IGN", R-3 labeled "VCO IGN" and R-10 labeled "IGN". I haven't a clue as to whether or not these are related to my problem in that there is no description as to what they are for. They are easy to replace, but it would be helpful to know if any of these relate to my problem. I dodn't know how you guys feel about these kinds of problems, but I find it remarkable that Beaver/Monaco doesn't have as built plans for our coaches, as it would make things much easier to evaluate. It is a fact that our older coaches still promote their new products. I think they have what we need, they simply don't want to spend the money and resources to support us - very disappointing to say the least. I developed high rise office buildings for a living and we had comprehensive plans for each building that would endure forever. If you have a clue as to what thee relays are for, or any other suggestions, I would appreciate a response. Thanks, Albert
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Albert,
Have you tried going to our "coach assist" and scroll down to 07 Contessa wiring diagrams? Sorry about your frustration about support. Alot of intellectual property was lost from Monaco to Navastar and after Monaco didn't pay Kongsberg for their chassis multiplexing there is zero support from them. The present company that owns Monaco doesn't seem to be interested in supporting older coaches. Fred
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Albert,
It looks like Monaco used multiple relays to provide ignition voltage to the coach rather than a single ignition solenoid. I found the following.
(See the 08 Contessa wiring diagrams in Coach Assist as the 07 diagram set is not complete).
See pg 30-31 for the possible relays that could be causing your failure. You can also find them on ppgs 9,10,12,14,16,&24.
R1 powers the rear run box including the BIRD system.
R2 powers cabin A/C, fog lights, and shifter panel.
R3 is for vacuum pump and ABS.
R10 powers day/night light module, step controller, etc.
I would start with R2 since the engine needs a signal from the shifter panel to run. Alternately you could replace all 4 relays.
Steve
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Steve and Fred, As always, your input is invaluable to mechanically challenged folks like me. I actually went to the electrical diagrams mentioned about a year ago based on your suggestions, made copies of all charts therein, laminated them and keep them in the compartment under driver seat. That's the good news. The bad news is I don't know what each of them are for. I will do as you suggest Fred, and replace all of the relays you identified. I actually bought several of these relays last year. It has been suggested that my problem may be related to the "injection accusation pressure sensor" failure. So now, I am looking at the following possibilities, 1) changing the primary and secondary fuel filters, 2) replacing the related relays, 3) possible draining and cleaning fuel tank, 4) possibility of replacing the "low pressure fuel pump", 4) replacing the "injection accusation pressure sensor. Again, all comments and suggestions are welcome. Thanks, Albert
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Albert
The pressure actuation solenoid controls the huei oil pressure on to the injectors the ending ECM dictates the injection pressure and uses a sensor to read the oil pressure down stream of the pressure actuation solenoid .if for some reason the ECM doesn't see the pressure it has requested from the pressure actuation sensor it will set a fault code .
You may be looking at two different problems
Because as you stated the engine was hard to restart as if it was starved for fuel I would start by
1) run a scan tool on the engine ECM ( preferably Cat ET software ) looking for fault codes and or any history of derate event or forced shut down) at this time a injection actuation pressure test can be run to verify function.
With cat ET you can also read the ignition source voltage to the ECM to see if that is your problem.
2)changing both the water separator and the fuel filters ( dump the water separator contents into a jar and inspect for water and dirt the cut the filter can open and spread out the filter element to see how dirty it is)
3) run a fuel rail pressure test to see if the primary fuel pump can meet specified rail pressure and that the fuel pressure regulator hasn't gone bad.
4) check for air in the fuel at the fuel rail return ( air can be introduced into the system on the suction side of the primary fuel pump by a back connection or bad suction side fuel line
If your Aladin system is warning you of an imminent ignition system shutting down the only place I can think that it can get that information from is the engine ECM .
The ECM may do this for several reasons over heating , low oil pressure , low coolant level are just a few
BTW coolant level sensors are usually add by the coach builder and not the engine manufacturer and are a common fail item.
The hard stat and inability to pick up rpm would most likely be fuel related issues ( air in the fuel or plugged fuel filter)
Sorry to go on so long
Hope this helps
Eric
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Fred and Steve, As always, thanks for your help. I am going to change all of those relays. I am also going to change the primary and secondary fuel filters. I understand that the "injection accusation pressure sensor" may be the culprit. Again, our club should be eternally grateful to you folks and others for helping us mechanically challenged owners navigate these problems. I can't imagine what owning one of these rigs would be like without your more than generous help. Any suggestions and comments would be welcomed. Regards, Albert
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Did you check out "Ask Dave" under technical? Look towards the end under intermittent shut down. Fred
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The symptoms you described sound exactly like what I experienced on my 1996 Monterey. When that solenoid fails it kills the power to the ignition side of the power buss. Find and replace that solenoid. That should cure your problem.
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Problem is, Roy, he apparently doesn’t have the solenoid that most of us do. Ignition reliant devices are supplied by relays.