BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Pierce LeFevre Jr on October 21, 2024, 05:16:42 PM
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Good Day all,
New BAC member and first forum post here. My coach is a 2002 Patriot Thunder 455. I've had 2 years and so far have been able to DIY fix/repair any issues I've experienced. Current issue is that main large slide out seems to catch on one side after extending about 4 inches, while the other side continues to move outward. I noticed this the first time it happened and stopped extending immediately so it wouldn't get racked. I hit retract and the slide came back in no problem. I've tried again several times and it seems to hang up on that one side in the same spot (about 4 inches out) each time. It's the inner, mid coach side of the slide that stops moving outward. Again, I'm careful to watch and stop extending as soon as that one side stops moving outward. The main single, hydraulic piston was rebuilt about a year ago when I noticed the slide would sag out a little over time and that the piston appeared to be leaking slightly. After that, it has worked well until now.
Is there a procedure for manually extending the slide so the mechanism underneath can be examined? Neglecting more timely cleaning and lubricating, I'm thinking, has probably lead to my current issue of that side not rolling out freely.
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Pierce,
Have you inspected the interior at either end of the slide? Sometimes a broom or other stuff falls in behind the "horse shoe trim? Does your coach slide out have 2 outriggers with teeth on the bottom for a spur gear? If you have a single hydraulic cylinder, then there should be a cross-shaft with 2 spur gears to keep the room "timed" when extending or retracting. Is there any indication that the room is dropping down at the time it stops? This past summer I hit a pot hole in Texas that punched a hole in the bottom of the room where the roller is. I had to buy sheet metal and laminate it to the bottom of the room where the room travels over the roller. If you have a bottle jack and a 2 x 4, you may try supporting the room and raising it up a 1/2" as you extend it. If you could pull the bottom wiper seal down and look with a mirror and flashlight, you may see where it is hanging up. Hope this helps, Fred
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I was thinking a broken cog on a pinion gear or a slipping pinion from a broken Allen screw or pin, but though I’ve encountered such things on farm equipment, I was hesitant to postulate such on a slide-out mechanism that I know squat about. So I reviewed YouTube videos for some insight… there are many. Though our rig has an HWH system, I saw one Lippert-produced video that references their own spur gear that looks like ours. So if with Fred’s experienced suggestions implemented you find no issues, you might check the pinions (spurs) and racks for integral teeth.
If there are two hydraulic rams instead of one, check for leaking around the hose connections for the one on the jamming side. If it’s like ours, there is a single HWH ram/cylinder which if leaking would presumably affect both racks. An adjustment may be all that’s needed, but a thorough exam of the mechanism as Fred advises is the first step. Admittedly, exposing that assemblage would be more ideal if you could get full extension, but you don’t want to force that which shouldn’t be forced. You may have to crawl underneath the Coach for the exam, but bay compartments may be obstructive; ours are attached to the slide and the slide drive can fortunately be seen above them when extended.
Search “Lippert Through Frame Slide-out Troubleshooting V1” as a start.
There is a procedure for pushing back in a stuck extended slide, but you must relieve hydraulic pressure by carefully backing out solenoid nuts a few turns on the manifold commonly found with the tank on the frame under the entry steps; it may be elsewhere on some models. I’d assume you could push a retracted one out similarly, but you’d need multiple people involved, and some rather original thinking/engineering; one video producer laid on the floor and using care pressed with his feet on sidewall edges. A companion on the other sidewall pressing equally would obviously be advised.
Joel
Lippert spur gear below.
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Fred and Joel, thank you gentlemen. Your time is much appreciated. My setup is the single hydraulic piston in the center (recently rebuilt) with the 2 toothed outriggers on each side. It also has the attached left side compartments mentioned that unfortunately cover up seeing all of this described mechanism when retracted. I watched and found the Lippert hydraulic slide adjustment video extremely helpful. If not exactly the same as we have, the Lippert stuff looked extremely similar to what I remember seeing when mine was extended in the past for cleaning/lubrication.
So with no inside physical obstruction per Fred's advice, I was thinking from the start more along the lines of what you eluded to Joel. Which was how to relieve hydraulic pressure on the system, so it could be jacked out slowly and evenly. I like the bottle jack(s) suggestion against the opposite side walls and maybe cutting ever longer 2 x 4's as needed (limited length of bottle jack travel) to hopefully ease it out and past whatever obstruction I'm experiencing. Finding the block with relief valve/screw you mentioned Joel will be my next challenge. I'll look under the front steps and will research more online to hopefully find further detailed description and/or pictures so I'll know it when I find it. Any more knowledge from anyone on this hydraulic relief greatly appreciated! Thanks again guys.
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Pierce,
Once you locate the HWH pump (usually located just forward of the entry step well) you will find the solenoids pack that control the jacks and slide out. Depending on the hwh system you have, you need to locate the 2 solenoids that control the slide out. Note: sometimes unplugging the solenoid will reveal which device is now inoperative, this method takes time but will eventually take you to the one that "extends" the room. Remove the hydraulic fill cap on top of the reservoir. You will notice inside the cap is a 1/4" socket. Put that socket on the 1/4" nut on the end of the solenoid and turn NO more than 4 1/2 turns counter-clockwise to relieve the hydraulic pressure in the system. You should be able to extend the room manually with some help. Hope this helps, Fred
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As I recall, the solenoids are in an order on the manifold relative to the slideout position around the coach, with streetside front being #1 slide. On ours the bed slide is electric, so the curbside bedroom slide (scissors action) is hydraulic slide #2, and the curbside front is slide #3. The genset slide may be #4 unless it’s electric. Forgive the limitation that I’m unsure, after all that, which side of the manifold is solenoid pair #1 🤔. Each slide has an extend solenoid and a retract solenoid, opposing one another.
The manifold is atop the tank, darn it, and not as clean to get at as illustrated in the owners manual. But yours is a very different model of coach than mine, and the subject arrangement may be quite different.
Joel
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Great stuff guys,
I now know what to look for and how to relieve that pressure. Pictures and written instructions super helpful too Joel! From reading description, it seems to indicate loosening the "nuts". I took that to mean just loosening all 8 nuts (both sides of all 4 solenoids). Do either of you see any problem with just doing that as opposed to trying to decipher which one in particular controls that main slide?
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Pierce,
I guess you could do it that way, personally if you choose that method you may disturb the inner needle and seat arrangements and create another issue. I would identify the 2 opposing solenoids that operate the slide room. Once you relieve the hydraulic pressure in that system, you can t-shoot your issue. Hope this helps, Fred
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A slight correction in my photo, Pierce; the arrow identifying the pump motor should point more to the left. The motor can be seen hiding behind the “S” in the yellow word,“Steps”.
Keep us advised of your repair adventure.
Joel
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More thanks Fred and Joel. Good call Fred not to unseat anything unnecessarily. Crawled underneath today and my setup is totally different. Found the hydraulic distribution block at the curbside rear. Has 8 hoses coming into the top of it with 2 hoses coming out of the bottom that run to a nearby large cylindrical reservoir. 4 solenoids are mounted horizontally sticking out of the side of that distribution block with one large nut on the end of each solenoid that appears it could be turned with a socket. Above those 4 solenoids and hard to see and photograph appears to be one cylindrical block coming out of that main block with a nut which would also accept a large socket. With no service manual my latest challenge is now figuring out exactly what to turn on this device to relieve pressure. A sticker inside a rear bedroom cabinet door lists many of my coach's systems, but unfortunately no mention of slide or slideouts. It lists the Levelers manuafacturer as RVA Jll, but don't know if that's the company that might have also supplied the slide mechanisms? Anyway, that's where I am at the moment.
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Pierce,
Per the Owners Manual the 02 Patriot uses an SMC hydraulic system for both leveling and slide operation. The SMC Leveling System manual in Coach Assist shows the system hydraulic block has 4 solenoids to operate the levelers so I think that is what you are looking at. A wiring diagram in the manual also shows that the slide switch activates the hydraulic pump and the bypass solenoid. Since this solenoid is not shown as part of the leveling solenoid block, it may be in a separate location.
Steve
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Pierce,
I am not familiar with that system. If you cannot locate the remote solenoid pack for the slide, then you may try extending the room just short of binding and jack the room up with a bottle jack and 2 x 4 to raise it 1/2" on the side you are dealing with. Fred
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In Safari (Apple) I searched “hwh hydraulic slide solenoid” and then selected the “images” tab. There were lots of pix, illustrations, and info there that you may find helpful in identifying your solenoid pac. A similar endeavor should work if you use a different search engine. In some hydraulics configurations there I noted the slide ones were mounted directly under the larger hydraulic leveler solenoids, a product I’m personally thankful not to have to deal with.
Attached is one representative image from the aforementioned search result. Also there I was surprised to see images provided by a solo travel blogger I’ve followed for years, from when he worked on his slide or jack system. I don’t remember him relating a slideout repair, but I’m old and forgetful, and his pics are there. He is a retired engineer with many talents, so you might check into his related venture; search “Chaos Leaves Town” or link from his images.
Joel
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Pierce,
From the following thread: ".....my coach has the SMC system. The reservoir is aft of the battery tray as Gerald said. The pump is there also and controls the leveling system and the LR slides."
https://beaveramb.org/forum/index.php/topic,8990.msg61699.html#msg61699
Steve
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One slight emendation, Steve: Gerald said it is forward, not aft, of the batteries.
“ …coach just inboard and forward of the battery bay.” Jerry misquoted him in the following post.
;) Joel
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Hello Steve,
Thanks for jumping in with Fred and Joel. All you guys have been very helpful. You were of course correct Steve...I was being a dumb dumb concerning the first distribution block I saw. With 8 hoses it was in fact the one for the 4 levelers. Closer inspection slightly aft and inboard of that levelers block revealed another block with solenoids mounted a little higher up and harder to see. (pic attached). It has in/out connections leading back to the same cylindrical reservoir as the levelers block and one outlet hose that comes out of it and heads toward the front living room. Has to be it! So this coach does appear to have the shared pump and reservoir configuration for levelers and Living room slideout mentioned.
Next step is to figure out exactly what to turn on this block. So I've got a nut on the end of two solenoids with those solenoids running horizontal to the ground and the nuts facing the front of the coach. Also appears to be a single nut facing downward (toward the ground) on the other end of the block nearest the outlet hose exiting that end of the block that heads toward the living room.
Joel was sharp to notice and pointed out an earlier post error in that all of this does sit aft of the battery compartment, not forward.
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“Has to be it!” Follow that hose up front, Pierce, and be sure. Those two don’t look exactly like ours or the ones in the illustrations. Admittedly they may be an earlier version. Is there more than one slideout? Only two solenoids implies that… one in, one out per slide room.
Joel
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Hey Joel,
Rear bedroom slide is electric, so yes it's just the one living room slide that's got the one single hydraulic cylinder moving it. Believe it's yes also that our setups are totally different. With shared reservoir tank and pump, but separate solenoid block controllers for levelers vs. living room slide, I believe I'm down to simply finding out which SMC Solenoid block controller I have for the living room and securing technical data/instructions on its operation. I did notice on another photo I've attached here markings just above the 2 solenoids. ("E" and "R"). Assuming those stand for Extend and Retract, but again, will pursue finding tech. data on exactly what I have and how to control its hydraulic flow. i.e. to extend would one just loosen the "E" solenoid nut, that nut and the nut on the other end of the block, both "E" and "R" nuts simultaneously with or without nut on the other end, etc.
Unfortunately, didn't see any model numbers stamped on or a sticker on this old unit giving a model number. That would have made it way to easy to find its tech manual. I contacted SMC requesting an email address so that I could send a picture in hopes they would know what I have. So we'll see if any response/assistance comes from that. And maybe someone will happen upon this post that generally knows this solenoid block and how it works to advise what I need to know.
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Believe I discovered my Living room slide solenoid valve pressure cannot be relieved there manually. WHW website had link button off of main page for "Emergency Slide-out retraction". Drilled into "Valve information", then subheading "Identification", to bulletin paper MP849999. Very end of that 2 pager said "Old Style HEX shaped solenoids valves have no manual valve release". They are HEX shaped on my rig. Fred's advice to Jack up the slide slightly to clear those toothed roller gears that you identified by picture Joel might be only way of getting it extended. Plan to confirm this with HWH tech support if possible tomorrow or see what else they might suggest. Took some time trying to chase down valve info. with SMC Corp. since mentioned that they built the valve, with no luck. Appears all the info. concerning the leveling and Slide-outs, including valves, does lie with HWH Corp.
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Pierce
I think what you are looking at is an RVA slide manifold valve
This is a link to an RVA manifold for reference
https://www.rvajack.com/J0914-34-01-RVA-Hydraulic-Slide-Out-Valve-Body-Manifold-Only
https://www.rvajack.com/RVA-Document-Slide-out-recommended-wiring-and-plumbing-diagram
https://www.rvajack.com/RVA-Document-Slide-out-manifold-Operational-Cut-away
The system should run the pump and operate one or the other control valve for extend or retract.
Go to coach assist under brochures for almost all Beaver coaches then pick Safari Motor Coach section 1994 to 2001
In that section you will find a whole section on slide out adjustments for the Magnum chassis coaches
You will also see the RVA slide control valve schematic.
Hope this helps
Eric
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Hello Eric,
Thanks so much Sir. You were dead on that the Living Room slide hydraulic manifold is that one by RAV! So thanks again for nailing that and also for mentioning and directing me to the Coach Assist resource area. I'm new to the Forum so just learning all these resources and Coach Assist area is awesome. RAV tech should be returning a call to assist me hopefully tomorrow with how to relieve pressure.
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Let us know how you make out
Eric
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Thanks Eric,
Spoke with Alan at RVA and then Shaun from Beaver Service in Oregon was also nice enough to return a call. Both confirmed no quick relief from pressure at this RVA manifold other than simply disconnecting the two #4 JIC output lines. Since I'll have to do that, per a suggestion from Alan at RVA, I plan to install an in between valve body that will dump simultaneously these two output lines hydraulic pressure with the quick pull of one knob. (photo attached).
After disconnecting at RVA manifold, I'll lengthen those hoses with two 24" hoses (males to female) down to where I'll mount this new valve, since the RVA valve is up high and hard to reach. Then simply return to the RVA valve with two more 24" hoses (female to female). Using all male #4 JIC 90% adapters at the new valve should make it easy to come down to and back up from new release valve. It'll take a week or so to get all parts in and complete this portion. I'll then tackle manually pushing or jacking the slide out manually to find/repair the problem there. If I ever have another slide problem, it'll be very quick to remove the two "exhaust" port plugs I'll install and pull the knob to relieve pressure to manually move the slide. Will advise again concerning slide-out repair once it's done.