BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Dick Simonis on October 28, 2011, 11:35:26 PM
-
I just wondering what is the most effective way to protect the coach from below freezing temps without doing an actual "winterizing"?
Down here in Southern AZ we will see temp in the low to mid 20's (occasionally dips below 20F but not often). The days, however, always warm up fairly well into the high 40's, mid 50's range.
With my TT, I would just keep an electric heater set to 45-50 in inside and perhaps turn on the propane furnace with the thermostat also set to 45-50 on days when a hard freeze was expected. The difference with the TT is that all the tanks were in a well insulated under-body snuggled up to the floor and the water lines were inside the body, Nothing in the storage were a concern.
Now with the Beaver, all the water lines are in that bay with the holding tanks and I'm not sure how well that area is insulated. I did find a little air handler for the Hurricane in there which I reckon is for heating that area. A question on that air handler. Does the Hurricane need to have the master switch turned on or does a temp sensor talk directly to the brain when it needs heat and operate independently of the inside controls.
Any other thoughts from those in similar climates would be appreciated.
Dick and Pat
-
Dick,
The heat exchanger (air handler) that you referred to in the basement will prevent the holding tanks and plumbing in the basement from freezing, but only if the main switch for the Hurricane is turned on. You should also set the interior thermostats for 45 to 50 degrees if the outside temperature is in the low 20s or colder. But remember that nothing will stay warm unless the master switch for the Hurricane is turned on so that the diesel burner can run.
There is one exception where the heating system will heat with the diesel burner turned off, however that applies only in the case where you have an electric unit like a Comfort Hot that has been added to the Hurricane system. Otherwise the diesel burner has to be turned on unless the Cat engine is running to furnish a heat source.
Gerald
-
For those with Hydro or Aqua Hots you can keep everything from freezing with only the electric turned on, thermostats set to minimub and plugged into a 30 amp source. There are risks doing this. Most models have a single heating element and can only convert about 12 amps to heat for the entire coach. That will probably work down to about 20 degrees. Nobody knows for sure because it depends on everything from wind speed to insulation.
If the element fails, the Hydro Hot or Aqua Hot will freeze and the fix is usually a complete replacement in the neighborhood of $8000. Elements do fail. I've had to replace mine. Same would be true if there is a power outage.
In other words, if you are not close enough to your stored coach to monitor it and the weather, it may be a good idea to fully winterize the entire system with about $20 worth of pink RV antifreeze.
-
Thanks for the replys and it's sort of what I thought.
I'm not too concerned about the Hurricane freezing as it uses 50/50 antifreeze as a mediium but it would be possible for the HW heater to freeze so running the unit at a minimum temp setting on both zones makes a lot of sense.
I think I could also use a space heater in the coach as the hurricane will keep the fluid at 170 or so regardless of the coach interior temp plus the thermostat on the HW heater would also be functioning. At least that's my understanding of how it works.
Neat system.
-
Can the Aquahot be run with the domestic water drained? (yes I understand the water is not completely drained). With the coils in the heated tank, will they should not freeze.
-
Sean,
You can run the AquaHot with the fresh water system drained without a problem. However the truth is that simply draining a system never gets all of the water out. There will usually be some water left in the system even if you drain it and blow the lines out with compressed air. So the safest and most economical way to deal with storing a coach in subfreezing temperatures is to winterize it properly with the pink RV antifreeze.
There are a lot of places that you need to protect like the "J" traps in you gray water drains, icemaker lines, as well as the fresh water heat exchanger in the AquaHot. Freeze damage to any of these can be a real problem, and in the case of the AquaHot, a very expensive one.
Since I do not know were you are located, I can only assume that you are talking about subfreezing temperatures for many hours. Not like the original question from southern Arizona were it can be below freezing for a couple of hours.
Gerald
-
Hey Gerald, thanks for the info... We are in NE AZ and normally the temps barely get to or below freezing and we are on the road every other 2 weeks. So As I did with my previous rig, I drained everything by disconnecting the fresh water supply lines, opened the low drain ports, and pulled the filters. Every two weeks this was going to be with the drill but the freeze warning for us tonight and I am going to run the coach heating system. From what I learned tonight, to position of the coils in the Aquahot are hozitontal so the water can not be fully removed. I fully understand the freeze issue, we lived in AK for 9 years and there I just drained the water and all was well for years. I do have a pump and will isolate the Aquahot and pump in the Pink stuff.
-
AK-
Like others in the club, we've had the coach in temps much below 32 with no problems. As long as your AquaHot is on it should be fine. The bay thermostat should kick that exchanger on around 40-42, so your tanks and pump should also be OK. If you aren't living in the coach and want to be fail safe, go ahead and use the RV antifreeze.
Joel
-
Sean,
If it is just for a short time period (the coach is used every two weeks) with temperatures above 10 degrees, I would not even drain the water system. I would just turn on the AquaHot, and set the interior thermostats at 50 degrees or so and forget it. The AquaHot will keep the coach warm enough to prevent freezing conditions if it has power available.
In the previous post I was referring to a coach that is stored in below freezing temperatures, not one that is used on a regular basis. If you are satisfied that there is no possibility of freeze damage to the interior plumbing, and leave the AQuaHot on, the only possibility of damage to the AquaHot is if the unit malfunctions and will not relight. If that happens there could be damage, so it should be checked often. This possibility lowers to some extent if the unit is also running on 120V A/C. However remember that if the coach is not plugged into shore power, the AquaHot uses 12V battery power and will not operate if the batteries are depleted.
Gerald
-
Thanks Gerald, I really appreciate you and seeing as we are on first name basis already, will have to offer you your choice of soft or adult beverages when we meet in the flesh.
Our situation is a bit complicated, the area I am suppose to park the RV does not have electricity so I bring to the house when it is forecasted to get cold. This week is suppose to get into the teens every night but into the 40-50s during the day. We are also getting snow tonight and later this week. I do have solar panels on top and I guess I could set the gen to auto start... However the big questions have been resolved for now.
-
Sean-
My comments reflected the notion that if AC power or the diesel burner failed (while no one was attending the coach), your AquaHot and other components would be in jeopardy; Gerald also alluded to that possibility. Ambient temps in the teens means it wouldn't take as long to freeze through your systems.
If your coach is by your house and plugged in, it's easy to monitor the power supply and bay temps. If I couldn't be there to check the heating system operation a few times a day, I'd definitely add antifreeze, which is what I meant by fail safe. I certainly wouldn't rely on solar panels or genset where thousands of dollars in repairs are at stake; our Auto Genset Start has not proved all that reliable anyway. Being plugged in also keeps batteries up and helps insure your icemaker solenoid heater foil can protect its valve.
My coach has been parked by the house for 3 years, with deep freezes the first 2 years. I got tired of fretting things and constant trips out to check the hydronic operation during hard, long cold snaps; so last fall (after 26 successful years of motorhome winterizing by blow-out only) I finally took the hint and pumped pink stuff throughout, instead of just the drain traps. It took far less effort and total time than the incessant checking did.
Joel
-
I'm surprised no one has asked about the refridgerator line. If your coach has a fridge with the ice maker, the water line runs outside the coach behind the outside vent. Unless you will be using your coach during the winter, I say the RV Anti-freeze route is the way to go. The winerization process is easy and can be done in a few minutes if you have an air compressor and a gallon or two of the anti-freeze.
-
@ Gil: I did disconnect the fridge line and drained the icemaker. I also pulled the filters.
Joel: a few gallons is cheap. But repeating the process every two weeks is a bit painful.
The rig is at the house, shore line connected and Aquahot running both electric and diesel.
-
Yup, not everyone thinks about the icemaker, Gil. Blowing your lines out may not clear fluid there if you don't cycle the cubemaker while the lines are pressurized; the water tube at the distal end has to be open for air to get through, and that only happens if the cubemaker is at that cycle point that opens the solenoid valve for filling the tray with water. Plus the valve needs to be at the right cycle point to get antifreeze through as well.
Our Dometic has 12v heat tape that kicks on at 40 degrees or so to protect the solenoid, but if your batteries lose voltage, then what. I used to not trust that, and (in trying to be "fail safe") I removed both the incoming and output water lines from the solenoid for drainage (as per mfr. instruction). That was a bit of a pain due to close quarters and having to work around the heat tape without damaging it. Antifreeze was easier.
But I'd do the same thing you are, Sean, if I was regularly using the rig all winter. ;)
Joel
-
I personally have had some Aqua Hot system issues, and I believe that I have all the bugs out now. It took a new coil, flame sensor, and burner controller to resolve my issues, along with a new nozzle and electrode setting. It is reliable to a point, but the technology is old and still includes problematic relays in the burner controller (silver box attached to the burner). The controls are in a hostile environment, between the humidity and heat cycles. If the system fails and freezes, it is a huge expense and major trouble to get repaired.
The generator and autostart system is fairly reliable, but all of this relies on programming and batteries to work. If it were me and I was going to leave the coach without external power and unattended in the cold, I would want some back up system to alert me if the temps went outside of the "safe window".
Here is one option that can cell phone you, there is another choice if a wireless network is available. Maybe some owner has some experience with a remote temp alarm system and can share some experience. Seems like a good subject to take a look at on the forum.
http://www.temperaturealert.com/Temperature-Alarm.aspx?Click=4152&c1=GAW_SE_NW&source=WKD&kw=temperature_phone_alarm&cr5=4182762890&gclid=CKWcuK2qo6wCFRBR7AodDVbBCg
Later Ed
-
I personally have had some Aqua Hot system issues and I believe that I have all the bugs out now. It took a new coil, flame sensor, and burner controller to resolve my issues along with a new nozzle and electrode setting. It is reliable to a point, but the technology is old and still includes problematic relays in the burner controller (silver box attached to the burner) The controls are in a hostile environment between the humidity and heat cycles. If the system fails it is a huge expense and major trouble to get repaired.
The generator and autostart system is fairly reliable but all of this relies on programming and batteries to work. If it were me and I was going to leave the coach without external power and unattended in the cold I would want some back up system to alert me if the temps went outside of the "safe window".
Here is one option that can cell phone you, there is another choice if a wireless network is available. Maybe some owner has some experience with a remote temp alarm system and can share some experience. Seems like a good subject to take a look at on the forum.
http://www.temperaturealert.com/Temperature-Alarm.aspx?Click=4152&c1=GAW_SE_NW&source=WKD&kw=temperature_phone_alarm&cr5=4182762890&gclid=CKWcuK2qo6wCFRBR7AodDVbBCg
Later Ed
-
Question regarding the ice maker.
Right now our fridge is off and it's going down to the mid 20's for the next couple of days. Would simply turning it back on (using propane) and letting the ice maker run keep the line from freezing? I can easily keep the inside of the coach at 50 with a combo of the electric heater and hurricane so tha's not a big concern. Might even leave the HW heater running on AC.
Thanks.
Dick
-
Dick,
The steps that you listed above should give you adequate freeze protection.
Gerald
-
Forgive my lack of understanding on the issue of the icemaker - I haven't dealt with it before. The coach is stored in a heated shed so I don't bother to winterize it.
I have a few questions, if I have the coach outside for a few days and it is below freezing but I have the AquaHot on, set around 50 do I need to have the fridge running or does the line for the icemaker need to be emptied? For example, it was -8C this morning and I had the coach outside overnight as I took it for service early this AM. I had the Aquahot on set at 50 and then last night I read a previous post here so I decided to turn the fridge on. Everything seems OK.
Secondly, when I leave home in January the temperature will most likely be around -15C to -20C. The heat will be on, and the fridge may be on propane, but should the icemaker line be disconnected or blown out?
Finally, I gather, the heat tape that can be plugged in the basement outlet is to protect water lines. There is a heat exchanger in the basement and this morning the basement temperature was at 61F. At what temperature would I use the heat tape and secondly, if it takes 45 watts, should I run the inverter when traveling to ensure there is power at that outlet?
Thanks,
Jeff
-
Blowing your lines out may not clear fluid there if you don't cycle the cubemaker while the lines are pressurized; the water tube at the distal end has to be open for air to get through, and that only happens if the cubemaker is at that cycle point that opens the solenoid valve for filling the tray with water.
Exactly why I disconnect the water line going into the refridgerator. Or at least I use before recently moving to Florida :)
-
There seems to be some questions about how to winterize the ice maker. The fall after we purchased our Beaver, I went to a local RV dealer
that was offering a instructional course on winterizing the coach. His instructions said to disconnect the line from the ice maker Solenoid valve up to the ice maker and let drain. Leave it off until you are going to use the ice maker again. Then remove the 2 wires that are attached to the ice maker solenoid. He then had a short cheater cord that was plugged onto the terminals of the ice maker solenoid, and the other end has a normal 15A male plug on it, which is plugged into the receptacle for the fridge. Remove the filter from the ice maker line and pump antifreeze into the line until it comes out where you disconnect the ice maker line. Remove the cheater cord, and you are done until you are going to use the ice maker. You will need to restore everything to normal first. Hope this helps some of you.
I did not drain the ice maker last spring when returning from the warmer temps until I was home and had to replace the solenoid valve as it would not seal, when tring to use the ice maker. Fridge was on and unit heated while traveling.
-
Harvey,
That's almost exacyly what I've done in the past. I didn't cheat the solenoid and am not sure the rationale for doing so. Leaving the water lines disconnected should eliminate any risks. Even if a small amount of water is retained in the lines, there's room for it to expand and because the line is disconnected, the small ice formation doen't have to fight the pressure of a sealed line. As for the line to the solenoid from the coach's water source, it gets blown our with all other lines and then a small amount of antifreeze is blow through the lines to make sure any water that didn't escape is really antifreeze and not plain water.
-
I found it tricky to work around the well-placed factory heat tape on the solenoid when I removed the nuts holding the in and out lines to it. Replacing the nuts in the spring was even trickier, and I can see where it would be easy to cross thread them (soft metals involved), creating an almost certain leak. I was reluctant anyway to remove the heat tape for better access, because it seems a bit "delicate", and I didn't want to risk damaging it in any way.
Pumping antifreeze all the way up to the icetray, by using a screwdriver to force a cycle as per mfr. instruction, ultimately seemed to me to be an easier option, and more palatable than dealing with stripped threads/leaky fittings the next spring. The solenoid's heat tape became a backup protective device, but is really unecessary with the solenoid full of antifreeze; it is useful though for protecting the solenoid when the fridge is intermittently used during the winter, and antifreeze is less practical.
The option of turning the fridge on during cold snaps is viable, as long as there is no propane or electric failure while you're not watching. I'd think the heat in the rear compartment, generated by the proximity of the burner/electric heater and flue, would keep the tubes and solenoid from freezing, even to quite a low outside thermometer, and in spite of the access door louvers. The solenoid heat tape would protect it regardless, as long as the batteries were up to snuff.
Of course my postulations assume one's coach has 12v heat tape installed on the solenoid, and perhaps not all do.
Joel
-
Just for the record, I blew out the lines and pumped antifreeze into the Aquahot domestic water lines via the Cold water in line until anti freeze came out the hotwater line, then reconnected them to the Aquahot system.
-
I have been following this post, and you have properly winterized your Aquahot, as long as you ran the winterizing coolant through and out of your hot water line your Aquahot will
not freeze.
Orman Claxton
Aquahot factory Authorize
service center
-
Curious, How much fluid does the coil hold? I hope the next version of Aquahot uses a vertical design over the current horizontal. Also, why not use SS in place of the copper, greater strenghth and about equal thermal qualities?
-
Curious, How much fluid does the coil hold? I hope the next version of Aquahot uses a vertical design over the current horizontal. Also, why not use SS in place of the copper, greater strenghth and about equal thermal qualities?
Volume is 50' of 5/16" copper tube.
If i was designing it, or if i froze one I'd use a separate heat exchanger- in boats they sell for about $350. I have repaired a coil myself, so I think I qualify as having a valid opinion on this issue.
-
So that would be about one gallon?I left my slide ruler in my other life