BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Jeremy Parrett on December 30, 2011, 04:37:55 PM
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My Hurricane furnace shuts down after a few minutes operation. I need to bleed air from the fuel line. Can this be done with the unit running or shut down??
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It needs to be running in order to draw fuel in ... keep a towel of some sort handy to catch the burping fuel though.
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when I open the fuel bleed valve the pump slows down but I cannot see where the fuel/air is going to. I have a fuel hose attached to the bleed valve.
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Jeremy,
I use a small bottle to use as a catch can for the fuel when burping. The unit needs to be running to so it engages the fuel pump. If this does not Dix consider cleaning the nozzle. I keep a spare nozzle clean so I always have a replacement.
Good luck!
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OK, I bled the Hurricane with it running. It still shuts off,giving volumes of white smoke that stinks of diesel. It s showing a " flame out run " fault .......there is plenty of fuel . The guide tells me this can be caused by the 'diode' not sensing fuel .
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Jeremy,
Did you check the combustion fan to be certain that it is running? A bad combustion fan will give you the same symptoms.
You should also check the compressor to be certain that you are not loosing pressure. The set screw on the compressor motor shaft for the bell crank can work loose and allow the compressor to stop pumping right after start-up resulting in a flameout, however this usually does not cause excessive smoke.
Gerald
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Hi Gerald and Tom,
Thanks for your suggestions.
I can hear the fuel pump ticking. Ticking slows, when bleed valve is open. Pump is running fine.
Fan is blowing white smoke (diesel mist) from exhaust, so it also is running fine.
I am going to remove and clean the nozzle, when it cools down.
Last night it was 47 degF here in Baja California Sur. With the "Coach heat" switch on, to activate the Hurricane's water pump, the Seaward electric 6 gallon water heater is able to heat the Hurricane's radiators water, with its heat exchanger, to make the system work quite well but not enough to heat the coach when it gets really cold. It kept us at 62 deg F last night.
Gerald, I wonder if there are some Beaver owners who do not know the Seaward 6 gallon water heater can be used to heat the coach !!!
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I for one did not know that how does it circulate? Do you mean engine pre heat or coach heat?
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The Seaward water heater has a heat exchanger in it. This allows the Hurricane furnace (when running) to heat the hot water for showers etc. as well as its own water for the radiators spaced around your coach. When the Hurricane Furnace is switched off, the Seaward water heater heats the water for showers etc. and through its heat exchanger, it heats the Hurricane water too. If you switch "Coach heat" on (dash panel switch) you switch on the Hurricane water circulation pump. As this Hurricane water circulates, it passes through the Seaward water heater heat exchanger.......inside the water heater, gets heated and then continues through the radiators and the engine, if you have the valves open(preheat) . Eh voila !!! Obviously you need to be hooked to 120v ac for the Seaward water heater to work, and its ability to transfer heat to the Hurricane system through its heat exchanger is limited to the water temp the Seaward is set to. The water does not get as hot as when the Hurricane is running, but it is hot enough to take the chill off the interior, and will save you having to run the Hurricane furnace. If you have cooler evenings as we do, we leave the "Coach heat" on during the early evening to get the Hurricane water up to temp. It will take an hour or so to start feeling some heat. We set the main thermostat to "Gas heat".......around 72 deg F.....set the local thermostats in the bed room and bathroom to the same. The whole system works as it would with the Hurricane running, but without switching that hurricane switch on above the dining table.
Hope this is easy to understand.......when the coach heat/hurricane water pump is on you can hear it if you listen closely.
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Gerald,
I took the Hurricane apart this afternoon and replaced the burner nozzle. I had the old one from when Lazydays last serviced it. They had cleaned the nozzle, and gave it to me as a spare. I fired up the Hurricane and opened the bleed valve for 10 mins. Then I let the Hurricane run for 1 hour and it never quit. I think the nozzle must have been slightly blocked ; maybe some algae from the diesel tank. To solve this issue I am going to install a Racor diesel filter with a coalescer bowl. As soon as possible I will get the diesel in the tank "polished" and the tank cleaned. After 12 years I am sure there is a bit of sediment and some algae in there.
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I am glad that you have got the Hurricane burner running. As for cleaning the fuel tank, you may want to reconsider that if you were planning to remove the tank and have it cleaned. To remove the tank on your coach, you have to remove most of the front suspension. In my view point, one clogged nozzle does not justify that much work. If you start getting clogged filters, then some actions may be necessary. However the nozzle could have been clogged by carbon, and not algae, so don't jump the gun and make unnecessary repairs.
Gerald
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Jeramy,
I have cleaned burners in furnaces and my Aqua Hot many times. I use Gumout Carb Cleaner and a brass brush on the electrodes and the combustion chamber. I will replace the nozzle with a new one, reset the gap and burnish the electrodes. Maybe one in 5 times doing that type service I have had a non repeatable combustion firing. The nozzles are machined to produce a spray pattern and atomization that compliments the design of the ignition source and chamber. The fringe of the spray is supposed to pass by the electrodes. If that pattern is not just right it will not reliably start combustion. I would then replace the nozzle and the combustion would work just fine. Your nozzle may have a had a particle in it, a little carbon buildup on the tip, or just a marginal spray pattern to begin with.
If you have a Racor filter before the burner and the bowl is clean I would not worry too much about the fuel being the cause unless this continues to happen with new nozzles.
There are times when the ignition transformer can be at fault and the output voltage is insufficient to give repeatable ignition but most of the time it is related to the nozzle pattern.
Later Ed
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The Seaward water heater has a heat exchanger in it. This allows the Hurricane furnace(when running) to heat the hot water for showers etc. as well as its own water for the radiators spaced around your coach. When the Hurricane Furnace is switched off the Seaward water heater heats the water for showers etc .and through its heat exchanger it heats the Hurricane water too. If you switch "Coach heat" on (dash panel switch) you switch on the Hurricane water circulation pump. As this Hurricane water circulates, it passes through the Seaward water heater heat exchanger.......inside the water heater,gets heated and then continues through the radiators and the engine if you have the valves open. Eh voila !!! Obviously you need to be hooked to 120v ac for the Seaward water heater to work,and its ability to transfer heat to the Hurricane system through its heat exchanger is limited to the water temp the Seaward is set to. The water does not get as hot as when the Hurricane is running but it is hot enough to take the chill off the interior and will save you having to run the Hurricane furnace. If you have cooler evenings as we do we leave the "Coach heat" on during the early evening to get the Hurricane water up to temp. it will take an hour or so to start feeling some heat. We set the main thermostat to"Gas heat".......around 72 deg F.....set the local thermostats in the bed room and bathroom to the same .the whole system works as it would with the Hurricane running but without switching that hurricane switch on above the dining table.
Hope this is easy to understand.......when the coach heat/hurricane water pump is on you can hear it if you listen closely.
What you've described makes a lot of sense and does describe how my Hurricane seems to be set up. However, the switch on my dash is labeled Preheat and I was under the impression that it caused engine heat to be used to heat the coach while driving and could also be used to pre-heat the engine if the Hurricane was running. That's what's described in the owner's manual and what I thought was happening, but the plumbing does seem to match what you describe. Can anyone clarify this?
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Hi Gerald,
Polishing a tank full of diesel involves a fuel transfer pump , a good filter system and three 50 gallon oil drums(clean) . Once the diesel is removed they will flush the tank to get rid of sediment and algea and then replace the "polished" diesel. On my sailboat I get this done every two years. Tank removal is not necessary.
As far as I know there is a paper diesel filter on the Hurricane. Adding a small Racor with a sediment bowl is an inexpensive precaution that will eliminate any future problems .
Changing the Hurricane burner nozzle took 10 minutes........accessing the burner door by r&r the stainless steel panels took an hour . Going to redesign to make access quick and simple.......no more self tapping screws either.
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Hi Joel
on my drivers switch panel(left of drivers seat) there is a "preheat" switch that allows Hurricane heated or Seaward 6 gallon heated water to warm the C12. (page 18 C of the owners manual) . When the C12 is running this will also allow engine heated water to heat the Hurricane systems radiators if you close the switch marked "coach heat".
The switch you need is the one labelled "Coach heat".......it activates the Hurricane's water pump. If you open the Hurricane 's bay door and get someone to close this switch you can hear the pump run.
Page 47 of the Owners manual is a bit confusing but it does say that activating "coach heat" will connect the engine coolant system with the Hurricane system and transfer heat throughout the coach. Then under "water heater" it states' when the generator or a shore line supplies power,the Hurricane will then produce hot water via a 120 ? element in the hot water tank!!!
So,as per my previous diatribe, you can heat the coach's radiators with either the electric water heater or the Hurricane furnace or the C12. To warm the engine as well you can activate the "preheat " switch......it will allow the hot water to circulate through the C12 as well as the radiators.
Sitting here at the La Trinidad RV Ranch near La Ribera,Baja California Sur it is 49 deg F outside . With the coach hooked up to 120 volt power we are using the Seaward electric water heater's heat exchanger to heat the Hurricane's water being circulated throughout the coach by the hurricane water pump ( Coach heat switch) and it is maintaining a steady 72 deg F in the coach !!
Lastly, with the engine running you can heat the coach using engine heated water. Close the two switches labelled "preheat" and "coach heat" and the hot engine will heat the Hurricane radiators . Set your thermostats the same as you would for using the Hurricane furnace,just do not switch the furnace on.
I am quite impressed by this system . I wish the technical writer that Beaver employed had explained it more concisely !!!
if anyone has anything to add or ask me please dont hesitate.......this has been a mind numbing exercise with the owners manual confusing the whole issue with too many incomplete or downright inaccurate statements.
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It's possible that the PT and the Marquis may have a sligtly differant arrangement. Like Joel, I seem to only have the preheat switch on the console that serves both functions. Never heard of the coach heat switch.
As I understand, once this function is selected the recirc pump runs in contiuous operation without regard for any thermostat settings. If so, while handy, will require a pump replacement more often. I believe the manual calls for a new pump every 1500 hours.
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Hi Dick,
The Hurricane water pump runs when the living area thermostat is switched to "Gas heat " and the Hurricane is switched on. When using the electric water heater to heat the coach I have to switch the water pump on using the "coach heat" switch.
Maybe Gerald can shed some light on this. Pumps are cheap enough to replace considering. My Hurricane has only 378 hours on it after 12 years of life . 1500 hours might take some time to reach !!
If closing your "preheat" switch runs the Hurricane water pump then you can use the Seaward electric water heater to heat the Hurricane water and therefore heat the coach; assuming it has a heat exchanger.
I guess Beaver saved $$$$$ by running both functions off a single switch.
My question is" what does the "preheat " switch on my coach actually do?? I know there is a heat exchanger beside the C12 .That is how the engine heats the Hurricane water and visa versa. The 2 valves back there to allow this to happen are manually opened. Maybe there is another pump back there to boost circulation?
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Hi Jeremy--
Thanks for the very clear explanation. The issue seems to be that the Patriot Thunder has only a "preheat" switch and not the coach heat one. When I push the preheat button it definitely does turn on the Hurricane's circulating pump. I had always assumed that the purpose of that was to flow warm liquid through the engine. But you are definitely correct that doing this will also flow liquid through the Seaward tank. I had never thought of the reverse effect of the Seaward heating the flowing liquid. I guess the only downside is that the circulating pump will run continuously regardless of the thermostat settings but, if not done all that often it probably won't add that many hours of pump usage.
Now I'm wondering if the two switches were consolidated into a single one on my MH. Do you know what actually happens when you push the preheat button? Is there a solenoid that opens or closes to send liquid through the engine? I have used the preheat feature to keep the coach warm while traveling, but not often enough to convince myself that it truly is working.
Since we're going to have some cold weather tonight I'm going to push the "preheat" button to see if it works as you describe. I don't intend to turn off the main Hurricane since I like being able to have unlimited hot water for showers. However, if things work the way you describe the circulating liquid should stay warm enough to eliminate the need for the burner to be used for heating (or at least not as much). The operating aquastat in the Hurricane is supposed to trigger the burner at 149F, so the ~120F water from the Seaward won't be sufficient to keep it from running at all, but it shouldn't have to raise the temp of the Hurricane fluid by more than ~60 degrees until it reaches the burner off temp of 185.
I'll know more by tomorrow morning.
Joel
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Hi Joel,
Last night here it was 47 deg F and using the seaward electric heater to heat the Hurricane water we were able to maintain 64 degF in the coach. Warm enough to sleep.
There is a heat exchanger on the passenger side front end of the engine behind the service bay. There is a pump in the engine coolant system which is activated by the "preheat" switch.
The Hurricane system either with the furnace running or by the Seaward electric water heater and Hurricane water pump(Coach heat) circulates hot coolant through this heat exchanger beside the C12. The engine coolant pump (activated by the "preheat" switch) circulates the engine coolant through the same heat exchanger and warms the engine. The two systems use different coolants and so this has to be the way it is set up. When you activate your "preheat" you are switching both pumps on ,thus circulating the engine coolant and the Hurricane coolant.
Now if we could rewrite the manual everyone else could easily see how this versatile system works !!!
"Final answer".!!!!
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Anxious to see your reply tomorrow Joel. While at the Bend Service a few years ago I was going over the coach dash board with Ken Carpenter. When I got to the "engine preheat" switch he said "that does absoutely nothing". I asked why it was there....he wasn't sure.
When I turn the switch on I don't hear anything happening. However, I've never gone to the back of the coach to see if the switch caused something to turn on because I expected if it did turn anything on it would be in the Hurricane compartment.
Good comments from Jeremy. Hope that there is not a big difference between the Thunder and Marq heating systems (Hurricane).
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So here's what we found last night:
1. The preheat switch clearly turns the Hurricane pump on; you can hear it running.
2. After having the switch on for 2 hours we set a thermostat to call for heat without the Hurricane burner being on
3. No heat was detectable at the registers (even though they should have been at least warm)
The only thing I can think of is that if the "preheat" and "coach heat" functions were combined into a single switch, then fluid circulates through the entire system including the engine heat exchanger and the Seaward tank when the switch is on. Since the Seaward only has a ~1500 watt heating element, it might be capable of heating the circulating liquid to a decent temp but not if it has to heat the engine coolant as well. So by combining the functions into a single switch the "coach heat" capability was lost.
This would agree with my owner's manual which says nothing about heating the coach in this mode. As poorly written as the manual is, it at least does mention "preheat". So my assumption is that someone figured out that using the Seaward to heat the coach in this mode would not work. This may be why the so-called Comfort Heat system was created which added an electric heater to the Hurricane. I think Gerald knows something about this add-on.
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Hi Joel,
The radiators will feel very cool. This is normal ,as the effect called 'latent heat tranfer' makes your hands feel cold even though a minute amount of heat is coming from the radiator. I doubt that the engine coolant will effect the system's ability to eventually heat the coach,but it will prolong the warm up period. If you shut the valves at the rear that allow the hot engine coolant to warm the coach system you can improve things . Try running the Hurricane to get things hot and then switch it off and let the Seaward electric water heater carry on from there. last night was again 47 degF here and the electric water heater kept the coach at 64 deg F. Great for sleeping.
What the "preheat" switch does on my coach must be one of three things:
) it opens a solenoid controlled valve set to allow engine coolant to flow through the heat exchanger
2) it starts a pump to circulate the engine coolant through the leat exchanger
3) both of the above. ;)
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Since the use of the Seaward as a coach heater puts additional hours on the pump (and I have ~1,400 hrs already) and I already own two small Vornado heaters, I'm not sure it really matters whether or not this works for me or not. The Vornados are very quiet (a lot more quiet than the Hurricane fans) and do a better job of circulating the air. If I set both in low power (750 watt) mode, they keep the coach warm with outside temps >40F. Since I don't intend to be in places any colder than that, they give me a totally acceptable way to use electricity instead of diesel fuel to keep warm. The only time this matters anyway is when we are parked for a couple of months during the winter. Normally, the Hurricane's fuel usage is inconsequential.
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I'm betting the "coach heat" switch turns on an additonal AC heating element in the Hurricane box. I seem to recall this feature was an option and more than likely it was part of the Marquis package. I'm with Joel on the small electric heaters. I have a hardwired baseboard heater and a portable that keep things toasty down to about 36 outside.
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Hi Dick and Joel,
I totally agree. We have 3 ceramic space heaters that keep us toasty warm down to 32 degF or below. It has been a good exercise to finally discover how the Hurricane system can be used in conjunction with the other systems on our coach.
There is no coach heating element in the Hurricane box. The "coach heat" switch turns on the Hurricane pump which then circulates the Hurricane water through the heat exchanger in the Seaward electric water heater tank ,thus heating it and warming our coach. As this system uses the water pump(hours) in the Hurricane system we will not use it unless the temps get really cold ,when we worry about freezing the basement which space heaters will not warm up.
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Hi Dick and Joel,
I totally agree. We have 3 ceramic space heaters that keep us toasty warm down to 32 degF or below. It has been a good exercise to finally discover how the Hurricane system can be used in conjunction with the other systems on our coach.
There is no coach heating element in the Hurricane box. The "coach heat" switch turns on the Hurricane pump which then circulates the Hurricane water through the heat exchanger in the Seaward electric water heater tank ,thus heating it and warming our coach. As this system uses the water pump(hours) in the Hurricane system we will not use it unless the temps get really cold ,when we worry about freezing the basement which space heaters will not warm up.
I often leave the Hurricane on but set the thermostats so they are below the temp I would like the electric space heaters to keep the coach at. Since the basement thermostat is preset to something like 38F this ensures that the Hurricane would turn on if it was needed either in the basement or the coach. We always like to have the Hurricane on since we are addicted to the infinite hot water it is capable of providing. It doesn't really use all that much fuel; I checked my fuel gauge today and I've used less than ~1/8 of the tank in a month despite having had it on quite a bit during a rather cold snap early in December. Since we're at a CG that charges for electric usage, it doesn't really matter whether I use diesel or electric for heat, as long as I don't have to pull out to go fill the tank.
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Would love to see a schematic of the heating systemic available to see how it actually is supposed to work.
The manual says to only turn on coach heat imguess the engine pre heat should be on too.
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With the system that Jeremy has on a 2000 Marquis, there are two circulation pumps. The switch that is marked "coach heat", only turns on the Hurricane circulation pump to pump fluid through the water heater, the engine coolant to Hurricane heat exchanger, and the heat exchangers inside the coach. The switch marked "preheat" turns on the pump that circulates the engine coolant through the engine coolant to Hurricane fluid heat exchanger. The "preheat" pump is not needed if the engine is running since the engine water pump will serve this purpose.
Under the conditions that Jeremy described, if the "coach heat" switch is on and the water heater is being heated electrically, there will be some heat transfer from the water heater to the Hurricane fluid, so you can receive some heat in the coach with the heat exchanger fans running. As commented above, this is not the most efficient heating method, however it does work, but only on coaches that are set-up like the 2000 Marquis, with a Hurricane heater, electric water heater, and separate pump systems with separate switches.
If the "preheat" and "coach heat" switches are both turned on at the same time, most of the heat that is transferred from the water heater to the Hurricane fluid will be transferred to the engine coolant, so you will receive little to no heat in the coach.
Gerald
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There seams to be some confusion here with the different operating systems in the Hurricane and AquaHot units. About the only similarity is that they both burn diesel.
The AquaHot unit operates like a fuel injection system with a high pressure pump spraying diesel through a nozzle to atomize it as air is blown into the combustion chamber and a high voltage spark across a gap between two electrodes ignites the fuel/air mixture.
The Hurricane functions like a carburetor. Compressed air is blown through a nozzle where it draws diesel into the air stream with the drop in pressure as the air goes through the nozzle. The air/fuel mixture is ignited by a 12V hot wire (no transformer needed) as the mixture flows across it. The fuel pump in a Hurricane is a low pressure pump (less than 4 PSI) and is controlled by a pressure regulator that will only allow the fuel to flow through the nozzle if there is negative pressure. In other words fuel can only flow into the combustion chamber if it is sucked into the air stream at the nozzle.
Also the AquaHot unit has a 120V heating element and the Hurricane does not. However some, but not all coaches that are equipped with a Hurricane system also have a separate water heater that is equipped with a 120V element.
Gerald
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Gerald,
Thanks for that info. Never worked on a Hurricane system and my assumption is that it had a typical oil burner arrangement with a nozzle and electrodes.....live and learn. BTW happy New year to you and Glenda.
Later Ed
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If the "preheat" and "coach heat" switches are both turned on at the same time, most of the heat that is transferred from the water heater to the Hurricane fluid will be transferred to the engine coolant, so you will receive little to no heat in the coach.
Gerald
Gerald--
As you have read in this thread, my Patriot Thunder model in 2000 had only a single switch marked preheat so it probably incorporated both functions. So when I tried to use the Seaward electric heater to heat the coach, I assumed that whatever heat was being transferred to the Hurricane fluid was most likely ending up in the engine coolant. You have now confirmed my assumption. thanks,
Joel
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Gerald,
many thanks for a very concise summary of all my diatribes. One question I havent been able to answer is where does the heat for the basement heating duct come from? Is it from the radiator fan mounted in the coach furniture behind the co pilot seat? If so we can keep the basement warm when operating the Hurricane 's water pump (Coach heat) and heating the water with the Seaward electric water heater.
You have answered my question re "Preheat" on my Marquis switching on a circulating pump in the engine space. Thanks again, Happy New Year , jeremy
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Jeremy,
The heat for the basement on your coach (2000 Marquis) comes from a heat exchanger and fan assembly that is located in the area between the top of your holding tanks and the floor of the coach. It is controlled by a small non-adjustable thermostat that is usually clipped to on of the fresh water lines that run above the holding tanks.
Gerald
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There are two pumps in the hurricane bay on my coach what is the second for?
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Hi Tom,
I have two pumps in my Hurricane Bay as well. Could it be that the other pump( much bigger) is the one that is activated when the Hurricane Furnace is switched on??
This would mean the "coach heat" pump only works when you activate the "coach heat " switch. A supplementary pump for those cooler evenings when you dont need the furnace, thus saving the furnace pump hours!!!!!
Gerald please help !!!
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With the system that Jeremy has on a 2000 Marquis, there are two circulation pumps. The switch that is marked "coach heat", only turns on the Hurricane circulation pump to pump fluid through the water heater, the engine coolant to Hurricane heat exchanger, and the heat exchangers inside the coach. The switch marked "preheat" turns on the pump that circulates the engine coolant through the engine coolant to Hurricane fluid heat exchanger. The "preheat" pump is not needed if the engine is running since the engine water pump will serve this purpose.
This should answer your question. If not let me know.
Gerald
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Hi Gerald,
I am to assume the larger pump in the Hurricane bay is the one that is activated by the "preheat" switch ?
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Ok, my pump does not come on when I engage the coach heat switch now what? The hurricane works great when engaged for heat is there.a fuse or relay on this switch?
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Tom,
Check the wiring to see if you have 12 volts at the pump ;if yes, then the pump is bad. Apparently these pumps have a 1500 hour life.
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The waternpump works when the heater is on just fine just not on coach heat. I have replaced the circuit board last year so there should be no issues there.
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Tom,
the switch could be faulty.......check to see if this is as simple a problem as the spade connectors either falling off or not being crimped tight enough. I have had a few connectors that were loose.
My switch panel has an access board beside the pilot seat;a bit awkward to get off but doable.
I am looking for fuses for the Hurricane system pumps....no luck yet except for the ones on the circuit board inside the box.