BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Ken Sair on January 31, 2012, 01:58:55 AM
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It's time to change the coolant in my 07 Contessa with a C9. I have the original green coolant from Monaco at production. Now, we are in Mesa AZ and leave SU for Gulf Shores AL and ultimately Tampa and Orlando FL. We are tarveling along I-10 EB the entire trip.
If possible, I would like some recommendations on this service. If you can please provide places with great service and good prices. Also, any place I should avoid.
Thanks, Ken 2007 Beaver Contessa
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Hi Ken,
I just left Thompson CAT in Spanish Fort, Alabama on the bay near Mobile. They did a valve lash on my coach. In the past they have also replaced a turbo and an injector. Not necessarily the cheapest but they don't mind working on motorhomes and are very friendly. They also permit overnighting in their parking lot. If that isn't your thing, I would recommend Maeher State Park off Battleship Parkway and right on the bay which is only about 6 miles from Thompson.
Good luck,
Tim
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You also could stop in Lake City FL off I75 at http://www.ringpower.com/ as they have a small (compared to Tampa) location if you want a CAT RV friendly dealer in FL
You can also choose fromhttp://www.catrvclub.org/cat_rv_centers.htm a CAT RV Center and if you belong to the CAT RV Club get a discount.
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Tim,
I live about 25 miles from the Spanish Fort Thompson Dealership. If you do not mind, let me know if you were happy with the quality of the work and what they charged for the valve lash adjustment there. I have been over to pick up filters and a few parts but they were mostly working on heavy equipment whenever I checked out the shop so I had been reluctant to bring the coach in. I was thinking of going to the Cat dealership near Bend on my next trip west for the valve lash given they have done a bunch of these coaches before . Your insight may get me over the hurdle to deal locally...
You can e mail me if you prefer e.buker@gulftel.com
Later Ed
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Here is what I found out today after a few phone calls. Drain coolant, flush 2-3 times and then re-fill with CAT ELC. Wagner CAT in El Paso TX, $700, Holt CAT in Sonora TX $650 and Holt CAT in San Antonio $650. All were about $16 for a gallon of ELC and fours labor, plus tax. YIKES! I'm in shock. That seems really high to me.
Someone somewhere must be more reasonably priced than this. I am going to check Freightliner etc. My coolant has lasted 5 years so I am not opposed to just a drain and re-fill with regular coolant.
Gerald, any ideas?
Ken Sair 2007 Contessa
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You might give A call to Ironhorse Rv in San Antonio,tx. They work on all type of MH's {not a Cat dealer} but do excellent work. They are off off Loop 1604 The Anderson loop and that would be off I-10 East. They also have places to camp with full hookups [3] Very courteous and fast.
Frank
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Frank I was their at Iron Hores to have them check the under side of the rear road side slide and they said that every thing was ok and when I got home about 2 weeks later i still had the same problem that i wanted them to fix I end up having to repair it my self .
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Ken,
It is the four hours labor that brings the price up and it does take that long. Between the drain time, the fill time, running it to bring the temp up and circulate the fluid each time, it ends up being time consuming. A couple of things to note. Be sure they have the dash heater temp control fully on during the procedure. Becuase you keep dilluting the current antifreeze with water and you cannot drain it all out, your first two gallons af ELC should be non dillute and then the rest can be the 50/50 premix. Some shops only have 50/50 premix ELC on hand and just go ahead with that. You may want to check and assure they have both mixes and use them. It is painful price wise but then you do not have to deal with it for a long time and it also eliminates dealing with coolant conditioner and cartridges. The ELC actually reduces the level of wall deposits in the water jacket which probably maintains better heat transfer over time.
Later Ed
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Thanks Ed and Frank. I have called a few Freightliner places along I-10. Price a little better although all are estimates. Freightliner open 7 days a week so they may be more convenient for our travel plans. I will give Ironhorse a call. another BAC member also recommends them.
Ken 2007 Contessa
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Another question. I just had a coolant SOS test. My PH was a little low. Is that the SCA additive? Freezepoint and nitrites were OK.
Ken 2007 Contessa
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Ken,
It is the four hours labor that brings the price up and it does take that long. Between the drain time, the fill time, running it to bring the temp up and circulate the fluid each time, it ends up being time consuming. A couple of things to note. Be sure they have the dash heater temp control fully on during the procedure. Becuase you keep dilluting the current antifreeze with water and you cannot drain it all out, your first two gallons af ELC should be non dillute and then the rest can be the 50/50 premix. Some shops only have 50/50 premix ELC on hand and just go ahead with that. You may want to check and assure they have both mixes and use them. It is painful price wise but then you do not have to deal with it for a long time and it also eliminates dealing with coolant conditioner and cartridges. The ELC actually reduces the level of wall deposits in the water jacket which probably maintains better heat transfer over time.
Later Ed
I'm curious Ed how you get all but 2 gallons out of your cooling system, in order to just add 2 gallons of concentrate and the rest pre-mix? Or maybe the question is better worded, how you you know how much water is left in the system after you drain the final flush?
Our coaches, Ken Sairs and mine are both 07 Contessas which Beaver says hold 50-55 quarts of coolant on initial fill. Lets assume the actual number is in the middle and we hold 13 gallons of coolant. I've always held to the belief that if I know what the coolant capacity is, then after the final flush, knowing that the water remaining is suitable for continued use, put in the correct number of gallons of concentrate, (in this case 6.5) and then top off with water. This way I am assured of exactly the mix I wanted. If I start filling with 50/50 and can only get 8 gallons back in, 2 concentrate and 6 pre-mix, I'm at a dilute mixture right out of the box and have no easy way to correct it. In round numbers in my head I'm starting with my fresh anti-freeze at a 40% solution instead of 50%. Am I missing something? I've done many flush and fills in my life but never been able to accurately calculate the retain in heaters, AquaHots, engine blocks, radiators etc.
Ken
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One more side note question and then I think I'm done. One vendor, Ironhorse in San Antonio uses the Fleetguard ELC. Is there any major performance difference between this ELC and the CAT ELC?
Thanks
Ken Sair 2007 Contessa
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Ken,
On my first drain into a large container I measured what came out of the drain valve using a gallon jug, Given the capacity of the system, I calculated just over two gallons remained that did not drain. I actually flushed three times and used distilled water for the last flush given several gallons would remain. What was finally left in the system was a 2 gallon mix of mostly distiilled water, a small amount of city water, and a small amount of dilute ethylene glycol. I started with two gallons of concentrate ELC (I used Cat) and then filled with 50/50 mix. My Cat dealer did not stock any concentrate so I had to order it before I did the job. That is what prompted my note. If I had brought my coach into the dealer they would have flushed with water, perhaps a cleaner, and just put in 50/50 premix and called it a day. Now I'm not convinced that would have made a big difference given there is a range of acceptable concentrations and I'm living near Gulf Shores AL and we are not exactly cold here. Still I would rather have it right....
Your method of using only concentrate is just fine if your dealer has it. Given my local dealer just had 50/50 I planned to use what I could of that and ordered 3 gallons of concentrate to have on hand. I'm a little parenoid about using Cat ELC given they did the testing and know the material compatibility that is requred for thier engines. As long as Fleetguard has Cat EC-1 approval listed then that would ease my mind.
One other item. The Cat procedure for ELC change over would have you run a cleaner concentrate through the system that you are supposed to flush out. It would not be very easy to effectively flush that cleaner out given the residuals left in our system. The antifreeze that I drained out was clean and I only had 38K miles on the coach at that time, with a prior standard antifreeze change at 28K, Given that I elected not to use the cleaner. Hope his helps.
Later Ed
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Ken,
One last thing, I also turned on my engine preheat maybe a minute or so during each flush to clear that loop of standard Antifreeze. Not sure if you have that loop but something else to remember if you do.
later Ed
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Thanks Ed. If you measured it then we know you got the right amount. It seems like with so many different places to hide that you'd never get that much to drain.
Happy trails,
Ken
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Ken,
The important thing to look for in any extended life coolant that you use in your coach is the Caterpillar EC-1 specification. Any coolant that meets that specification will give satisfactory service. The label of the container will list the specifications that the product meets.
Gerald
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Ken,
My drain is at the bottom of the radiator at a point that was lower than the block and I had the coach parked at a slight slope with the front up. It seemed to drain very well based on what the manual indicated was the capacity. When you think about it the block and the radiator has the vast majority of the capacity and what heads to the front of the coach is small diameter lines by comparison. The front heater core is quite high compared to the drain and certainly drained down with some residual anti freeze left in the lines. The conditioner cartridge and plumbing I removed based on Gerald's input to eliminate a failure source. Seemed to all go pretty well...
Later Ed
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Finally arrived at a decision. Going with CAT ELC (bought at Empire CAT in Mesa for $12.50 gal - not $16 as quoted). Work being done at Freightliner El Paso. 2-3 hours at $125 per hour. They were very helpful. Told me if I showed up and wanted CAT ELC they would drive to CAT dealer and get it, 90 minutes round trip 'if' someone was available. That little hint save me about $40 in product and probably sitting around for 2 hours with my bride giving me the 'look'.
Thanks for all your help
Ken Sair 2007 Contessa
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Sounds like you've got a good system going. Air locks in heaters mounted high up are very common. Even engines get them when all the coolant is drained. The Lehman diesel in my boat has a petcock on the top of the manifold to bleed the air out. It will alway air lock if the petcock isn't opened and bled properly. Some cars were prone to that also and we always made sure the heater worked properly before we sent a car back out after a flush and fill.
I'm disappointed that some Cat dealers would only stock pre-mix. Concentrate has always seemed like a much easier way to go for me.
Ken
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I think the issue is that today most all the Cat engines/equipment in the field has ELC already in it either new or converted. Monaco seemed uniquely slow to change over, not sure they ever did.
Basically without knowing anything about the cooling system capacity and what portion would drain, the 50/50 mix always works if you already had ELC in it. They also do not have to worry about having a stock of distilled water on hand. The Cat parts guy indicated that they literally sell none of the concentrate and it had a shelf life so they did not stock it. That still seemed strange to me given any ELC conversion work that came in should have had some ELC concentrate in the mix.
later Ed
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Local radiator shop here charged me under $200 including labor and used Texaco ELC and said it was produced by the same company that makes CAT ELC.
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Now it's not making sense at all. Cat says in their literature that 50/50 is the optimum mixture and 60/40 provides better protection. http://parts.cat.com/cda/files/3055800/7/PEHJ0067-02.pdf If Cat Dealers are flushing and filling with only 50/50 they aren't ever getting even 50/50 finished product, because of retain. If they are just "changing coolant" and putting 50/50 back in, then they are accepting whatever condition the retain is in as good coolant still, after the 6 year/600,000 mile change interval has been reached. In your motorhome, that's 2 gallons of old coolant along with the new. That seems wrong.
Maybe I'm being to picky with concentrations, but I can't help but think they write the specs for a reason.
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Local radiator shop here charged me under $200 including labor and used Texaco ELC and said it was produced by the same company that makes CAT ELC.
WOW, seems like an awfully good price. Either the Texeco coolant is much less $$ than Cat or the labor rate is very low. I had figured that ELC for mine would run ~160.00 just for the coolant. (56 qts)
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The owner has been a friend for many years from his grandfather on and he runs a low overhead operation. He did not charge.
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2 bucks,
I am certainly not referring to all Cat dealers nor am I trying to criticize them in any way. For the most part they are a good outfit. I was thinking of having them do the ELC conversion and I asked how they would do it. I was told by the service manger that they would drain, use a "cleaner" additive to flush, drain again, and fill with 50/50 ELC. Maybe this being a very southern dealer they do not worry about exactly getting to 50/50 dillution rate and this falls in the catagory of good enough. This is probably not an issue in front engine trucks or heavy equipment which is most of their work. They probably drain very well.
The parts department definately did not stock ELC concentrate, I had to order that for my own use which came in on the parts truck in a couple of days.
I think if you already have ELC and do a standard drain and several older gallons are retained that is probably just fine. You are repleneshing the chemical components to new in 90% of the solution and the rest gets dilluted into the mix. This coolant is very stable and has a very long use life that most of us will never have to worry about. Like with any auto transmission oil change, you are working with dillution and a partial fluid repelenishment as a routine.
I think the bottom line is it is probably wise to know how the work will be done to your coach for things that are not so routine, and it should pass your own "muster test" before you give them the green light. The Meritor disk brake lube procedure is another procedure that I would want to know how the work would be done and what grease will be used. Just my line of thinking....hate surprises.
Later Ed
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Had the coolant drained, radiator flushed with cleaner and refilled with CAT ELC today. The work was done at Freightliner in El Paso TX. They were truly great to us. Half their mechanics called in sick (the day after the superbowl-suspicious!!) and initially said the earliest they could get to me was Tuesday. I explained this was maintenance work and not a mechanical failure so they thought it could be quick. Changed their mind and We were in the bay within 30 minutes and the job took exactly 3 hours minus their lunch break.
9 gallons of distilled water, $9.13. 12 gallons CAT ELC, $164.36 (used 9.5 gallons on re-fill). Labor, 2 hours at $115 per hour (RV rate is $124) plus the ever present and mysterious shop supplies charge and $1 sales tax. Total came to $418 and change. Much less than the CAT estimates of between $650 and $700.
Ken Sair 2007 Contessa