BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Joel Weiss on March 11, 2012, 03:22:29 PM
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Gerald--
I hate to ask a dumb question but I do not know how to get to the nozzle to clean it. None of the documentation I have explains that; it shows the nozzle after it has been removed. The clearances around my Hurricane box are extremely tight.
My current problem with the system is that it will work fine for an hour or two of hard usage (~40 degree outside temp) then it starts throwing flame outs which increase in frequency until the system becomes unusable. If you shut it off for a few hours it will seem to work fine and you can repeat the cycle.
Joel
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Ours is accessable under the front window panel, turn the set screw and pull the nozzle out.
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Joel,
Cleaning the nozzle is fairly easy on a Patriot, however it is a little more involved on a Marquis. The difference is that is that the Stainless Steel panels have to be removed on the Marquis before you can see the Hurricane unit.
The first thing to do in cleaning the nozzle is to remove the 4 screws that hold the burner area cover plate (containing the burner sight glass) on the end of the unit. Then you will see the fuel block with 2 hoses running to it (one for fuel and one for pressurized air). Remove the hoses and unplug the wires, then loosen the wing screw, and the fuel block will slide out of the burner tube. The nozzle is screwed into the fuel block and will be visible when the fuel block is removed. A complete breakdown of the unit is on our website at: http://beaveramb.org/PDF/PDF%20Manuals/Hurricane%20Owners%20Manual/Hurricane_manual_R4.pdf
There is also a YouTube video on line that explains how to service the burner chamber at: http://itrheat.com/products/hurricane-heating-systems/support/training-videos/
Your problem may not be caused by a dirty nozzle, however that is a good place to start in troubleshooting. You may also have air in the fuel from a defective nozzle "O"ring or improperly sealed hose connection hose connection. There is also a possibility of low fuel delivery rate from a weak fuel pump. Most of these problems can be diagnosed by bleeding the fuel system and watching for fuel flow and air volume in the fuel, or listening to the burner as it is running. Air in the fuel, especially from a nozzle "O"ring will cause a popping as the flame burns.
Gerald
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Gerald:
Thanks for the info; I had the owner's manual but the "front view" picture in 2-1 lacks many of the labels (they got blanked out) so I didn't realize that the was burner assembly. In Section 6.4 the nozzle is shown having been removed from the assembly. The connection I wasn't making was between those two pictures.
I know where the bleed valve is located (on the top of the unit). I assume that the fuel being bled goes down a tube and ends up underneath the coach where I can catch it in a container. Is this correct? With respect to bleeding the fuel line, the manual says to turn the valve one turn "while the system is running." I gather there is no harm in firing it up and then opening the valve or am I supposed to put it into some sort of servicing mode?
Regardless of what the specific issue is, it's probably worth my going by Vancouver WA since parts are going to be needed one way or another. We've had enough intermittents this winter that I'd like to make sure everything works well for next season.
Joel
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Joel,
You bleed the air from the fuel system with the Hurricane fuel pump running. This is easiest to do when the system burner is on. You can also open the bleeder and turn on the system. The fuel pump will come on to try to ignite the burner, so you can bleed the system then, however the pump will only run until the system sets a fault code if the burner does not ignite. This method is used to bleed the system after a repair that has introduced large amounts of air into the system like fuel pump or filter replacement.
Some, but not all coaches have a hose that is attached to the bleeder valve and terminates below the Hurricane compartment. On these coaches it is easy to catch the fuel that is bleed from the system by placing a container below the end of the hose.
There are some Hurricanes that simply drain the fuel on top of the unit when the bleeder is opened. On these coaches I would strongly suggest that a hose should be added to drain the exhausted fuel below the compartment instead of draining into the compartment.
Gerald
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Hi Joel,
Gerald is correct in his description of this unit. My Hurricane suffered from exactly the same problem as you describe. After removing the access panel to the compartment, I removed the square stainless steel panel on the Hurricane burner unit. The flame sensor (the only electrical wire that goes to the burner holder) needs to be removed. Then you can loosen the screw that holds the burner in place and slide it out. I did not remove any fuel lines. I unscrewed the burner nozzle. Dissembling the nozzle to clean it is easy; just be careful not to loose the tiny parts. Its probably got a beard of unburnt fuel on the outlet. Carb cleaner works well. Reassemble the nozzle, install it and connect the flame sensor: replace the stainless steel panel, and then start the Hurricane. Open the bleed valve fully.......mine has a return line to the fuel tank.......I bled it for 5 minutes.....the furnace ran during this process.......the fuel pump will run faster than normal to compensate ......when you close the valve the pump speed will audibly slow down to normal and the furnace will keep running. Mine has now run 5 months without stopping !!
I treat the diesel with Biobor algaecide . One day I will install a marine diesel filter to replace the small cartridge filter the Hurricane has.
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Thanks for all the detailed advice. I'm going to try to clean the nozzle later this week when I have a free day. Between Jeremy and Gerald I now have enough knowledge to approach this with reasonable confidence.
Joel
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Joel,
Just remember to switch the Hurricane off on the outer panel; switch off the thermostat and the remote switch. Once you have cleaned the nozzle, you will see how simple it is to do. Make sure the O seal on the nozzle is OK.......it is probably fine.
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Thanks to everyone for their assistance. The job turned out to be even easier than you said (which was a pleasant surprise). The nozzle did, indeed, have a "beard" of unburnt fuel on the outside. I disassembled the nozzle, sprayed everything with carb and choke cleaner, re-installed, bled the fuel line (although I hadnt' disconnected anything) and now we've been operating for 20 minutes without an issue. Since that is a lot longer than it had been able to operate I am hopeful that the problem has been resolved.
Joel
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Joel,
Congratulations. Ours, touch wood, has now run for 5 months without hesitation.
I would highly recommend using Biobor JF to kill any algae in the diesel tank.
I am going to install a Racor fuel filter/seperator in the Hurricane fuel line.
Last time the Hurricane failed, in December 2010, Lazydays in Florida serviced it. All it needed was the nozzle cleaning. The bill was $150.
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I still plan on stopping by the ITR factory in Vancouver WA when we pass by later this summer. We have ~1,500 hours on our system (not all that much considering it is 12 yrs old), and I would like to get ITR's recommendation as to what might be worth replacing. We have, I believe, the oldest version of the control board and I am interested in understanding the benefits of the more recent versions which, I believe, use photodiodes instead of the flame sensor. Since I appeared to have experienced problems with my operating aquastat earlier this year I may let them replace it and a few other "wear items" as precautionary repairs. We're thinking of going to Alaska in 2013 and I would like the system to be working well for that trip since heat will be important! ;D
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Joel...If you're thinking of going to Alaska in 2013 you probably will never use your heater. If you go between June 1 and September 1 you won't need heat. We've been to Alaska 3 times, all driven, and had never had to use the heater. However, getting the nozzle cleaned or a tune-up kit done would help the warmth in other months. Safe travels. Take your time and enjoy the Alaskan summers.
Mandy
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Joel...If you're thinking of going to Alaska in 2013 you probably will never use your heater. If you go between June 1 and September 1 you won't need heat. We've been to Alaska 3 times, all driven, and had never had to use the heater. However, getting the nozzle cleaned or a tune-up kit done would help the warmth in other months. Safe travels. Take your time and enjoy the Alaskan summers.
Mandy
Mandy:
Thanks for the advice; I made my "heat" comment based on the fact that we've sometimes needed heat in the summer while touring MT and WY. My brain had assumed that similar issues would exist further north. ;)
Joel
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Ruling out the need for heat during the Alaska summer, particularly in the coastal areas, might be folly. Each year is different. Being wet and also cold can be quite uncomfortable. Having a dry, warm place can be a real treat.
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We always leave our Hurricane set for both heat and hot water. There are plenty of nights even in the summer when the heat kicking on in the early morning hours has been quite nice; it all depends where you are.
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Recently our Hurricane is doing the flame-out after running for 30 -40 mins perfectly. I'd like to pull and clean the nozzle as suggested in this thread.
I was unclear about if there is a fuel filter somewhere and where it would be located. Is it in the nozzle itself or is there an external filter somewhere? Also - is there an air filter to be checked as well?
Thanks
Jim
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Jim,
The fuel filter should be visible from the outside. The air filter is inside the unit. You can go IFR website to look at the owners manual as well as the service manual.
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Jim,
The fuel filter for your Hurricane is located on the exterior of the back wall of the Hurricane compartment. It is accessible from under the coach. A replacement filter can be obtained at any auto parts store.
The air filter is inside the Hurricane case on the left side. It is an inline fuel filter that was used in the hose for the compressor intake to filter the air for the compressor. This filter rarely develops a restriction that compromises normal operation, but if it does a replacement can be obtained at the local auto parts house.
Gerald
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I will search for that filter once the rain stops... (although they say when the rain stops here, the snow starts) Glad to hear it is accessible from underneath and readily available. With diesel engines the, filter is where I always start and it is the culprit 90% of the time. I expect the same may be true for my heater.
Thank you for the info.
Jim
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There is another tiny fuel filter inside the nozzle that I didn't know anything about until I had my Hurricane serviced at ITR this spring. After you have the nozzle removed open it up and tap the shaft on the ground. A half-inch long cylindrical filter should fall out. I don't know where you would get this filter except through ITR.
As for flame-outs, I have found removing the nozzle and cleaning it with carburetor cleaner to be the surest fix. You may see a "beard" of fuel on the outside of the nozzle which indicates that not all the fuel is being properly vaporized and burned. Before you clean the nozzle remove the O-rings, otherwise the cleaner will cause them to stretch (as I learned).
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Jim,
On occasion I have to bled the system and it corrected the burps without doing anything else.
Don't know why it just seemed to stop the backfiring etc.
Worth a try.
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Tom,
The correction for needing to bleed the Hurricane fuel system on occasion is to install a fuel return line. To install a return line, you run a hose from the bleeder valve to the fuel tank return line. Then install a small orifice, about a 64th of an inch in the hose at the bleeder valve, and leave the bleeder valve open.
There will be a very small, but continuous flow of fuel from the Hurricane, back to the tank. This continuous fuel flow will keep the fuel cooler and return any air that the Hurricane fuel system may develop back to the tank.
Gerald
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Gerald,
Thanks,for,the suggestion. I will look into doing that later this fall when it hopefully cools off.
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Quick update on my Flame Out. I spoke with ITR and we did some fast tests. Here is what I learned which may be helpful to others with a Hurricane.
First, if you remove to bottom screw on the "control box" and remove the cover, you will find the PC boards and logic for the Hurricane. There is a jumper inside that will put the Hurricane into "bypass" mode. I did not get a complete description of what exactly is bypassed, but it was the technicians belief that the optical flame sensor and perhaps the overheat sensor are ignored.
So, with the unit in bypass mode, NO flame outs. There is a flickering of the LED that is reporting fault. In my case it was the RUN FLAME OUT LED. This would suggest that the nozzle is good, the fuel pump and fuel filter is good, etc. and that the Optical Sensor is bad. I think that is probably supportive of the way the Run Flame Out occurs after running well for some time. I believe the sensor is heating up and failing once it's hot.
The tech asked me to try a few things with the sensor, (none of which worked) and call him back before ordering the part. Too bad ITR was closed before I could reach him Friday afternoon. Anyway, I took it on my own to try to jump out the Optical Sensor, but that results in a Ignition Flame out failure, so apparently there is a certain resistance necessary to make the circuit function properly. I'll try to find out what that is and test with a few resistors before ordering the part to be sure.
Anyway, I thought it was important to share this "bypass" mode as a good fast way to determine if you have a fuel or electrical issue.
Will post my final findings once this has been resolved.
J
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Jim:
That's useful data to know. Kevin at ITR is good about suggesting easy tests you can use to diagnose your problems. Just be aware that the bypass mode is only for testing as you have done. The owner's manual has strong cautions about not using it for operational purposes. I'm not sure how many other safety cutoffs are bypassed in this mode.
Joel
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Gerald I am having a similar issue and would like the manual you mentioned, but doesn't seem to exist any longer, can you assist?
http://beaveramb.org/PDF/PDF%20Manuals/Hurricane%20Owners%20Manual/Hurricane_manual_R4.pdf
Also mine is a little different, when mine starts to pop, If I immediately start to bleed the system the it returns to normal operation for a certain period of time, then will start popping again. Could I have the same issue or something different as I describe it.
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Gerald I am having a similar issue and would like the manual you mentioned, but doesn't seem to exist any longer, can you assist?
http://beaveramb.org/PDF/PDF%20Manuals/Hurricane%20Owners%20Manual/Hurricane_manual_R4.pdf
Also mine is a little different, when mine starts to pop, If I immediately start to bleed the system the it returns to normal operation for a certain period of time, then will start popping again. Could I have the same issue or something different as I describe it.
If you go to this link you should be able to download the same manual. https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=502F3E54066E9137!16859&authkey=!APuz-cczaQP4qxI&ithint=file%2cpdf (https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=502F3E54066E9137!16859&authkey=!APuz-cczaQP4qxI&ithint=file%2cpdf)
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Hi Guys,
One more technician warning, Please DONOT leave the Hurricane in the By-Pass Mode. It circumvents all safety systems that are engineered into it. It is a real temptation but can't emphasize how dangerous it is.
When I bought my coach, I found receipts for over a $1000 dollars from 3 different repair shops trying to repair a "Flame Out" on the Hurricane System. As it turned out I inherited the condition. Further investigation revealed that the original fuel filter that Gerald is referring to has 5/16 fuel lines going to it. Unknown had installed a 1/4 inline fuel filter and tightened it. However it was just loose enough to suck air into the fuel pump and cause the flame out. Regards and Happy New Year! Fred
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Speaking of Hurricane fuel filters, the little plastic one that Beaver installed with it was difficult to access and messy to replace. I replaced it with a "spin-on" cartridge-style filter designed for home heating systems. Much larger filter and much easier to replace.
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Corey,
Joel posted a good link to a Hurricane manual. Thank You Joel.
As for what is the problem with your system, there are several possibilities, and only a through diagnosis can determine what it is. The biggest problem with Hurricane heaters in Beaver coaches is untrained/incompetent RV repair shops who through parts at them with the hope of fixing them. The vast majority of "RV Repair Shops" know little to nothing about the Hurricane system because it is primarily used in the Marine Industry, and not in RVs. The Hurricane was used in Beavers and Country Coaches in the mid to late nineties with the 2000 model being the last Beaver to use it.
Gerald
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Corey,
Joel posted a good link to a Hurricane manual. Thank You Joel.
As for what is the problem with your system, there are several possibilities, and only a through diagnosis can determine what it is. The biggest problem with Hurricane heaters in Beaver coaches is untrained/incompetent RV repair shops who through parts at them with the hope of fixing them. The vast majority of "RV Repair Shops" know little to nothing about the Hurricane system because it is primarily used in the Marine Industry, and not in RVs. The Hurricane was used in Beavers and Country Coaches in the mid to late nineties with the 2000 model being the last Beaver to use it.
Gerald
After wasting too much money, as Gerald says, on incompetent help, last year we chose to have the entire system removed and shipped to ITR for repair. Kevin Lambert had it serviced and working well in 2 days. We ran up a bit of a shipping charge, but mostly because we wanted it shipped quickly. ITR's charges to almost completely rebuild the unit were quite fair IMO. Other people might want to consider doing this rather than let people much around with your system. Ours now works better than it has in years.