BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Les Marzec on April 03, 2012, 02:28:38 AM
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I just had an interesting thing happen. I just got back from from a winter road trip and have my coach next to my house. Been there for a few day and plugged into a 20 amp circuit. I have done this before to keep the batteries charged. Never been a problem. I turn off the coach power when I do this.
Today I noticed that the garage light did not come on, so I checked the circuit breakers and all was fine. Checked the GFI plugs and found one that had popped. When I reset it, the lights went out within a second. I did it one more time and heard the Transfer Switch in the coach fire and the GFI popped.
I checked the Aladdin and it shows only about a 2 to 4 amp draw when not plugged into shore power. I have a Esco transfer switch. Have not been able to talk to them yet, but has anybody experienced this situation?
Thanks for your help.
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Not all GFCIs are created equal, Les. The problem is likely not the coach, but rather the GFCI outlet. Some models are susceptible to momentary micro surges of power such as might occur when a transfer switch kicks in on the circuit, even though the current draw is not excessive.
I think Ed Buker, a regular here on the Forum, can steer you toward a quality replacement, similar to this one he recommended once from Home Depot:
Leviton 20-Amp Weather-Resistant GFCI
Model # R62-W7899-TKW
Joel
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Joel
That thought did cross my mind. All of the GFI in the shop are only 4 years old so I kind of ignored that possibility. I have not had trouble before with the GFIs.
I believe that these came from Home Depot, but I will check it out in AM and see about replacing it.
Thanks for the tip.
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We have found that if you use an adaptor for a 50 amp plug to 30 or 20 amp service equipted with a GFI the neutral leg of the 50 amp will cause the GFI to trip. You need to plug into a non GFI protected circut.
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I am not fond of GFCIs.
My grandparents house had hot and neutral wires strung on insulators in the attic. When my uncle lived there as a boy he "invented" a work bench light that would slide the length of the bench. It was suspended from two bare wires on pulleys. Attached to the pulleys were the wires that fed 110 to fixture.
In my parents house they insulated the two wires and wrapped them in another layer of insulation. All the outlets had two holes. Things we plugged in started showing up with three prongs, so we had to buy adapters if we didn't want Dad to cut off the useless round one "that was only for ground".
When I was old enough to get my own new house all the outlets had three holes and most of the appliances had three prongs. Oddly, vacuum cleaners seem to still have only two prongs. So I guess BJ is either not very well grounded or in a great deal of danger when she is busy sucking up the loose dog fur.
We men do our best to avoid all three wires. We spend gobs of money on tools that run with lithium ions. That way we can't be electrocuted like our wives might be with their vacuum cleaners.
Somewhere between the transistor radio and laptop computer, someone figured out how to stuff Chinese made micro electronics in between the three holes in the outlet. Then they convinced the building code writers to require them. I guess they were worried that the hole waiting for the round prong that Dad clipped off might not be doing it's job.
I'm sure somewhere there is someone that a GFCI has helped. I have not met them. So, when a GFCI gives me a PITA, I do what dear old Dad would do, get rid of it. For 99 cents I can get a serviceable replacement with no electronics. For about four bucks I can get a really good replacement with excellent connectors and no electronics.
In some cases, I think getting rid of a GFCI is a serious improvement in reliability. For example, I might be gone in the motorhome when the tasty and costly Costco treats in the condo freezer thaw because a GFCI had a bad micro second. That's not going to happen in my garage.
Dad would be proud of me.
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Les, I had the same problem and it drove me nuts trying to figure out the why. Finally just replaced the GFI on that particular garage circuit with a standard outlet. May be be totally correct but it works. I still have 6 GFI protected circuits in the garage so I don't mind having that one dedicated to the Beaver.
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This is a crying wolf story in most cases. The GFCI more often than not is defective, being too sensitve due to poor manufacturing or age. The GFCI version I mentioned earlier, that is listed in Joel's post, has been used as a replacement in several instances and resolved a false tripping problem. The wet environment version seems to be more fault tolerent.
I would give this type GFCI a try before eliminating one. The unit is constantly watching for stray current that could be going through you. If there is a current mismatch of 4 to 5 milliamps or more between the hot and neutral it will trip. Because the motorhome is sitting on tires isolated from earth ground and there is so much grounded metal available to be in contact with if working in the bays, the motorhome application is actually one of the places they make sense to be used.
I know the human species was not headed for extinction due to electrocutions before these GFCIs were invented but I do think I would rather the GFCI feel more of the thrill than me.
Later Ed
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Well put, Ed. Although I too got a chuckle from Bill's expose', one has to lend some credance to the reasoning behind GFCI use in modern construction. I, like Ed, would not replace one with a standard outlet, especially given the higher risk environment and application we are talking about, and the fact that there are quality GFCIs available as replacements. In the house, what might be your future liability to anyone hurt because you replaced a code-endorsed device with one that wasn't; and would your fire insurance be enforceable if you broke code.
A GFCI shuts down a circuit so much faster than a breaker, I'm not sure a person would even know if he'd nearly been dealt a healthy jolt. As many times as I've had to reset GFCI's in my day, I do wonder, depending on the cause, what might have happened if it weren't for the device. Better annoyed by a replaceable oversensitive Ground Fault Circuit Interupter than dead or damaged.
Joel
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... Because the motorhome is sitting on tires isolated from earth ground and there is so much grounded metal available to be in contact with if working in the bays, the motorhome application is actually one of the places they make sense to be used. .....
Ed,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I'm plugged in to a standard 50 or 30 amp RV hook up there is no GFCI protection from the post. Right?
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Thanks for all of the input and humor. It has certainly been a learning lesson about GFCI outlets.
I plugged in to a non GFCI protected circuit and all worked as it should. Therefore, I will replace the GFCI with the one that Ed recommended. Since, I have have water features where these outlets are, I want to stay with them for all of those reasons mentioned.
Also, I have never seen a GFCI at an RV post, even for 20 amp.
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Just changed out the GFCI to the recommended on and it still pops out. Guess I will have to rethink this. I have plugged in before with no problem. Dont understand what changed to start the popping. I wonder if there is something a miss in the transfer switch?
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What is turnd on in the Beaver? I know one had his engine heat on and that uses a few amps?
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I have the coach switch turned off, the electric water heater breaker is off. Nothing is on.
I am using the same power cords that I have always used. Also, the coach was plugged in for about 7 days before I started having the problem.
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Les,
I am not an electronics engineer or electrician. So take this with a grain of salt, or two.
My understanding is that a GFCI is designed to measure very small, even tiny, electrical changes. If detected it shuts the circuit down in microseconds. At first, they were only used in bathrooms where you might be hanging on to the water spigot and blow drying your hair with a faulty hair dryer. That made a little sense.
As the primary feed to an entire motorhome, it may not make sense.
By their very nature, our generators, transfer switches and inverters make "spikes", or small electrical changes, as they switch from one to the other. Today, the relay in the transfer switch might have some dust on it and make a spike tripping the GFCI. Tomorrow, it might not make a spike and the GFCI will be fine.
Standard RV power poles don't have GFCIs on their 30 and 50 amp circuits. Everything runs well and safely when we plug into the hookups at our campsites. Maybe our motorhomes were not made to require or expect a GFCI circuit as a primary power supply. It may be that using a GFCI circuit to supply power to a motorhome is going to be troublesome.
My understanding is that it takes some fancy equipment to measure and record the momentary spikes that can trip a GFCI. A simple $5 circuit tester with lights that glow "OK" is enough to determine that the hot, neutral and ground wires are properly connected.
Good luck. At least when water leaks you can see the drip. Amp and volts are harder!
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I will check the transfer switch for dust. We were in two sand/dust storms on our trip. A lot of fine dust/sand got into the coach and probably in the basement.
That being said, I still am at a loss as to why after being plugged in for a week it started happening. But lets start with blowing out the transfer switch first and see if that helps.
Thanks for your thoughts and help. I appreciate all of the advise.
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Bill,
You are right, there is no GFCI cicuitry at the power post. You use these type outlets at point of use where you might have body contact with a ground source like a sink or where you might be using a faulty power tool like in the bay with grounded metal frame all around. You really do not need to feed the motorhome with a GFCI given the point of uses in the motorhome are covered by GFCI. It is likely that there is enough electronics, transfer switch circuitry, and other things being fed by the main power feed that a single 20 amp GFCI sees an inbalance in the load with a stray 4 to 5 milliamps going to ground somewhere momentarily which may be quite normal.
Les,
If the wet environment one still pops feeding the RV but you have not disabled any of the point of use ones in the motorhome then I would not worry about it. My suspicion is that the original one that you used to feed the RV probably was defective and not working if the wet environment version does not work. If for some reason you have replaced one of the point of use GFCIs in the RV with a non GFCI because it always tripped and you now have the same situation with the coach feed then maybe you could have some legitimate electrical fault that needs to be understood. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Sometimes the adaptors go bad. Have you tried a different one?
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You may want to try changing the 50 to 30 and/or 30 to 20 adapter. There have been some issues with them.
I have seen several electrical pedestals with ground fault circuits on the 15/20 amp outlets.
Larry
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Richard and Larry are quite right, Les. I've had adapters go bad myself, and especially if they are outside. Check it and all cord plugs for burn marks or melting.
That said, your ultimate fix would be to add a dedicated 30 amp RV outlet, on its own circuit and breaker, to plug into, which is what I did. You could go 50A, but you don't need it for storage; you don't need 30A either, but it's nice if you ever need to test an A/C, heater, etc.
Joel
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I have changed all of the adapters except for the 50A power cord on the coach. I plugged the coach into a non GFCI circuit and I dont seem to have a problem. It is suppose to snow tonight so probably on Sunday I will take a look at the transfer switch for dust etc.
When I had the shop built a few years ago, I had them put in a 30A circuit, but they put a 50A plug on it. Cant remember why they did that. SInce I have been unable to find a male 50A to female 30A adapter, looks like I will have to rewire the circuit to 30A and put a 30A socket in.
Has anybody seen a 50 to 30 amp adapter?
Thanks for all of the suggestions and help. I really appreciate it.
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I just looked under the lid at the post, and found GFCIs on the 20 amp plugs, but not on the 30 or 50. Who ever uses 20 when there is 30 and 50 available?
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Both 30 to 50 and 50 to 30 adapters are available.
Larry
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You can buy one through the Amazon Radio Bar on the the BAC home page or any RV supply store like Camping World.
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Now I'm confused, Les. You have been plugged into a 20 amp circuit, have checked your adapters, but can't find where to buy a 50 to 30 amp adapter? How are you getting your 50 amp cord down to a 15/20 amp outlet without a 50/30 adapter? Or are you saying you are suspicious of the one you already have (even though you've checked it) and want to try a new one? As Richard said, there are ready sources for them, including small box and big box hardware stores everywhere. Admittedly, I have been in a couple hardware stores over the years that didn't have one in stock.
One problem could be voltage drop over too long of a cord arrangement, esp. if the first cord out of the outlet is a standard orange one designed for 15 amps. That's part of what screwed my 15/20 to 30 amp adapter a few years ago, while the coach was stored, and caused some wierd cycling of the rig's transfer switch. I splurged on a heavier duty outdoor 3 wire 12 guage cord (yellow), and stopped using orange 14-16 guage cords, even though storage never draws much current. If you want to stick with the 20 amp outlet, try a 15 or 25 ft. 12 guage cord, in case voltage drop is causing the transfer switch to trip that circuit's GFCI.
I don't see why you don't just plug the coach cord into the 50 amp outlet you say the electricians wired a 30 amp circuit to in your shop. It won't have 2 120v. legs like a 50, but should safely supply 30 amps. They may have used a 50 amp outlet so you could plug a 50 amp RV cord directly in without adapting. If the cord isn't long enough, I'd switch the outlet to the 30 amp the breaker and wire were designed for, and use 25 ft. of 30 amp cord and keep a 30-50 adapter on its female end; if you aren't already, you should be carrying that arrangement with you in the coach anyway - it can be useful in some camping situations.
Keith, not all campers use 30 or 50 amp systems. If tenters are in the site, alone or accompanying a big rig, they can use a 15/20 outlet. And so can park personnel when doing site maintenance with power tools and such. Because of the outdoor potentially wet locations, code requires the 15/20s be exclusively Ground Fault Circuit Interupter outlets. As Ed said, the 30/50 outlets are not "terminal" circuits, just feeders that supply smaller circuits downstream in the coach; those coach circuits are "terminal" or end-use/point-of-use circuits, and already have GFCIs protecting them (or should have).
Joel
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I found this interesting since until this post I have thought very little about GFI.
http://personal.cha.bellsouth.net/j/o/johngd/files/rv/gfi.pdf
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Very interesting article. I currently have the coach plugged into a non GFCI circuit and all appears to be fine. I guess I will just have to use this same circuit all of the time.
I still wonder what changed to cause the problem now and not for the last two years. If there is a problem, I would like to find it now rather then when I am 200 miles from a service facility. Sometimes I think too hard, and maybe try to find the cause of an issue that maybe isn't there.
Thanks to everybody for the help and input. I did get some ideas that I did not think of so it was very very helpful.
Now I think I will rewire that 50A circuit to a 30A and use that to plug into.
Joel
As to your thread. I have always used a yellow 20A cord with adapters to the 50A coach cord. I did change the adapters and tried different combinations and still had the problem. Since you had a similar problem a couple years ago, it is best to change the 50A circuit and not even use the 20A. Remember the KISS solution. Keep It Simple Stupid, which I did not. Thanks