BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Edward Buker on June 04, 2012, 05:44:21 PM
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I am quite happy with the over the road air leveling system that was originally put in these coaches (mine is a 2002 Marquis non tag) It seems to have fairly high flow leveling valves and uses a lot of air while traveling over the road. In doing so, in my opinion, it does a good job with ride and leveling the coach, while keeping the system relatively simple as air leveling systems go.
I do not think the amount of change, cost, and complexity that would be added to go to an HWH active air system would provide enough benefit to be worthwhile and it is very expensive at 7K+. It is a very complex system involving new valves, air lines, speed sensors, steering angle sensors, computers etc.
What I did, is talk with HWH about adding air leveling of a more traditional type to this coach. What they would do is remove the hydraulic rams over the axle and cap the lines (they could also at your request leave that system in place but were concerned about someone activating both systems at the same time which could cause a problem) and install all the necessary component/system changes to have traditional air leveling put in place. This would also enable raising the coach or the clearance at one axle using a manual button if you had a temporary ground clearance issue that you wanted to overcome at low speed, like a steep driveway entrance.
I was quoted $4600 to do that job and they would want the coach for 5 days. I am not ready to do this this just yet, but for a number of us that still have the hydraulic leveling systems I was wondering how many might be interested in this change over. One day we will have a leveling system fail and be faced with the inability to get parts or repairs with these SMC custom systems. Thay are less than optimum in there operation as leveling systems go. My thought is if we had 4 or 5 or more coaches maybe HWH would consider a BAC pricing plan for a group of $4000 each and we could have a mini rally next spring in Iowa. I have no idea if they would entertain this but it would seem plausible with enough business as a group. Not looking for any commitement, just how many would be interested at a 4K price.
Let me know if there is any interest in this proposal. The good thing is HWH engineering and factory installs are top notch and from then on service, tech support, and parts availability around the country should be possible. At times that is worth its weight in gold...
Later Ed
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Ed, I have often wondered the same thing. That is, what to do if and when a failure occured. My thought was to (when the failure happened) contact HWH or some other hydraulic manufacturer to see if using existing lines and rams could still be used. That way the only upgrade and cost would be a new hydraulic pump, manifold and switching. Of coarse the new system would have to have provisions to operate the front slide or stand alone and keep the old system also, for the operation of the slide. I'm not even opposed to having four seperate switches to run the system manually like my old 98 Monterey. Of coarse in a manual mode you would have to run the rams in pairs once they were bottomed so as not to twist the chassis and pop the windshield out or crack it. Whats your thought on that?
Marty
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Ed,
And I am one of the ones that have had this system fail....twice. The first time we had an extended warranty take care of it but now no extended warranty and no one in the south that knows how to work on it. Sure, We can carry it to a shop and they can spend several hundred dollars trying to figure it out and then tell me....opps we can not fix it
Count me in as this is the coach that we are going to have forever. If someone knows who can fix these systems, I will fly them to New Orleans and pay them to fix it but I can not handle the ones that will put the coach in the shop and let the clock run on it.
Thanks,
Jerry
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I also have had concerns about this type of leveling system. I have not had any problems with mine as of this date. The company that made our system is; Quatra Manufactureing in Ohio, trade name "Big Foot" RV Leveing System. Back in the early 2000's they would not talk to anyone about our system. This was because of bad feallings between them and SMC. However, I did see them at the last Tampa Super Show and the guy at the booth indicated they would consider repair/maintenance of these older MH systems. Some of the controllers and level sensors are still used in their current product lines. Perhaps, someone representing BAC could make contact with the management of Quatra and work out some kind of arrangement for technical/repair support.
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Marty, Jerry,
I touched on the subject of an alternate controller for the current system and they were not interested due to liability issues and picking up ownership of components that they did not engineer. The person I spoke with was well aware of this SMC system and they were familiar with retrofiting air leveling into our coaches that have these systems. He told me that they invented that ram to the axle concept but SMC evidently got wind of it and used it but would not go with HWH components. He said they bought cheap controllers that have had failure problems. Sounded like a bit of bad blood from that era.... HWH dropped the work on that leveling method when SMC brought it to market without them.
I think it would be wise to go with a main stream non customized system so that it can be maintained over the years by someone who does things right and will be in business. I think air leveling has enough advantages over our current hydraulic system to believe that is the way to go. I think it is a fair question by HWH to decide if you want the current rams removed. He indicated that in all but one install that is what they did. I indicated that a relay could be added to disable the hydraulic leveling control pad when the air leveling system was in use but he was not interested in touching/customizing anything that was part of the current coach system. I asked if they would leak check the current air leveling system and he said no, that system needed to be serviced by whoever handles those systems today. My net is that they control and manage the quality of their systems and installs by only installing and servicing just what they know and that is a good strategy for a business.
By the feedback I have read, it would be rare to see a negative comments about HWH and their work done at the factory location in Iowa. That is the only location that they said they would use to install this system.
If anyone has had the HWH conversion to air leveling from the current hydraulic system done please comment on any pros and cons between the two systems and your experience.
Thanks Ed
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I didn't realize that SMC jumped around with respect to its supplier for leveling systems. Ours was made by RVA and I've gotten good phone support from them when I've called. As long as I can get adequate tech and parts support I am in no hurry to change anything.
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Joel,
I think we are discussing a different system.... Ours is a proprietary SMC system where the hydraulic rams are located over an axle and do not touch the ground. This system has little support beyond BCS in Bend. My understanding is that parts for this system are very limited if available at all. I do not think any of the 2000 year coaches had this sytem. Maybe Gerald can chime in here as to which coaches and years had this sytem.
Later Ed
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The SMC leveling system was used on the 2001 and 2002 coaches only.
Gerald
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As I recall that system was first used on the Solitare, then in 2001 it was put on the Marquis and Patriot. BCS was still the factory service center at that time and they removed just about every jack to put the new type on. The jacks would slip off the rear end housing and the coach would drop, rapidly, and in most cases puncture the inside rear tire. New jacks had a ring welded on and came down over a pad so it could not slip. If you are interested in an air ride sys. With air leveling and also hydrolic leveling just look at an early 1990s Marquis with HWH. HWH works great, some circuit board problems occure and HWH is very good about fixing, just send them box, they fix and send back. Steve
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Had air leveling installed on my '03 Monterey, and retained the hyd. jacks that extend to the ground. HWH did the job in 2 days, and cost $4000 back in June of 2007. Very happy with their work and works very well so far. By the way, they didn't even mention anything about the hyd. jacks.
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George,
Thanks for sharing your insight on your air leveling conversion with HWH. Sounds like you have been a happy camper.
The only hydraulic system that HWH is interested in disabling is the SMC system that Gerald referred to that was used in the 2001 and 2002 SMC coaches. That system uses the over the wheel rams between the coach chassis frame and the axles which are used for the landing pads. The hydraulic rams that go to the ground are not involved in their concern. The person I spoke with seemed to imply that if both systems were active at one time that one system could damage the other and I am still pondering that one a bit.
If anyone has any reason that you would consider not disabling the SMC system during a conversion to air leveling please pass that info along to me in a post here.
Also, anyone else mildly interested in a conversion to an HWH air leveling sytem?
Later Ed
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I too have 2003 Monterey and I would like to add air levelling as George Harwell did. So I guess you could include me on a group buy-in deal.
Marc Rodstein
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We had HWH put air leveling in our 2003 Patriot Thunder about 3 years ago and kept our hydraulic system (leveling to axles). I was thrilled with the way it worked. We could push the leveling button when we stopped at a rest area and were level within seconds. The air was not dumped as with our hydraulic system so it didn't take a lot of time and make a lot of noise when we wanted to leave a campground early in the morning. It also had more height range than our hydraulic system which was a plus as our coach was very low. Sometimes that meant we needed to use a step to reach the ground. HWH is a great company. The office and the techs were wonderful to work with.
We traded in our Patriot for a 2002 42' Marquis and had HWH put air leveling on this coach last summer, retaining the hydraulic system again. They had a lot of trouble with our tag axle. Probably wouldn't with a 40' coach. However --- the system that they install now has been changed and the things that I loved about it no longer apply. We were told that the owner thought people preferred to be lower to the ground, so now the air is dumped before leveling. It takes longer to level and to retract, but it definitely is lower to the ground. Since I didn't care about that aspect, but really miss the things I loved with the original system, I would have preferred that they had informed us of the changes before we spent the money. It does take less time than the hydraulic and it is possible to manually level, so much of the air can be left in the system, but that makes leveling a bit more of a challenge. The result - Mike likes it. I am disappointed.
Mary
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Marc,
Thanks for your response. I will add you to a potential number when I talk to HWH and see if they will entertain this proposal.
Mary,
Thanks for your insight. That aspect of the air system and the changes they made I would not have known about. I can see your point and may have preferred the old methodolgy also. That issue would not prevent me from getting the new system butit is good to know the pros and cons. Thanks.
So far Ed, Jerry, and Marc. Anyone else pondering making the change? At this stage, this is just for getting a quote.
Later Ed
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Ed....Please include me on the list as interested. We are currently at Lake Pleasant in Bothell where the sloped nature of many of the sites reminds one of the limitations of my leveling system. the weather here is great for the ducks and geese, the population of which has appeared to increase from last year, but otherwise the wx is not good for much.
John Fearnow
2002 patriot-thunder
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John,
Hope all is well with you and the family. I will add you to the list. My weather in VT is a lot like you weather in Bothell. Enjoy your goose dinner if they spend too much time at your site :-) Anyone else interested?
Later Ed
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Ed,
Do not forget me on this. I will be prepared to do this in the fall. I still think that I might can fix mine as it looks like I took a power surge while we were in North Carolina and this is what might have caused me problems. I am going to try and reprogram the leveling unit and see what I come up with. Anyone know where I can obtain a 50 AMP hardwire surge protector at a resaonable price?
Thanks Jerry
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Jerry,
I won't forget you, so far it is Ed, Jerry, Marc, and John as a potential group. Any other takers? I will give this another week, and then whatever potential parties we have, we will call that our group. At some point after that I will call HWH and have the conversation about a group rate and will keep you posted.
As much as we do not want to spend the money, and at the moment have an operating system, I do think think in the end this is the right thing to do. The only time you will experience a fail with the existing system is when you need it while on the road. At that point you will be stuck due to lack of parts or a resource that knows the system and can repair it. That scenario just gets worse with time. The other issue is for the most part these are a well built coach that they will not make again in the industry. If you have a plan to keep it or sell it down the road a ways, this upgrade will work for you in either case. The current leveling system does a decent job regarding leveling but a terrible design for retracting and dropping the coach too rapidly in my opinion. That class B fair ride, as one owner put it, I would like to see gone. Mostly I want a system that I know I can get repaired and get real support and parts with a phone call. The option of raising the coach for a driveway entrance would also be nice if needed.
FYI I am thinking of having the jacks removed in my case and just keep things simple with one system and one leveling control pad. Time will tell on that one...
Later Ed
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Ed,
As previously stated, mine is broke now and yes, I want something that works and something that I can get support with. I am not planning on getting rid of the coach as we are happy with it but when it decides to act up like this, I need a solution not a money pit. Of course everyone states that they can fix it but after they have taken a big bunch of my cash. This system uses the coaches existing air bags as the leveing sytem?
Thanks,
Jerry
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Jerry,
Yes the air leveling system uses the existing air bags to level the coach. I know little about your Contessa Coach configuration and what if any differences that would be involved in adding air leveling to your coach vs mine. The specifics about your coach will have to be discussed by you with HWH when the time comes. If your coach rides on air springs (bags) then HWH should have a solution.
When I discuss the pricing with them I should end up with a contact and a number to pass along if we are provided any benefit as a group. I plan on calling early next week.
Later Ed
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I have been a bit remiss on my schedule to discuss this group rate proposal with HWH. We had a good friend go into the hospital and we have been helping them out as well as family members here in VT so this project took a back seat for a bit. I also had a hard time reaching the right individual at HWH but I was able to connect and have the discussion that I needed to with Jeff at HWH yesterday.
The net is it looks like it is a no go from HWH. As the factory they are obligated not to undercut the dealer network pricing so they have that limitation as a policy. It is a bit of a catch 22 given that he shared that the HWH dealer network people do not generally come to the factory and get the level of training needed to do this kind of conversion. He would only have the folks at the factory perform this installation. I understand that issue. I'm not implying that there are not good dealers out there who could service the HWH systems, just that the best skill base for the kind of work needed to do a full conversion resides at the factory. The person to speak with if you find yourself wanting to go ahead with this is Jeff and the current pricing that he quoted was $4600.
There are probably a hand full of folks from Bend that have the skills given they installed these systems at the factory but I'm not sure who those resources are and if they are still in the business. I guess if I have this done it would be with HWH at some point.
Later Ed
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thanks a lot for your research on this.... we will try and make an educated decision in the near future.
Regards,
jerry
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All,
Just a bit of an update...We replaced the Brain to the system and programmed it and amazingly it has worked with no problem. I currently have two spare "brains" and two key pads if anyone runs into any problems. I plan on sending the two brains to BCS to have them flashed or zeroed. Now to sort thru another problem with air dump switch or air dump solenoid not working....(Can live with it).
Thanks to all for their assistance with this problem.
Jerry
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Sounds like they used the SMC system on 2003s as well. I have it on my Marquis. It just decided to stop working last night. Why would someone who paid in excess of $ 550,000.00 not order the dual levelling systems? Hopefully I don't have to join you guys in a $4000.00 air changeover
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Dave,
I did not have to add the air leveling system. I just changed out the brain and programmed it and all is well. so far.....
Please let me know about the brain if you need one. I am currently working overseas now and I will be home at the end of March if you need one of the brains. The price for the the brain is $300 plus whatever shipping would be involved in me sending to Beaver Coach Sales for zeroing. Also the cost of shipping to you. For the keypad the cost is $200 plus the cost of shipping to you.
Jerry
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When I bought my coach the SMC system would not level the coach properly and left a side to side tilt. In retrospect I probably should have gone back to BCS and had them zero it but I had already left there and was in a campground some miles away and was not aware of the availability of that calibration technique.
The level sensor is in the brain module under the dash cover on mine. By adding washers under one side of the brain I was able to zero out the tilt myself. The mount is on wood strand board as I remember it and that may be not as stable a material over the years as one would like to keep this calibrated or maybe the brain unit ages and induces the tilt in calibration. At any rate, if the tilt is repeatable, you should be able to compensate for it yourself by retilting the brain module using spacers under the appropriate mounting screws with a little trial and error. Mine has not had to be touched for the three years I have been using it, once I initially calibrated the proper mounting tilt.
later Ed
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Hi Jerry, I may take you up on those components, as I mentioned the system just decided to stop working a couple of days ago, and after reading all these posts I started calling it the SMC system , but after looking at the controller today , it is actually an IDS system, I was going to call Beaver Coach tomorrow and ask for some advice. The system was working perfectly, and then nothing. The control pad has power, it shows all up, and if you hit the retract button, you can hear the pump. But nothing happens when you hit the auto button, or the semi button. It does not even dump the air, and the air dump toggle on the console does not dump the air either. Ahhhhhrrrrg, what next? The day before water leaked into the electrical bay from a hole someone drilled for a tire pressure monitoring system, shorted out the connectors on the smart wheel controller, which I thought, no big deal. I'll just clean them up and spray them with WD-40 and that will fix it, no such luck. Downloaded the manual and ran through their diagnostics, and it says replace the controller. Awesome what's that worth?