BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Bill Sprague on July 15, 2012, 08:26:08 PM
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A neighbor has a Tiffen with the same Cummins as in my Beaver. On the way home from Alaska the engine "blew up". He says it was because the turbo sucked in parts of, and the dirt in, the air filter. He says it will be weeks before he can return to northern British Columbia with his motorhome and that he will be leaving much of his wallet behind.
Other than the engine problem and his towbar breaking, they had a good trip.
Out of fear, I am going to replace my air filter. In it now is a Fleetguard AH8503 like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Cummins-Filtration-Fleetguard-Housing-AH8503/dp/B00308ISIK
A little cheaper is a Donaldson like this: http://www.filterspro.com/detail.cfm?part=1639273
An interesting more expensive choice is a K&N that is washable: http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=38-2002S
Should I go for the washable one with the idea I can keep it cleaner? Opinions?
Thanks.
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I would go with the K&N filter. It will pay for itself in no time at all. I use K&N in my classic cars and they are fantastic. In fact after reading this thread I think I will see if I can find one for my cat.
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I think I need to do some more research about the use of a K&N air filter on a diesel engine.
Caterpillar, Cummins and DD all recommend against replacing the OE filters with the re-usable kind because of increased passage of dirt (as well as air).
Certainly if you have one, follow the manufacturers recommendations for maintenance. I would not install any fuel or power enhancing device without seeing independent, 3rd party , unbiased , blind studies that prove what is claimed by the maker. Nor would i install such devices without input from the engine maker..i.e. CAT . This is most important if you are still under warranty. The replacement cost of an engine is to great.
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It would be likely that the filter plugged to the point that the engine suction tore it apart and ingested the dirt and debris or it just failed and allowed the dirt to enter the engine. The diesel engine manufacturers do not want you blowing out or trying to clean conventional filters for fear of getting dirt on the inside face and ingesting some of it into the engine. These engined are not overly tolerant to ingesting dirt.
For my money the Donaldson Endurance filter is probably one of the best made filters on the market. The filter technology was developed to hold the dirt above the main filter face so that air flow is maintained longer from a clogging point of view, they basically have more capacity to handle dirt. I believe that they are slightly more restrictive at a starting point then some of the conventional filter media but the filter design more than make up for that characteristic over the life of the filter. These filters are used in M1 tanks in desert conditions. Beyond the capacity to handle dirt without plugging they have excellent particle removal efficiency. There are graphs and literature describing the capability of these filters.
http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/000165.pdf
I noticed that K+N does not use the oil soak version in the large diesel model filter line. They say these are washable using degreasers and pressure washers or compressed air. I could not see any data referenced regarding particle removal efficiency. I am a sceptic when it comes to pressure washing an air filter or using a degreaser and compressed air......surprised they are telling you to do that. These engines are so expensive and the filters are relatively cheap. If the filter has a damaged area with a hidden hole or break in the media somewhere most of the airflow and dirt will follow that less restrictive path.
http://www.knfilters.com/hdfilters/heavy-duty-air-filters.htm
My perspective is if you know you will be traveling on dirt roads in Alaska consider the Donaldson Endurance filter, pay attention to the filter restriction guage, and carry a couple of spares. I run one of the Endurance filters, EAF5069 was the number for my Marquis. Ryder Fleet prices this filter at $53.30
The standard filter version is P527682 at $37.62, about $15 more. Given the extended life of the Endurance it is actually cheaper per mile to own.
The filter capacity is a function of the filter surface area. If you could unfold the pleats in the K+N vs the Donaldson Endurance there would be no comparison from what I saw. Check the photos out. There is more involved then just surface area regarding restriction and filter capacity but it would make sense from a design point of view to maximize the surface area as a starting point. My vote would be the Donaldson Endurance until something better is out there...just one opinion.
Later Ed
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When I had my Cat engine serviced by Johnson Cat in Riverside CA last fall they recommended a K&N Filter which they installed.
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Further to what Ed suggested, carrying a replacement (or two) is a good idea. Having put a new filter in my Thunder before embarking on my Alaska trip, then driving less than 3K miles, but going over the Top of the World in what can only be described a extreme dust, the gauge showed to replace. It is not a simple filter cartridge rather it is a large metal filter with a right angle tube with the filter being part of the tube. It too is a Donaldson and I believe it was $155+/- in Manitoba, HOWEVER the price for a new one in Fairbanks was $197 :(
(the one in Fairbanks is an equivalent - I hope) Good think they had one, although I expect I could have found one in Anchorage.
Now having maybe 500 miles since Fairbanks the gauge shows 20 which means near replacement (25 is replacement). I don't think it needs to, rather as Ed and others pointed out in a different discussion, the gauge seems to show pretty high restriction even though I doubt it is.
The one I did take out was full of dirt at the intake but on the top of the outlet side it was pretty clean which makes me think that restriction was high but dirt was not getting through.
Jeff
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I agree with Ed's view point on the K&N filter. You could not pay me to install one in my coach.
Gerald
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;)Wow Gerald, you made me laugh. I guess you won't be endorsing K&N anytime soon.
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Well, we just cleaned, oiled and reinstalled what appeared to be the original K&N air filter. Was this OE on any Beavers? Is this not a good filter?
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If your coach has a K&N air filter, it was installed by a previous owner. Beaver never installed K&N air filters as original equipment.
As for the question about whether or not it is a good filter, you will have to read the data and decide for yourself. From the data that I have read, I do not want one.
Gerald
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.....For my money the Donaldson Endurance filter is probably one of the best made filters on the market.
The Donaldson cross for my filter is a P537448 and they don't describe it as an "Endurance" model. The call it an 'Ecolite". And, of course I can't tell what that means. http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/000622.pdf
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Further to what Ed suggested, carrying a replacement (or two) is a good idea.
My filter is big. It is 2 feet long and a foot in diameter. It is in a steel, throw away sleeve. A couple of those would make me leave the lawn chairs and barbecue behind.
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I agree with Ed's view point on the K&N filter. You could not pay me to install one in my coach.
Gerald
Gerald,
Do you have an opinion of Donaldson vs. Fleetguard? Those appear to be my choices.
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Bill,
I have not researched the difference between Donaldson and Fleetguard air filters. Mostly because my coach uses a replaceable element like an 18 wheeler and not a through away assemble like yours. My coach can use element replacements from most air filter manufactures. I prefer the Donaldson element for my coach, because it is so readily available as well the fact that it is well made structurally with very good filtering specifications.
Gerald
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In extreme dust conditions even the best filters can plug relatively quickly. So use your guage as a guide. It is the change from the starting point that is important. It is hard to carry several extra filters and if I was on the kind of roads that are extreme dust at some point I would be faced with trying to clean the filter on the road. That should lead to a good discussion....
I guess I would tape over the end inlet hole and screw hole if was the cartridege type. Tap the filter face on a board going around taping the outer pleats. Then I would hose it with water using a spray pattern rather than a stream getting as much dirt as I can to flow out and then let it dry. Untape the openings and install it.....not sure if that would be the best procedure but it would help, If it was one of the metal canister types I do not think it would be possible to clean one.
Bill, I'm sure the Ecolite is a good filter and may already contain some of the Endurance filter technology.
Fleetguard is owned by Cummins and they make decent air filters. They would be my second choice. My guess is that the miitary applications of desert warfare spent a lot of our tax money on researching the problem of plugged filters and engine failure due to dirt penetration. Donaldson owns the filter technology that best solutioned that problem. We benefit from that tax money spent....
I ran heavy equipment, dozers, pans, graders, dump trucks, in the Army many years ago. I can remember plugged filters after several days of very severe dust condition use. So if the air inlet of your engine is traveling in a dust cloud for hours on the road in Alaska then you need to check the air filter guage often and respond as best you can.
Later Ed
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One other thing on filters..... When a company says that they are making a filter that is less restrictive or provides more HP you need to understand how they did that. There are only two ways to reduce restriction, one is increasing the pore size and the other is to increase the surface area. The Donaldson filter that I referenced has an extreme amount of pleating and surface area for its size, more than any other filter I have seen. It also has filter media with a very small pore size to capture small particles at a very high efficiency. They have optimized the design to obtain the best result.
The Donaldson Endurance testing indicates high efficiency particle removal in the sub micron range and an overall 99.99% particle removal rate. The K+N quotes between a 96% and 99% efficiency but they do not include sub micron particles at all in their test. K+N refer to course dust tests only in the independant lab tests.
To put it clearly K+N does a fair to poor job at removing the boulders and Donaldson does a fine job at removing the grains of sand by comparison. I was not impressed with K+N filtration at all.....they are selling cleanable filters and not filters that produce very clean air for engines. Very large difference between 96% efficiency and 99.99% when hundreds of millions of particles are in the airstream needing to be removed over the life of the filter.
I'm with Gerald on this one, couldn't pay me to own one. You spend a huge amount of money for these engines, filtration is the last place you want to save a dime....
Later Ed
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Just out of curiosity is there a way to retrofit/change the large canister type of filter that I have to use(replace$) with a cartridge type - I am not referring to the k&n.
I expect someone/company with more expertise than I could fabricate a metal canister that fits the intake plenum box and then connects to the engine intake pipe but can use a cartridge instead of having to replace the whole metal unit which, as was pointed out, it about 30" long and about 1' wide (in its box).
If so, then could easily carry a couple of filters and and they would be less $.
Jeff
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Thanks Gerald, you saved me a bit of worry. I just found a source for a K&N that would fit ours and was considering it since our canister type is so hard top clean or replace. The last new one I had sent UPS from Bend and NAPA here wants $385.
I do wonder though if there is a way to use a small K&N as a prefilter to the main OEM one? Seems that would keep the main filter cleaner longer and flow more air if it were kept clean.
What say you all?
Keith
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I ordered the Donaldson at http://www.filterspro.com/index.cfm. The shipping was $20 and the filter $109. No sales tax outside of AZ. I have never done business with Filter Product Corporation, so we will see what happens.
I'll report back when I get it successfully installed.
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Update: The filter arrived in a couple of days. I put off working on it until yesterday. It was a lot easier than I thought it would be.
The air filter used by Beaver on my motorhome is a big, self contained can mounted on a shelf in the engine compartment. It is held down with a single clamp, connects to the engine with a hose clamp on a rubber boot and connects to the inlet with a similar boot.
I expected it to be difficult to get the rubber boots off, but it was not. Every job on my motorhome seems to take three times longer than planned. This one took 20 minutes.
I started by vacuuming the area with a shop vac. I took the clamps off and the boots pulled loose without any hassle. I put the new one in place, slid the boots on and replaced the clamps.
I decided that I didn't like the way Beaver installed the clamp on the engine side. Considering how important it is to keep dirt out of the engine, a single low grade hose clamp seems to be problem waiting to happen. The clamp used is a quick release style where the threads of the screw can fold out of the way -- on purpose or by accident. I'm adding a second clamp as a backup.
The existing filter was about three years old with about 30,000 miles on it. It was not very dirty and appeared to be in great condition.
The filter change was so easy I decided to change out the house water pump. The old one has been having a little difficulty when the water tank gets low. It might be an aging check valve. The water pump did take three times longer than planned!