BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Steve Adams on September 29, 2009, 07:33:21 AM
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We have a new to us 2001 Beaver Contessa, 40' with a CAT 330hp/Allison 6 speed. Yesterday we left Seaside and stopped in North Plains to fuel up. When we finished the coach would not start. We had plenty of battery, it turned over but would not fire. After sitting about 45 minutes, and of course when the wrecker showed up, it started. We have not experienced this before in the short time we've owned it.
The only symptom I can offer is the tank sucked air while I removed the fuel filler cap. I have no idea if that had any impact on this or not but is the only thing I can think of that was out of the ordinary.
Anyone have any ideas?
Thanks!
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What was your fuel gage showing before you filled it? Assuming you filled it, how much did you put in? Are you driving it now or did it go to the shop? If you have a clear bowl on your fuel filter, what does that look like?
Bruce
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Without being able to check the coach, there is only one thing that comes to mind. Air in the fuel system is the most probable cause. The fact that the fuel tank sucked air when you removed the cap would indicate a restricted vent (check the vent) that may cause a poor o-ring seal at the Racor water separator or fuel filter to let a small amount of air enter the system.
There is an o-ring on each end of the sight glass/strainer for the Racor water separator that has a tendency to leak with age. Usually but not always, there will be diesel fuel stains around the area that is letting the air in because of slight fuel seepage. The other place to look is at the fuel filters esp. any filters that have been recently changed. Also look at the screen in the sight glass to see if it is clean or if it has algae build-up (a dark film).
Gerald
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Bruce, over 3/4 when we arrived at station, only put in 15 gallons. When it started, I drove it home. I can't find the bowl!
Gerald, the venting got me too, but who would have thought you could vapor lock (essentially) a diesel? The fuel water seperator and fuel filter are both clean. This rig has the rear mounted radiator and I cannot get a clear view of the engine from anywhere outside. Any idea where the bowl would be located?
Thanks to both of you for your replies!
Steve
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I think Gerald is referring to a Racor filter bowl that is plastic and fits on the bottom of a racor filter. I just trashed the Winn electric air purge fuel filter system that came on our '97 and replaced it with a Racor with a manual priming pump. The electric pump on the old Winn System failed.
http://www.parker.com/portal/site/PARKER/menuitem.7100150cebe5bbc2d6806710237ad1ca/?vgnextoid=f5c9b5bbec622110VgnVCM10000032a71dacRCRD&vgnextfmt=default&vgnextdiv=687630&vgnextcatid=2759464&vgnextcat=400+SERIES+FUEL+FILTER%2FWATER+SEPARATORS&Wtky=
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Hi Steve, my fuel seperator is in the passenger side rear with the batteries and air bleeders.
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My thinking is air or fuel restriction as well. I ruled out the vent because you had just equalized the pressure by removing the cap. If you would have said it started, then died i would have gone for the vent. I could be wrong though and the air could have been drawn in or the fuel restricted before you stopped and it all just happened to occur at that time. A stopped up vent could cause air to be sucked in at all of the places Gerald mentioned and more.
You said you were new to the coach so my first thought was that the fuel gage is giving you bad information and that again, you had happened to run out of fuel at that time. You said you added 15 gallons, not enough to fill it if it were really at 3/4. Two things here, these tanks are hard to fill. There is just no way to build them with good fuel flow at the fillers and not mess with the floor plans and appearance. It is a learning curve to know how fast (read slow) you have to go with them and how shallow in you can put the nozzle. There are very few auto shut off pumps that will go full open for long when filling mine.
The other thought is the filters. First thought is that you might have picked something up in the new fuel or stirred something up in your tank. Again, it would seem that you would have gotten a start followed by the engine dieing and again it could have been a big coincidence in timing.
As you see, dwelling on the timing could be a wrong idea. It could be a faulty wire or faulty fuel shut off switch. The big problem that you have is that it is not happening now. How far have you driven the coach since you bought it?
What is the condition of the chassis batteries? Did you try tying the batteries together when it would not start?
I do not think that you should have a vaccuum in your fuel tank. I would want to talk to someone smarter than I about that, finding out how and where it vents.
If it sat for a long time, particularly with low fuel, it would increase the possibility of algae. I would look for that.
If fuel filters have not been changed within the past year, I would change them as a matter of good practice and cut them open to see what you find.
Bruce
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Bruce, thanks again for your continued assistance. I'll pull the filters as soon as I can get hold of some replacements.
We bought the coach in mid-August. It had been driven about 2000 miles per year for the past 6 years and 12000 miles in its first 2 years on the road. The previous owner was pretty good with maintenance but was not familiar at all with the systems on the coach. He told me he had gotten in the habit of filling it prior to storing it for the year so I though I would carry on with that tradition. He stored it in a heated warehouse with AC power hooked up the entire time.
We've driven about 400 miles since buying it and have experienced zero issues with starting. We have had an air bag diverter valve adjusted, the radiator flushed and filled (nitrites added), an ABS sensor had a bad ground, the refrigerator board needed to be reset, the exhaust manifold gasket was leaking so we had that replaced and the leveling system was worked on though the repair facility never found the sensing (level) unit so it's still not right. We expected to have some issues on any used coach we purchased and this was acceptable to us.
We have other issues to address such as a (new) horrible smell now coming from the washer/dryer (previous owner says he never used it during the 6 years he owned it) multiple broken closet latches, broken toilet seat, the list goes on. And again, this was expected.
I'll let everyone know what I find when I pull the filters.
Thanks, Steve
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HiLarLee, thanks for the pointer. I looked at it this morning but did not notice anything on the bottom, so I just now went out and looked again and the bowl is a dark green - I'm guessing this is the algea everyone has been addressing.
If algea is in the fuel system and I replace the filter what should I do? Run out the fuel as much as possible? Add an algeacide (is there such a thing) to the fuel system? Replace the filter when the tank gets low? All of the above?
Thanks for everyones help here!
Steve
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You have water in your fuel tank and it needs to be removed along with the algae.
http://catrvclub.org/ has links to the CAT help line and they can advise you.
You can also to to RV.net and Forums and PM Brett Wolfe the past presidenet of the CAT RV club and he will give you excellent advice. wolfe10@earthlink.net
There are several methods and depend on how bad your water and algae problem is.
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Water and microbes in the form of bacteria and fungus (commonly called algae) is present in most diesel fuels, therefore it is best to buy the cleanest and freshest fuel from high volume dealers like Flying J.
There has been much discussion, as well as misunderstanding, of algae in diesel fuel. Algae require sunlight to live and grow. As there is no sunlight in a closed fuel tank, no algae can survive. However, some microbes can survive and feed on the diesel fuel.
These microbes form a colony that lives at the interface of fuel and water. They can grow quite rapidly in warmer temperature or even slowly over an extended tine (Steve's coach was stored in a heated warehouse and driven very little for years). Parts of the colony can break off and clog the fuel lines and fuel filters.
It is possible to either kill this growth with a biocide treatment, or eliminate the water, a necessary component of microbial life. There is a number of biocides on the market, which must be handled very carefully. If a biocide is used, it must be added every time a tank is refilled until the problem is fully resolved.
Biocides attack the cell wall of microbes resulting in lysis, the death of a cell by bursting. The dead cells then gather on the bottom of the fuel tanks and form a sludge, filter clogging will continue after biocide treatment until the sludge abates.
Given the right conditions, microbes will re-populate the tanks, and re-treatment with biocides will be necessary. With repetitive biocide treatments, microbes can form resistance to a particular brand. Trying another brand with a different antibiotic may resolve the problem.
Tank removal and internal cleaning is usually not necessary unless the problem is severe, as there are fuel additives available that will do the job much cheaper.
Gerald
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These additives you speak of Gerald, are they the ones you can buy at truck stops, i.e. Pri-Diesel is one I have seen.
Any others you can think of that are particularly good as a preventive.
Leah
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You can also check with a Marina that services larger boats as there are fuel tamk cleaning services that specalize in the flushing and removal of water and bios from boat fuel tanks.
http://www.sportfishermen.com/board/f27/fuel-polishing-tank-cleaning-38987.html
They also will do an RV and is a lot cheaper that removal and flushing of a tank. Cheaper if you meet them at a service point. They also "polish" the existing fuel so you do not lose it.
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The two most effective biocides that I know of are, Bio Kleen Diesel Fuel Biocide by Power Service Products and Racor Diesel Biocide. These products are designed to kill microbes in fuel.
If you have no signs of excess microbes in your fuel they may be of little benifit to you. There are other fuel additives available to increase fuel cetane, lubricity, and MPG or remove water. Most of the studies that I have read indicate that the increase in MPG is only enough to offset the cost of the additive, although some claim a saving in cost since a slight rise in MPG when you are getting 7-8 MPG is a large percentage.
Gerald
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The microbe in fuel topic may be leading Steve offtrack on a repair to his problem. He should verify the presence of excess microbes (algae) in his fuel and still check carefully for any possiblity of air leaks.
Gerald
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We have a 2002 Thunder new to us last Nov. We experienced the sour smell eminating from the washer/dryer. Check to see if you have any filler foam around the w/d drain hose where it sits in the stand pipe from the gray water tank. If there is no sealer there fumes come up around the drain hose from the gray tank. Bend repair center showed us this.
In our w/d (Adide brand I believe) water sits in a collection channel below the lint filter. If it is not used for a while that water can get stinky also. I think you can get rid of the water at least for storage periods by cycling the w/d a few times after turning off the water supply at the service manifold. That will pump the water out of the unit. May have to manually get the water out of the bottom of the lint filter.
John Fearnow
2002 Patriot Thunder, C-12
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Thanks to everyone for their continued interest in this thread.
I purchased replacement filters today and a biocide before I read Geralds excellent post on biocides. I got the filters and biocide from NAPA. The biocide is BIOBOR JF "The industry standard for the tratment and prevention of microbial growth". An 8 ounce container will treat 320 gallons of fuel.
The filters are NAPA Gold, 3231 for the fuel/water separator and 3626 for the fuel filter. These are 14 and 6 micron filters respectively. Wolfe on the caterpillar site says the filters should be 10 or 30 micron and 2 micron. Is there another filter I'm missing, maybe engine mounted? I did an exact replacement on the filters assuming they were the correct fit, etc.
He recommended (and stated that caterpillar recommended) replacing the filters dry. Can I assume the bulb on top of the fuel/water separator is to prime it and the fuel filter after replacement? Should I put the key in the accessory position to start the fuel pump a few times before actually starting?
It looks like a straight forward replacement, and maybe being a little to cautious but I don't want to make this any worse.
Thanks for the advice on the washer and levelers. I should start separate threads as suggested.
Thanks again, Steve
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Brett Wolfe is right on the fuel filter, you should be using a 2 micron filter. If you do not know how to purge the air out of the system when changing filters you probably should consider having a professional do it and watch him carefully so you can do it next time. It will be a cheap education because if you get a fuel system full of air it can be a big problem.
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If you fill a fuel filter "prime" before installing do not pour fuel down the center hole and the fuel you pour in will be filtered like any other. Mostly a matter of preference as it just speeds things up. The primimg pump you mentioned is for filling the filters also. Read your CAT engine manual about how long to use the starter so you do not over heat it when you restart after changing the filters as it can require turning the engine over a few times to get the system fully primed.
Most fuel delivery systems uses two filters or a water seperator and filter. The best filter life is a primary with water seperator (visible bottom) at 30 micron and secondary 2 micron fuel filter. A lot of the aftermarket (not CAT brand) secondary filters are 5 micron like you purchased and commonally used but cause shorter injector life if you use poor quality fuel.
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Also being somewhat of a mechanic, the problem seems to be heat related because of the not starting until time had passed. In effect, cooling down. In the gas world, general motors had a problem with the starter solenoid getting too hot by the exhaust manifold causing it to sieze and not operate until it had cooled down. I know you said the starter worked just fine, Just follow my train of thought. When you shut the engine down, it releases a fuel shutoff solenoid. Then engine perks or for a short time actually gets hotter as the coolant flow stops and the residual heat builds up. Could this cause the fuel shut off solenoid to sieze and not open up until it had a chance to cool down? Just another idea to work with. What was your engine temp when you shut it down and or does it run elevated more than normal or did you just pull a real hard grade before shutting down for fuel?
I don't know if this is possible with a diesel engine but maybe!!!
Arden Smith
98 Monterey
300 Cat
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Arden, thanks for the new idea. I just got the coach back from Pacific Power Products in Ridgefield, WA last week after it had been there for 3 weeks. They repalced the fuel filters and said there was NO algea in the fuel system. There were also no active or stored engine codes so they were stumped as to where to look for the starting issue.
When we stopped for fuel it was after about 1.5 hours of driving on OK roads, no significant grades. We stopped about 15 minutes earlier and shut down to unhook the toad as it is a little tight getting it through the gas island. After disconnecting, it started right up and driven less than 10 minutes to the station where I filled up.
The only odd thing I noticed was the fuel filler cap sucking air as I removed it. When I tried to start post fill up, the noises the engine made were "normal" as far as I could tell. It just seemed that it would not fire. Battery voltage was greater than 13 per the gauge, I tried tying in the other battery to no avail. After I called the Insurance company for the tow, I tried again. At this point the coach had sat about 25 minutes. Same as before. When the wrecker showed up I tried one more time and it fired up as soon as I hit the starter.
We have had no issues since and this has been the only occurence.
Thanks to everyone for their input so far. Please keep those ideas coming.
Thanks, Steve
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If the fuel tank is sucking air when the fuel cap is removed then you have a vacuum being created by the lack of air replacing the fuel being used. Eventually the vacuum will be so great the fuel pump cannot overcome it and the engine refuses to run from the lack of fuel. If I were you I would be investigating the fuel tank vent for an obstruction. I know you have been actively chasing this problem so hope this will solve the delima. GOOD LUCK!
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Strange about the vac build-up. I know our 06 has an overflow tube on top of the tank because I experienced an over-flow/top-off once. What I don't know if that tube is open both ways or has a one way check valve allowing out flow but not in. I've heard of people drilling holes in the fuel cap but I won't recommend that. Also I looked thru my operators manual and couldn't find and reads about venting. When in doubt how about a call over to Bend.
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At this point I would let it go. Too much water under the bridge to ever know. Just put a little extra time in your calender in case it happens again. Remember the number of times you tried to start it and how much time elapsed then duplicate that.
If it ever does happen again try cracking open a bleed plug on the fuel pump and see what comes out as you crank. Also consider calling a service truck rather than a tow truck.
Bruce
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Fuel tanks are vented as mentioned above and you may have a clogged vent which would allow a vacuum to cause the fuel starvation similar to a clogged fuel filter. You may want to check the tank vent or if it happens again and you remove the fuel cap and your engine starts you will know the problem and what to do to fix it.
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Not familiar with the venting system on your rig and if this makes sense or not:
Problems on our boat with dual engines shutting down, thought I had a clogged filter.
Would change it and the boat would run again (must have been venting the system so
it would start). Happened again and it turned out to be mud daubers had plugged the
vent.