BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Michael Kauffman on January 19, 2013, 11:41:00 PM
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[size=14][face=Arial]Hello All, I hope there's a bunch of you having fun in Q this winter. We're stuck up here in cold WA this year. Oh, my post question, sorry, I see that some of you have made the Hurricane/Espar hydronic conversion. I wanted to find out if you are satisfied with it, how much it cost you, and where you had it done. Also if I remember right you can run it off of park AC or diesel? I was trying to find Jim Rixon on the web but can't seem to come up with him searching by name. Anybody got a website for him?
Thanks, Mike Kauffman, Issaquah, WA[/face][/size]
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Found Him. I was looking up Rixon not Rixen, Dah!! :B
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I installed an Espar heater for Joe Hipp 2 years ago. Call him. Jim Rixen was very helpful. He has a good unit. It would be
worth while checking it out. Jim Rixen has always helped Beavers out.
Roy Mueller
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Since I also have a Hurricane, I guess I need to ask why convert the Hurricane to an Espar???
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Can I ask a more basic question, what's an Espar?
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Espar has a website. http://www.espar.com/index.html
The company makes heaters that work using diesel, gasoline, etc. Their hydronic heaters are much like the heating units in Hurricanes and Aqua Hots.
The videos on the website do not seem to work... for me at least. And there is no pricing I can find on the website.
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Is there some particular reason for converting from a Hurricane to the Espar unit?
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[size=14][face=Arial]My reasoning is this. I've had a lot of problems with the Hurricane. I've rebuilt it a couple of times. Not a big deal but annoying none the less. The previous owners didn't take real good care of it.
I stopped by Rixen's place a couple of years ago on the way up from AZ. I had bought the Patriot in Phoenix and was on the maiden voyage home everything stopped working, no heat, no hot water. I stopped at Jim's and he got it going. He showed me the Espar unit that he was installing. It fits in the same bay and has a lot of advantages. It's about half as quiet, fully self contained, and biggest of all, it has the capability to run all of the hydronics with park ac, something that we desire. And I've heard that they are virtually trouble free. I also know about the Comfort Hot that you can add to a Hurricane system @ about $800 and was looking to go that way but I like the idea of a whole new (modern) system that won't nickel and dime me forever.
Now I'm just trying to get some reviews from BAC members who have done this conversion. I remember that's it not cheap. That's why I didn't pop on it at that original stop at Rixen's.
Lastly, Jim M. where did you guy's buy the Espar unit that you installed (model?)? I might do it myself too.
Thanks for the insight, Mike ;) [/face][/size]
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We had our Hurricane serviced last year by ITR at their facility in Vancouver WA. We were very pleased with the work and the result. I know from having spoken with Kevin Lambert of ITR prior to our service appointment that they could have totally rebuilt my unit and would have given me a "new product" warranty for an investment of ~$2.2k. He didn't think we needed such an extensive overhaul so we ended up investing ~$500 and the system has worked perfectly since. Back in October when we were in Utah we had outside temps as low as ~28F and were able to stay toasty warm inside. Last week in TX the temps were in the low 40's and that wasn't even a challenge for the system.
It's my understanding that Rixen's is no longer handling ITR products so they have no incentive to get you to repair yours.
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OK, another question, what is the "comfort hot" for the Hurricane. I feel like my head is spinning, all this time I was revelling in the simplicity and low maintenance of the Hurricane system and now I'm hearing that I may have been delusional.
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Interesting! On my boat, I had a heater built by espar. In engine maintenance, I never spent anything close to what it cost me to service the Espar over the years, and I have twin diesels. Eventually I pulled the Espar out and gave it away for parts. I have considered a replacement by Hurricane!
Don't take this as a blanket condemnation of Espar, but in the marine market, Hurricane has a better reputation by a long stretch.
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Dick,
The "ComFort Hot" system is an auxiliary heating unit that is installed into the heating loop of the Hurricane system. It consist of a tank that
holds approximately 3 gallons of coolant and two 17 amp heating elements. The ComFort Hot system allows you to heat your coach only on 120V shore power when the outside temperatures are down to the low to mid twenties when on 50 amp power, and when on 30A power, you can be comfortable with the outside temperatures down into the mid to low 40s. I have one in my coach and I love it.
Gerald
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Gerald--
Who installed your ComFort Hot? We do burn a fair amount of diesel fuel over the winter and having a fully electric system (other than space heaters) would be nice. Is the price really as low as the $800 mentioned? Where is the storage tank located?
I assume that in order to run two 17A heaters you are doing something like tapping into the A/C circuits that aren't used in cold weather? There's no way I could come up with >30A of available service any other way. I've already tapped my washer-dryer circuit so I can run 3 major cooking appliances at the same time! ;D
Joel
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I also would be interested in where the unit is located as it would be a nice upgrade to the Hurricane. 2 elements are nice but I got the impression it's set up to be either both, one, or none which would make a lot of sense.
Does ITR sell these??? Or someone else as I would love to download the install manual and see what it entails. I'm thinking in the water bay would be nice as it's a short wire run to the distribution panel in the closet and should be easy to tap into the circulation loop.
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Joel & Dick,
I installed the Comfort Hot system in my coach. My Marquis had an unused breaker and I replaced another single breaker with a double breaker to give me two open breakers to run the system. I mounted the unit on the basement wall next to the Hurricane compartment. This made for a short run to detour the Hurricane heating loop through the Comfort Hot unit. I ran the 12 gauge 120V wiring between the rear closet and rear cap down to the frame rail. I then ran the wiring inside the frame, above the holding tanks, and through the basement until I reached the front basement wall where I then ran over to the Comfort Hot unit.
The Comfort Hot unit is designed and manufactured by Rixen Enterprises, located in Portland Oregon. Jim Rixen, the owner and former Hurricane Distributor, can install the unit for you if you wish. Jim Rixen is the distributor who sold the Hurricane heaters to Beaver and Country Coach. The wiring method that Jim uses is to tie the Comfort Hot system to the A/C breakers by using a switch where either the A/C or the Comfort Hot system can run, but not both at the same time.
Gerald
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I am starting to like it. Does it tie into the Hurrican brain box for access to thermostat and circulation pump control?? I assume there is some control to select electric vs diesel or both.
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Dick,
You will have to wire in one relay that turns on the circulation pump when the thermostats call for heat. There are no other changes that are necessary to the Hurricane system. The Comfort Hot heating elements are controlled by breakers or you can wire in a high amperage switch. If you want the diesel burner to run also, you just turn it on just like now.
If the diesel burner and the Comfort Hot elements are both running at the same time, the diesel burner is set to heat to a higher temperature so the Comfort Hot thermostats will cut off the elements unless it is very cold and the extra heating capacity is needed. Basically the Comfort Hot works like an electric hot water heater except that it is keeping a tank of the Hurricane fluid hot instead of fresh water.
Gerald
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Gerald--
Do you have an idea what Rixen's charges for this mod?
Joel
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Joel,
No I do not, but you can call him (800-925-6260) and he will probably know the price from memory because he has installed so many of these units on Beavers, especially Patriots.
Gerald
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I was just visiting my coach in the shop and they happened to have a brochure from Rixen lying on a counter.
Here are the specs:
2.5 gpm min flow
welded Al tank
capacity - 4.8 gallons
4000 W @32 Amps
14,000 btu
12.75 H X 21" L X 6.35" D.
Wt. 10 lbs
There are 4 mounting tabs, 2 on each side top and bottom so it look likes it's intended to be mounted on a vertical surface.
I'm certainly going to visit them when we're in OR for the summer. It gets cold enough here and often enough that this would be a boon while parked alongside the house. I've already gone through a significant amount of diesel and I'm installing a 50 RV outlet next week.
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It is probably worth noting that with a 32A draw at 120V the system output is 3840 watts which is 13,100 BTU/hr. The Hurriance's oil burner I believe is rated at 45,000 BTU/hr with a probable efficiency of ~70% which would give an effective heating capacity of ~31,500 BTU/hr. The efficiency of the electrically heated system can be assumed to be 100% because the heating elements are immersed in the fluid.
I'm not criticizing but that does mean that the electric system, on its own, is roughly 41% of the heating capacity of the Hurricane. In ~50 degree weather this should be sufficient, but I doubt it can replace the oil burner entirely at temps much below that. For us in south TX, I expect we could reduce our fuel usage by at least 50% since are temps are largely in the 40-50 range at night.
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Joel,
The Comfort Hot unit does not replace the Hurricane in really cold weather, however on 50 amps (both elements running) I have been in temperatures in the low 30s at night where it keep my coach comfortable (high 60s) without the diesel burner on. When on 30 amp service (only one element running) the unit will keep you comfortable down to the 45 to 50 degree range. I think that one difference between the Comfort Hot system and the diesel burner is that the elements in the Comfort Hot unit stay on continuously when the you are heating the coach in cold weather and the diesel burner cycles because the burner can produce more heat than the system can deliver into the coach.
In temperatures down into the mid 20s and lower, the diesel burner will have to be running to maintain a comfortable temperature in the coach. But if you are just interested in freeze protection, I think that the Comfort Hot system on 50 amp service will provide that down to zero or slightly below. One thing to note is that the temperatures that I am using are without high winds. High winds make the coach harder to heat so the outside temperatures will need to be higher to get the same results.
Gerald
Gerald
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I think that, since I already own a pair of Vornado heaters, a lot cheaper solution is to feed a heavy duty extension cord through the driver's window and connect it directly to the campground utility pedestal. I already have an Ethernet cable coming through the window for my DSL and I used some packing tape to make the slightly open window weather-tight. One 1800 watt heater would do a lot to reduce diesel fuel consumption and not having to worry about tripping breakers in the coach would eliminate nuisance issues. The heaters are small enough that one would easily fit under the dash on the driver's side. Because the Vornado's have such a low temperature output they are safer to use in small spaces than are many other types.
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[size=14]Well I finally bit the bullet and bought a Comfort Hot. I had to put in the in-line model. I used the bay wall next the the Hurricane. I ran the out hose on the pump to the in port on the Comfort Hot tank and tied the out port back to the line that used to go the the pump. I tied into the transfer switch box for power. The only other thing that you do is hook a relay set-up to the Hurricane box. It works great!! It was 27 here last night. I set the heater stats to 60 in the coach. When I went out this morn it was 60 in the coach. It works great! Yea!![/size]
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Has anyone used the Espar system as a replacement for an Aqua-Hot? According to BCS the cost to replace my trashed unit with a rebuilt is close to 10k. I would be happy to find a 2k replacement. I would be even happier to have hot water and heat. It's chilly here in Bend.
Mike
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[size=14]Hey Mike, I think that the Espar starts around $5K. Call Jim Rixen.
http://www.rixens.com/ :)[/size]