BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Dave Cunningham on March 11, 2013, 11:31:54 PM
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I am having problems with the IDS levelling system on my '03 Marquis. The system was functioning fine, until a couple of weeks ago. Then it seemed that the controller started to malfunction. The system power light would come on and it would go through its diagnostic mode, but then nothing would happen. After talking to Steve, at Beaver Coach in Bend, he suggested replacing the control panel. So I ordered one from them at $ 300.00. Got it today, plugged it in, and the system started to work properly in auto mode. But timed out before leveling the coach completely. So reading the directions in the manual, I tried using the ''semi'' mode. Got to the point where the rear jacks light was flashing, telling me to press until it goes out. Kept pressing for quite a while. I could hear the pump, but the light never went out. Then smoke started coming out of the console, where the controller is mounted. So I removed the controller, and there does not seem to be anything burnt on the board. Now nothing works. The coach is sitting there with the rear jacks extended, with no way to retract them.
I know these systems have been problematic, and I think Beaver Coach usually changes the control system to a completely manual setup. Now I can't even move it without figuring something out.
Just wondering if anyone may have gone through a similar situation before. I don't really want to have to take it all the way back to Bend to get it fixed, as I was just there about a month ago.
Thanks,
Dave
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Dave,
Bend may warranty the new board. You should not be able to cause it to fail by using a mode that is available by the operation manual. It would seem to me that you need to get another board to be functional again. That being said, if you get a new board, the design may be a marginal design and if you go to manual or semi mode I would use shorter durations of pressing the controller buttons with long pauses and give time to allow the ICs to cool.
Good luck with this. I have the same system and have been lucky enough to have not had a fail. It is expensive, but air leveling conversion is probably the long term answer given that system is supported and well designed by HWH. It has to be converted at the factory.
Later Ed
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Thanks Ed,
I now have discovered why I have no power at the controller. When I went to check the breaker, I found out that I now have no power anywhere in the electrical bay. No idea what I've done now.
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This may actually be good news and it sounds like you could use some. It is possible that the leveling system was pulling enough current that something fused and the board may possibly still be good. In the electrical bay there are usually two positive copper busses side by side. The one on the left has a large red lead feeding it, that first goes to a solenoid lug just below the two copper busses. Measure there with a meter and see if you have 12V on the largest wire on the solenoid. If you do not, go back to the battery compartment and there should be several large fuses. Measure on both sides of that fuse to ground. If one side has no voltage it is blown and needs to be replaced. If there is voltage at the big red cable on the solenoid lug but not on the left buss there is a short, approx 8GA wire, leading from the same solenoid lug that the largest wire is on, that travels to the left buss. That wire could have fused. The right copper buss will not have power unless the ignition is on. The fuses in the back battery compartment should be above the batteries on a flat panel area. The one for chassis is the one you are looking for. I am explaining this for a 2002 Marquis panel and hoping you have the same configuration. Where the black heatsink is below my copper busses, is where the solenoid is that I am referring to. I have converted mine to a solid state version. Yours will be a round metal can with lugs.
Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Dave,
When you decide to use semi or or some form of manual mode you need to take into account that the hydraulic cylinders have limited travel. The blinking means you are not level but it does not mean that you can be level. What may have happened here is by holding down the button you were running the pump continuously against the load of a fully extended cylinder. The load of extendedly holding down the button also seemed to overheat the circuit board, but it may still be good. With that kind of physical load, it would have created a severe electrical load which fused something in the system. Better to touch those buttons for a few seconds at a time, and verify that the coach is still responding by continuing to level. When you reach end of travel, usually the tone of the pumping system changes due to a heavier load, and it is time to stop using that button. Not always easy to hear.
I have had a time out before and I have sometimes had better luck giving the system another chance by going through the process again. Sometimes when it is just too severe a slope, the time out is where you leave the coach. Your options are to drive up on some suitable blocks to help with leveling or move to another campsite.....I like the other campsite if possible.
If you find a fuse in the battery compartment that is open, shut off the battery switch that feeds it. Replace it and then momentarily turn the battery swich on while measuring with a meter at the fuse. If you see less than 12V you may still have a heavy electrical load (short somewhere or pump motor still on) and need to resolve that before leaving the switch on. If the voltage is normal, 12.6V to 13.8V and all seems well, then see if the coach is restored to normal power in the electrical bay. Dave, I do not have any idea what you are comfortable with this or if you even have a meter with you. If this is all Greek to you then certainly get someone out there who is versed in diagnosing electrical systems on RVs. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Ed,
Judging by some of the advise I have seen you leave for myself and others, I would say that you are a little ahead of me in the electrical knowledge department , but I do understand the basics . And after thinking about it last night, I was coming to the same conclusions, I didn't spend much time diagnosing before i had to leave the coach yesterday, but I did check for voltage at the positive terminal of the solenoid that supplies thr left hand buss bar, and there was nothing there. Then I checked in the battery compartment at the main solenoid there, and there was power, and that is as far as I got. Thanks for the location of those fuses, I am going to start there today , and pray that I haven't damaged the board. I think my timing out problem may be related to the pump, it does not seem torun fast enough, I wonder if they are rebuildable ? There is almost no reason for the system to time out as the coach was sitting very close to level already.
Dave
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Dave,
If the system is repeatedly timing out then something is wrong. I would not assume the pump, there could also be a bad ground or 12V connection that is not supplying enough current at voltage to the pump motor. There is also an electrical solenoid as part of that system that runs the pump motor that could have damaged/marginal internal contacts. I would make sure all the visible contacts were clean and good before heading for the pump. I think that system is powered by the chassis battery bank and if you had weak batteries, terminal corrosion, or not fully charged ones, that would have an affect on the pump capacity to provide the required fluid drive within the timing window. If the pump is not running at speed it is probably not the pump but the speed of the motor that drives it. If you get it to run again you could watch the current readout leds on the charger/inverter panel and see if you are getting a large display change for current with the leveling pump running. If you have an echo charger you would see maybe a 10amp increase if the leveling system runs off the chassis batteries. If you see a 40 -80 amp or more load then it runs off of the house battery system. I do not know what the terminals of the motor would read under load. You may be able to put some temporary leads on them and remotely measure while not being under the coach what the voltage drops to under load. I would think any value less than 10.5V would be suspect. On my coach I can lift an entry step to get to the pump, not sure on yours.
Later Ed
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Dave, As an owner of a coach with the IDS system, I learned the HARD and Expensive way, to NOT to attempt to level if your batteries are not FULLY charged, as low voltage will burn up the pump VERY QUICKLY. This is probably NOT your priblem at this time, but just for further info. Good Luck!!! Henry
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thanks guys I am working on it right now, went straight to those fuses this morning and sure enough the chassis ANL 250 fuse was blown , just got back from locating one at a car audio shop, and replaced it , hoping the control panel might be still good, no luck, called Larry at Beaver Coach and told him what happened, and believe it or not , he is sending me another one for free, I guess that $4 grand I spent last month bought me some clout. Anyway , thanks for the location of the pump Ed I am heading back out there to start checking connections.
By the way Ken at Beaver Coach said that they can do their conversion to a manual levelling system on the IDS for around $ 1000.00 rather than having to spend $4 thousand -plus for the air levelling, if it got to that point.
Dave
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Great news Dave, if you go manual you are responsible to not torque the frame, which mean you go in little steps per ram and simulate what the system was doing....not a problem just something you need to do. Keep us posted... 250 amps was a lot of current. Make sure all is well.
Later Ed
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Ed, since last posting ,I checked the breaker that supplies the levelling system , and there was power there, found the supply wire to the panel and there was power there also, so I decided to try the controller one more time and sure enough it fired up, then I tried the manual retract button, as the rear of the coach is still jacked up and it emediately blew the main fuse by the batteries again, so just as an experiment, I plugged in my old control panel and it fied up as well, after the diagnostic process I just pressed the auto button once, and same thing blew the main fuse ( lucky I bought the five pack. They had there ) I am thinking I killed the pump by pressing that button too long, I located the pump under the stairs, but did not have time left to run any tests on it, like you say it is probably the motor that runs the pump that is the problem , I guess the first step would be to jump the solenoid to see if it still runs.
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Dave,
I believe the motor has failed and whenever power is being supplied to it the draw is over 250 amps. Unless you can find a visible short on a lug or wire on the exterior or burned up wire covering shorting to ground or a solenoid at the pump is shorted to ground you will have to deal with the pump motor. I would not jump the solenoid given you will have a burst of current that can be in excess of 250 amps momentarily. The fact that the pump did not take off would indicate a short. I think the solenoid is on the motor housing. That would mean the leads up to the pump are fine. Not much beyond the solenoid but the motor....George may have information on what is need and how to best handle the pump issue.
Later Ed
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I think your right Ed, I can't believe that in semi mode they tell you to press the blinking button until it goes out, when obviously there is no limit switch to stop the pump when fully extended, the pump in my coach is very hardto hear. Oh well tomorrow I will don the nitrile gloves and get under there, and start ripping it apart.
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May the force be with you.....If it is any consolation, the fact that you were timing out leveling, may have mean't the motor was not putting out the HP it should have been anyway and it was on its way out. You just helped it not die a slow death.....
Later Ed
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I tend to agree with Ed, that the pump motor is the problem. They fixed me up @ BCS in Bend with a new motor installation. They are very helpful when you need questions answered. Henry
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Well, I got under there today, and sure enough the first thing I see is the positive lead from the solenoid completely fried and grounded to the housing. I separated it all and tried the pump again. Blew another fuse, motor is completely shot. So I pulled the pump out. Easy job literally took me about 20 minutes. Headed down to my local automotive electrical supplier. They got on the phone, and tomorrow morning I will have the exact replacement motor, ready to install. My cost $225.00. Not as bad as I thought it would be. Hopefully I can just bolt everything back together and it will work properly. Thanks for your help Ed, you saved me some time by pointing me in the right direction. Once this is figured out, I think I am downtown, just the ice maker to fix.
Dave
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Great news Dave. When you get the motor installed and it works, please post who the source was and the particulars about the motor that was ordered. Over time we might have to retrace your steps.
I have not had to do that job. Just out of curiosity, did you have to remove the whole assembly from under the coach, or could you pull the motor from the mounted assembly and leave the pump there? Perhaps a photo of the assembly without the motor?
Later Ed
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Ed,
I was planning on taking some pictures tomorrow before I put everything back together, as I mentioned, pulling the entire pump/motor assembly is a piece of cake , the whole thing is held on by to 1/2" bolts through the bottom of the pump, then it's just the positive and ground leads with one 12volt wire for the solonoid. You would not want to take the motor off the pump under the coach, it's too easy to pull the whole thing out.
I"ll post some pictures tomorrow.
Dave
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Ed,
guess what I have done now, got the new motor, installed it this morning, but when I went to hook up the two hydraulic lines, I realized that being the genus that I am , I forgot to mark them, so I hooked them up the way that they looked like they should go and decided to give the controller a try, the new pump works awesome, it immediately jacked the drivers side of the coach straight to the moon,when I hit the retract button so I figured I must have them hooked up backwards, changed them around and now they won't come down. Called Ken at Beaver Coach, who by the way has been reading this thread, and he is going to send me a schematic of the system. on the manifold there is a T and a P marked beside each respective line, on the pump there is one fitting on the top, and one on the side, I would think that if I have it hooked up right now, that it should open up the proper valving and retract the jacks.
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while I am waiting for Ken to send through the schematics, I thought I would post the pictures of the new motor ect.
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Once you know that the hydraulic lines are correct you would be back to the controller again if all is not well. One added thought, is there a rotation noted on the old and new motor. They are series wound usually and are directional with current flow and build configuration. You should check and be sure that the rotation is the same.
Sometimes dropping all 12v power (battery switches) for 30 seconds can reset the circuits in the boards in case something is latched up in the wrong mode from the voltage drops from an overcurrent conditions. I suspect that the battery switches have been off enough where that is not an possibility as to the cause...
Later Ed
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Got the schematics from Ken, they show the electrical. Layout of the system, but I can't figure out why the jacks won't come down. Asked ken to get Steve to call me he knows these systems inside and out , but never heard from him, I need to get this figured out tomorrow, as we are supposed to be heading out for a trip, all I can think of doing is finding the hydraulic lines to the retract side of the cylinders and disconnecting them from the manifold so they will release, and then dropping the air to get them in as far as they will go. Maybe I can get hold of Stone tomorrow and find out if I have the lines routed properly, can't believe I didn't mark the lines when I pulled them off, I am usually more careful than that. *^+#£€>¥<€}^#^
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Dave,
In the heat of battle things get forgotten.... I know little about the hydraulics and the solenoid systems that drive the ram extend vs retract. Seems like BCS is the best help here. Certainly they understand you cannot move the coach as is. Perhaps an offer to Ken that you want to hire Steve for an hour or so at the shop rate to see if you can trouble shoot this over the phone with him. They are good folks there but pulling Steve from the shop for more than what could be a short period of time may need something worked out in advance. Just thinking fair options for you and BCS...
Later Ed
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Steve,
One more thing. I just noticed the arrow on the blue label of the old motor. That should be roatation. Is there a way to verify the new motor rotation is the same with a phone call to Warden or Stone?
Later Ed
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Thanks Ed, I actually did offer to pay for Steve's diagnostic time on the phone, but still haven't heard from him, that is a good point on the motor rotation, I will check that this morning, I found a diagram on the net last night that shows the P and the T that I spoke of earlier, they simply mean pump and tank, so I think I will pull the lines off and fire up the pump for a half sec, see which way it flows and put it together. I think I may have to locate the retraction lines from the two cylinders an disconnect them to drain the cylinders down. Then I can start fresh from the beginning.
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I've done it! Finally and end to the saga, called Stone , they schooled me on the flow of the pump , went and checked and I had it right the first time, so I reversed the hoses and crossed my fingers as I gave it one more try and sure enough the jacks retracted, so I turned the system on and hit the auto button went outside and gazed in awe as it levelled itself, then I did it twice more just for fun. not sure why it didn't work when I first hooked it up, don't care. not sure why the controllers seemed to malfunction, don't care, on to fixing the ice maker .
the important points to note , if anyone ever refers back to this are the part number for the motor, and the letter p stand for pump the letter t stands for tank.Also the fitting on the side of the pump body is the pressure port and the one on the top is the tank return I am going to try to attach the link to the IDS schematics that Ken sent me , they are not available on the internet , so they might be good to add to the coach assist section.
just tried that can't seem to attach it, I 'll email it to the appropriate person
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I just imagine, David, when you get that ice maker fixed and cranking out ice, then you will make a nice, stiff drink. After all this fun you have had, you may need one... or several. Soon... people will be paying you for consulting time on the phone. Do you do retainers?
Also, what do the weeping hole covers look like on your 2003 Marquis? I have a few missing and ordered replacements from BCS in Bend. Between the parts guy, Mike, and my errors in determining the correct replacements, I got none that would fit. My weeping hole covers are square cornered - all four sides and ends. They look like a "long, square sausage" as opposed to a long, round sausage. All the weeping holes, left side and right side, on every window are the same dimensions... EXCEPT the ONE entry door weeping hole that is shorter in length. Each weeping hole consists of two in-line slits which are covered by one weeping hole cover.
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David.
Congratuations, glad you reached the end of your journey on this one. I'm sure what you have learned here will help others including myself. I for one will be happy to see the schematics on coach assist. Enjoy your trip. There is a lot to learn in maintaing these coaches and for those of us far from Bend the forum is our best shot at collectively figuiring things out...
Later Ed
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Hey thanks for your replys , even without the ice maker working I have been celebrating all afternoon. These coaches are complicated sometimes and if you don't have unlimited funds , you need to work on them yourself sometimes, I have had eight of them now and I am no Ed Buker or Gerald Ferris ,but I have learned alot over the last three years,
David , funny you ask about the window vents, when I was at bcs ,I bought all new ones for my coach and they are totally different from the ones that I know you are talking about, the old square ones suck, they fall off the minute you try to wash the coach, these new ones are rounded, and conformed to fit the window moulding , other than the short one you mentioned on the passenger side , I have been very impressed with them so far, almost no wind noise, and they are quite secure .
As for the ice maker , ranit through the tests I found online and the motor is done, ordered one from eBay for $115.00 plus shipping.
Thought I was done but remembered that I needed a control board for the onan, so I. Ordered that too, for the low, low price of $1000.00 , I've actually paid less than that for a complete generator before, oh well that's motor homing
If you want to play you have to pay.
Dave
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Ed,
Where are you located , ken from BCS, told me that you bought your 02 from them , he had been following our thread, and mentioned that you were a former engineer , and a great guy to have as a consultant.
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Dave,
Ken was right, I did buy my 02 from Ty up in Bend and I have the upmost respect for that crew and the collective skills that they have. I was an engineer at one time, now retired, and living in coastal AL right near Pensacola FL. I wish Bend was closer at times when I get myself in trouble on my coach :-) We are very lucky as Beaver owners to still have factory folks on the job at BCS.
The real forum knowledge base and wisdom holder on these coaches is Gerald. He is remarkable with the excellence of his advice and probably even better with tools in his hands but I have never had the luck to have witnessed that. He can probably get something apart without rapping his knuckles like I do :-)
I have some knowledge of the electrical end of things and I enjoy projects and making improvements but there are whole regions of this coach that are still mysteries to me that I'm reluctant to poke very far into with the skills that I have.
It was good to see you have a victory and share what you have learned.
Later Ed
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David - The weeping hole covers I received from BCS didn't work. And yes, these were the newer streamlined style, as opposed to the older box-like style. The little prongs that hold the covers on were positioned correctly for the weeping hole dimensions, but the prongs were not long enough to lock the covers into place. I could get the covers into position and they would hold on, but all I had to do was give an easy finger push and off they would go. Like I said, the prongs were not long enough to penetrate into the hole and lock into place. There'e no way they would have held on in the wind driving down the road and highway speeds.
Soooo... I'm waiting for Mike in parts to find the correct covers to fit my coach, and get back to me. Did you keep your old box-like covers?
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David,
Make sure that you are installing them on their respective , right side of the coach, they are directional, and I put a couple on the wrong way, and wondered why they didn't fitproperly, maybe yours are different , but I can' imagine them making more than one type, and your window frames are most certainly the same as mine.
I didn't keep my old ones because they were all missing.
I was amazed at what a difference those things make for wind noise, I have never really worried about them before , but once I installed them, what I thought was a leaking windshield seal, was about 90% gone.
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David - As I said, these new ones are streamlined, so the end pointing forward does not having an opening, but the end pointing backward is open - right? And on the underside they are labeled with an R and L. I just tried mounting one again. I can barely get them into the slits... and the rear prong does not hold tightly thus allowing me to, in my opinion, too easily remove it. I think I will just sit tight and let the issue age for a week or so... to think about it before doing something silly. It seems doing things too quickly just adds to problems and cost. Yes, I have been reading your posts... every one with great excitement. lol
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Hey David , I just got back from working on the Moho, and I had a look at those things while I was there, they seem to be quite secure, way better than the old style anyway. I just can't understand why yours would be different, you could always glue them on.
Dave
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"glue them on" Ha!
SOme misguided PO used up a tube of silicone on those little covers on my coach. Another example of where silicone should never be used on a Motorhome! (or anywhere else outdoors).