BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Bill Jourdain on April 24, 2013, 10:02:52 PM
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I went to take a look at our 2002 Monterey in storage (it is under cover) and found what I assume is the symptom of a water leak. On the passenger side wall about half way between the recliner and the dining table, there is a seam in the wall covering that is covered by a small piece of trim. When I entered the coach, I noticed that this trim piece was on the floor and the seam exposed (the trim had been glued). Upon closer inspection, it was obvious that this is a place where two pieces of "wall board" come together. On the side toward the dining table, the wall was slightly bulging (about half way down the wall) but it did not feel wet. Clearly, the bulging at this seam ejected the trim piece onto the floor.
I assume that I have a leak that has caused water to flow between the interior wall and exterior skin, although I never noticed any signs of this when we traveled or camped in the rain. Our last trip was in February and we did drive in the rain.
I have a couple of questions. Realizing that water may end up far and away from where it started, can anyone offer an educated guess as to the best place for me to look to start my search for the origin of this leak. I live in north Georgia and have no plans to travel to Bend, where it seems most of the good repairs are done, so can anyone suggest a repair facility other than CW? Would Alliance in Wildwood be the best for this? They are about 7 hours south of me, but I would not mind the trip to have this repaired correctly.
Any other helpful opinions or advice would be appreciated. By the way, I am not opposed to attempting to repair this myself, but water intrusion and damage is nothing to trifle with in my opinion and I'm not sure I would do an adequate job.
Thanks. This forum has been great for many other issues and has made being a Beaver owner a genuine pleasure.
Bill
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Bill,
The Girard awning where it is attached to the coach side is a good place to start. Also, check the screws under the vinyl trim between the roof radius and the side of the coach. Make sure they are tight and that none are rusted. You shouldn't be getting any water in there if the trim is in good shape. The windows are the final place to check. Make sure the sealant around the top of the windows is in good shape. The windows also have sealant between the frame and the side of the coach so the chance of leaks there is fairly low.
Good Luck, Steve
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Bill, in addition to Steve's excellent suggestions, I have a couple more:
The "C" channel that holds the vinyl trim Steve mentioned is supposed to be sealed between its upper edge and the roof radius. Check that the sealant has not pulled away from the aluminum, which will allow water intrusion behind the trim and subsequently into the sidewall. It's hard to see. Try to slip an Exacto blade between the aluminum and the sealant.
Also, the vinyl trim does not make a water-tight seal with its "C" channel. In their infinite wisdom, Beaver chose to seal the open ends of the cavity behind the vinyl so that any water that leaks in throughout the length of the trim gradually accumulates inside until it gets to the level of the screws, which will then rust and leak, particularly if they have not been sealed properly. Anyone who doubts this, I have a piece of the old vinyl that came off our Patriot. The inside is moldy and slimy due to water being held there by the sealed ends.
We had massive leaks in the forward right side ceiling/sidewall area until I resealed the aluminum trim, removed and resealed/replaced (with S/S) the old screws holding the "C" channel on, and finally replaced the vinyl, leaving the ends open so that the cavity behind it can have airflow through it in order to dry. Sorta like the way rocker panels in cars are kept dry by air flowing through them.
Hope this helps
Andy
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Bill, Andy:
I am on the hunt for the cause of a similar bulge in the wall in roughly the same place. I suspect the screws behind the channel that covers the roof to side joint. I had a similar problem above the drivers side window, that eventually settled to a trickle when I recaulked a gap between the channel and the fibreglass where the channel was sitting proud of the roof panel. That trickle has so far defied all of my attempts to stop it, so the last place to look seems to be the screws.
On the passenger side that solution is less intuitive, since any water coming in at that location will have to get past the Girard awning before descending to where the wall shows a bulge. On close inspection, the awning attachment seems tight, so is not a viable suspect. As I will be replacing the wall covering in the course of an interior upgrade, I will dig into the bulge and see if that leads to more of a solution.
Andy: What was your source for a replacement plastic insert? Mine appears to be continuous for about 35 feet on each side of the coach. There is a second stripe of the same stuff at the bottom of the fibregalss sides. Both have discoloured badly and cleaning with Toluene only gets part of it clean.
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All of our leak problems on the passenger side of our coach have come from the Girard awning. In the early models they were VERY poorly installed (the actual units themselves, not just the sealant) and are no fun to fix. We had to have ours removed (once) and completely re-sealed (twice) and it still leaks. In order to do this the upper cabinets on that side need to be removed and the fridge pulled out, in order to get to the bolts. Very frustrating.
I wish you the best of luck!
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Carol,
I agree. I ran a bead of sealant along the complete junction where the awning meets the coach side. I also put sealant on each of the rivet heads. That has sealed mine. If I have more problems I may need to remove and reseal it (yuk).
Steve
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Steve: Good to know that you had success by sealing the Girard to the wall. I have been trying to get all of the clear silicone that some PO (previous owner) used out of the grooves in the Girard, without much success. You will know from my previous rants on this board that I am no fan of silicone sealers. I haven't been able to find a drawing of the Girard that shows which, if any, of those grooves might leak. The PO apparently took the view that if you fill every one with sealer you might win. I suspect only the top and bottom edges need any attention, along with the rivets.
Above my drivers side window I have sealed the gutter to the cap and, when that didn't stop the leak, I took off the cover over that piece of the cap/wall joint above the window and sealed that. My leak there is down from a deluge to a few drips, so there is still some work to do. I now suspect the screws behind the plastic, so am looking for a source of new plastic before I rip the existing one apart.
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Keith,
The silicon alternatives I've seen are all white or black in color. Do you have a clear one to recommend?
Steve
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Steve,
The best alternative that I have found to the much hated silicone sealers that some people use is Lexel. It adheres much better than silicone, is perfectly clear, and is paintable. It can be found at most Ace Hardware Stores.
Gerald
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Steve: I will try Gerald's suggestion if I ever see it. Otherwise, any good marine sealer, so long as you read the label and get the kind you need for the application. I personally like Sikaflex brand and 3M. I have used both on my boat for years and am very happy with the results. Those don't come in clear, but I don't mind white or black, depending on the location.
Silicones have long been banned from my boat and I am trying to get rid of silicones whenever I find some on the Beaver. Various POs have loaded it up with clear silicone, every bit of which has failed.
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Gerald, Keith,
Thx for the info. I've got an ACE just up the street from the house. It will give me something to do this summer :)
Steve
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I'll second Gerald's suggestion. Got a tube of Lexel at a local Ace a couple years ago, and it does behave better than silicone, although it looks similar.
Joel
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Keith
Home Hardware carries Lexel in Canada
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Thx Ron. I have a nearby Home hardware in Ganges, which I will check.
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I know that the Girard awning mounting in these coaches has been leak prone. I know that removing the awning, cabinets, and resealing the recess box and reassembling everything is a huge project. My coach has had no leaks on the passenger side and I credit this "flashing" job that was already done on this coach before I bought it. It is some form of rubber strip, perhaps some roofing membrane material, that probably has been bedded in clear Lexel. It has been on the coach for the four years I have owned it and all I have done is use some 303 Protectant on the rubber once a year. The front edge and back edge is also sealed with the same clear sealant. You cannot see the rubber flashing unless you are on the coach roof. The sealant is lapped over the rubber on the top edge and the bottom. It is neat enough where they probably taped it off before they ran the sealant.
I do not know who did the work but I would certainly try this approach before I would spend the time or money on the box sealing version of the fix. Not much to lose....
Later Ed
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Ed,
Thx, that sure looks like a pretty permanent fix assuming one maintains the membrane.
Steve
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Sorry to be tardy in reponding, Keith. Been outta town.
The vinyl insert is a common insert found on many RVs. It's available in rolls from CW. I bought a 100ft roll to do both sides of the Beaver. It's a little tricky to insert at first because you have to induce a "bulge" in the flat vinyl as it comes from the roll by partially folding it lengthwise. The trick is then to insert the top edge in the upper "C" channel edge for 6 inches or so, then run a screwdriver along the bottom edge, capturing the lower edge of the vinyl, popping it into the lower "C" channel edge. Do 6-10 inches then repeat. After a while you get the hang of it and it goes pretty fast.
And please do leave the front and rear ends open.
HTH
Andy
Bill, Andy:
I am on the hunt for the cause of a similar bulge in the wall in roughly the same place. I suspect the screws behind the channel that covers the roof to side joint. I had a similar problem above the drivers side window, that eventually settled to a trickle when I recaulked a gap between the channel and the fibreglass where the channel was sitting proud of the roof panel. That trickle has so far defied all of my attempts to stop it, so the last place to look seems to be the screws.
On the passenger side that solution is less intuitive, since any water coming in at that location will have to get past the Girard awning before descending to where the wall shows a bulge. On close inspection, the awning attachment seems tight, so is not a viable suspect. As I will be replacing the wall covering in the course of an interior upgrade, I will dig into the bulge and see if that leads to more of a solution.
Andy: What was your source for a replacement plastic insert? Mine appears to be continuous for about 35 feet on each side of the coach. There is a second stripe of the same stuff at the bottom of the fibregalss sides. Both have discoloured badly and cleaning with Toluene only gets part of it clean.
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Thought I would re-visit this old thread, as I have started the redecoration needed before installing my newly fabricated valences.
At the driver's window, I pulled of some of the vinyl wallpaper that was loose, and behind it I found the wood paneling rotted and disintegrating. In one spot the corrosion of the aluminum surface of the structural grid had pushed the vinyl out over 1/2 inch, without breaking the surface. So far all I have accomplished is to fill a garbage can with the old vinyl and wood, getting the wall down to a fairly smooth, not quite uniform surface. Next step will be to go and buy some door skin so as to re-panel the whole area before painting. The window will need to come out at the time of putting in new paneling. The whole area will need to thoroughly dry out.
The rotting of the wood suggests a leak that has gone on for years at this location. No surprise, as this coach was kept in the desert, where it never rains, and from its condition when we bought, it appears to have had a covered parking spot when not in use. When it did get rained on, the PO had no incentive to spend a lot of time or money chasing any leaks, as things would dry and it would be a long time till the next rain.
Being from the wet coast, however, I need leaks taken care of, quickly and effectively. I believe I have this one under control, as you will see from earlier in this thread. Now the repairs.
I tried to get the cabinetry above the window away from the wall, but to no avail. There is just too much stuff that would need to be removed first, including a lot of necessary electrical stuff. So I will work around the cabinetry. I can get inside the cabinet that the inverter control and tank tender are in, and I can deal with the rest of that side from inside the TV cabinet. All of the paneling above the window is rotted. The rotten wood has turned black, and smells.
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More!
The bulge, as reported above by Bill Jourdain, in its incarnation in my Beaver, was right where the wall panelling transitions to carpeting, below the wall lamp that is between the dinette and the chair. Mine was not protruding far enough to knock the trim to the floor, as Bill reported, and my trim was screwed in, so could take a lot more deflection. In depth, mine was no more than 1/4 inch. So imagine my surprise, when I cut into this, to find that behind the impervious vinyl covering, was a space between the aluminum frame (aft side of the space) and the white styrofoam filler (forward side) of about 3 1/2 inches, going from just above the floor, to the bottom of the upper cabinets. In this space was a piece of finger jointed 2x2 that didn't appear to be attached to anything, but stood the full height, beside which was a piece of 3/4 plywood, edges towards me. Btween these bits of wood that didn't quite fill the space, nothing else. Both these bits of wood were completely rotted, top to bottom, as was the skin plywood on both the inside and outside of the aluminum frame. At the bottom it was so wet that I got splashed as I hacked away at the rot with a wide chisel. The inside skin is only doorskin, or equivalent, about 1/8" thick. The outside skin seems thicker, maybe 1/4". I scraped the rotten wood away, all the way to the inside of the fibreglass outer skin of the Coach.
Since the rot goes all the way up to the bottom of the cabinets,and all the way to the floor, there must have been water in this cavity for years. Big unanswered question, where is it leaking? I have had all of the windows out to fix wriggly seals, and have noted that around the window openings is in "as-new" condition, so I know that is not the source.
I pulled the forward half of the upper cabinets down and attacked the wall behind, only to find the back of the Girard awning, also in "as-new" condition. So if it isn't coming down behind the awning, or from the windows, where can it be coming from?
Our first trip, in March 2011, we lost a cover from the forward A/C, and got very wet in rains over the next two days, heading home. This water came down through the A/C and dripped on the carpet in the middle of the room. Is it also likely that water from the middle of the roof could get to the lower ie, past the awning, part of the wall?
I have kept a cover on the Coach since we got home, so no new water has been allowed in, and I had already sealed everything I could see needing it. I am now wondering if I should be removing the solar panels and the A/Cs and re-sealing them, as those are the only through the roof attachments that I can't see. All the ones I can see are good.
I still need to pull the vinyl strip out of the gutter and check the screws, but the pristine condition of the back of the awning suggests that all is well there.
????
I had to return to Coquitlam for a few days, but will be on a priority to get this issue resolved as soon as I return to Saltspring.
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Keith--
I had recently posted about what I found with respect to the vinyl strip and screw situation on my coach. My MH has what appears to have been a similar leak that previous owners (and I) had fought with only limited success. When I pulled off a section of the vinyl strip I could see extra screws that had been installed in a previous repair attempt. However, since those screws were just plain steel they had rusted through in the vicinity of area where the leak was. When I tried to tighten them they broke off (both originals and "newer" ones).
I then drilled new holes and used stainless screws to pull the gutter closer to the side wall. I could tell I was making the gap smaller because a small quantity of water oozed out when I tightened the new screws. After using a bead of clear caulk above the drip rail, we have since withstood a number of rainy days here on the "wet coast" without further evidence of leakage.
Even though the back of your Girard casing appears pristine, I would urge you to check out the vinyl strip above and near it. My leak, although apparently not as bad as yours, migrates a couple of feet laterally from where the water gets in. What probably makes mine easier to localize is the fact that our cloth wall covering which shows stains at the slightest evidence of water behind it. From your comments, I gather your wall coverings are vinyl which probably hide the presence of water un
Joel
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Joel:
Thanks for your thoughts.
I will be pulling off the vinyl insert and inspecting the attachment of the gutter. So far, my examination has not revealed any cracks in the caulking, and miraculously, there is no silicone used there, so no reason to suspect any problems. Behind the vinyl, however, remains a possibility.
It just boggles the mind how wet the space that I exposed was! How that much water could get to that location, undetected. Once it rotted through the 1/8 inch plywood, it showed up as a bulge in the waterproof covering and it has moistened the new laminate flooring in its immediate vicinity. I could see this as a raising of the surface of the flooring, in an area of about 1/2 a square foot, adjacent to th epart of the wall where the bulge was located. Once things dry out, I will caulk the space between the wall and the edge of the flooring to eliminate future problems. Luckily, I used a laminate with the "scraped hardwood" finish, so the raising of the surface in a small area doesn't show, and it is against the wall, so no chairs or anything else sit on it.
This is impacting my progress on building new valences, of which I had hoped to have all the work done before I had to return to Coquitlam.
This is also impacting my work on my boat, which needs to get ready for summer fun!
Ain't retirement grand!
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Keith,
A leak at the Girard will not necessarily show up directly below the leak location. Look at the exterior skin carefully for any delamination, indicated by a very slight "budge". The leak from my Girard showed up 3-5' aft of the leak location.
Steve
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Steve:
Despite the rot including the wood between the fibreglass skin and the aluminum frame, where I have cleaned the rotten wood away, working from the inside, there is no bulge in the exterior glass. I have an exterior bulges beside the entry door, but no corresponding problem on the interior.
What did you do about the "bulge" in the external glass? It isn't structural, so did you bother to do anything about it? Did it shrink after you gat the leak fixed?
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Keith,
Not much you can do about the delamination that I'm aware of. It seemed to decrease a bit after things dried out but it is still visible if you know what you are looking for.
If the bulge beside the entry door is near/below the exterior handle, be sure to check it out. I found leakage there when redoing my floor. Had I not pulled the carpet up, I'd have never noticed it. Handle has a seal that fails, then water pools in lower attach and gains access to interior through mounting screw. I resaled mine and drilled a "weep hole" in bottom of attachment.
Steve
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You would think......but no, the guys who are assembling these coaches would never think their product will be outside, subject to extremes of heat and cold, constant earthquake simulations, high pressure rain, etcetera, and that anything that appears tight enough in a heated shop may not be as tight after a few years of those extremes.
Thanks for suggesting the innocuaous looking handle attachments. That leaves any other attachment as equally suspect.