BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: John Padmore on August 05, 2013, 06:51:57 PM
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I don't have any power to any passenger side 120v outlets. I swapped the breaker in the main panel (labeled passenger outlets) with another that I know works and there is still no power. Any ideas what to look for next....from an electrically challenged person like me? Thanks.....
John
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Is that with OR without your inverter turned on?
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Coach is plugged in, inverter has power.
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Check the gfci outlets in the bay as well as inside of the coach and reset them to be sure. Also on the ceiling of the bay there is a grey breaker box. Turn those off and back on again to reset those. Most all of the inside outlets are wired from the bay gfci and this breaker box that is fed from the inverter.
Later Ed
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Ed, the elec service bay only has 12v connections and no breakers. Nothing on the ceiling either. I tried to reset the one gfi outlet in the coach, but it was not tripped. Now, I started the generator and the outlets work. Could it be that one side of the coach will only work while the generator is running, and not while plugged in? Doesn't make sense to me.....thanks.
John
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Most likely, as Ed has noted, there is probably another GFCI outlet which feeds those outlets, or there is another breaker somewhere.
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I don't understand, so please pardon my ignorance. If the outlets work with the generator running and not when it is off, how can the gfi or another breaker be off?? I don't get it - sorry but I am electric stupid! LOL.....thanks.
John
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John,
If they all work with the generator running then the breakers and gfci are all set and O.K. Sounds like a contact in the transfer switch was not making contact. If you know where that is try and open it up and with all 120v sources off blow it out or clean the contacts. Also check that the screws holding the wires are tight.
later Ed
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John,
Also check that both legs on the shore power lead are at 120V.
If you have 120V on everything with your generator running, the problem is definitely in the transfer switch, power post, or the wiring in between them. To verify this you can check and only one A/C unit will run.
Gerald
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LOL- Ed, I wouldn't know if the transfer switch was sitting on the living room floor staring at me! Now, I looked in the Patriot's supplement manual and it says it is located on the DS, behind the rear wheels. Can you give me a description of what I am looking for? Plastic, metal, big, little, lots of wire s coming out of this thing??? This is stuff I have never seen before.
Gerald, I am plugged into my home and since all of the other 120v stuff is working I just assumed that all was well there....thanks.
John
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John,
You said that you are plugged into your house. What type of service are you plugged into, 30A (three wire plug) or 50A (four wire plug)?
Gerald
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I am on a 15 amp cord into the 50 amp cord with an adaptor.
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John,
The highest probability for your problem is a defective adapter in your power cord. If you are using multiple adapters, the defective one will be the one that goes from 3 wire service to 4 wire service.
Gerald
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Do you mean the 50 to 30 amp and 30 to 15 amp adaptors? They are both new - not that I means they couldn't be defective. Any way for an electrical genius such as myself to check? ......thanks.
John
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John,
If you do not have a volt meter, use a different 30 amp to 50 amp adapter to see if that corrects your problem.
Gerald
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There are four holes in the 50 amp adapter that the motorhome cord will plug into.
The top and bottom are ground and neutral. The two sides should be "hot". If you have a voltmeter and insulated probes, you can measure for 120 volts from each of the side holes to either the top of bottom holes. Both should show 120 volts if the two adapters are working.
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OK, I have a volt meter and I know how to use it (sometimes, LOL) . It measured 119 volts on each side of the 30/50 amp plug. Measured with red probe on each side and the black probe on the top or bottom....same readings on each. I will now assume the adaptors are OK? ...thanks.
John
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It sounds like Ed and Gerald's notion is likely. If John has voltage at both legs of his 50 amp adapter's female side, the culprit must be a transfer switch connection. I know where mine is, but I can only guess on John's much different model coach. Still, wouldn't he look wherever his big coach cord terminates? Mine wires directly into the Surge Guard Transfer Switch in the cord compartment/bay. He needs help locating the switch on his '97. Richard Ames has a similar model doesn't he?
That said, would his 15 amp source be any cause for limitation?
John, switches I've seen look like those at this website:
http://www.trci.net/products/surge-guard/transfer-switches/
Just make sure you are unplugged and genset off before messing with it.
Joel
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Thank you Joel, I think I have seen this thing in the basement....next to the inverter - even though the manual says it is behind the rear wheel! I will check it out tomorrow ...used up my crawling around the motorhome quota today! Time for an adult refreshment.....thanks.
John
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Hope we can help. I'm a couple hours away from some of that refreshment myself. 87 degrees so far near Portland, so I may not wait that long for a Henry Weinhard's. ;)
Joel
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John,
It could be ether of those. The 15 to 30 or the 30 to 50 amp adapters could be bad. You also have the cords and transfer switch where the problem could be but if the coach has been OK power wise in campgrounds without the power adapters then look closely at the adapters. If you know how to use an ohm meter then you can check those adapters, if not get some help John.
Later Ed
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I had this problem on my previous coach and there is a box on the underside of the living room slide and one of the wires was loose and that solved my problem. Hope this will be all it is. Simple fix just cleaned the wires and replaced the wire nut.
Frank
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OK, I was able to find the transfer switch. Now, I can unplug my cord supplying power to the RV and turn off the inverter. Do I need to do anything else so this thing doesn't light my hair on fire when I open it up? ??)Thanks......
John
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John,
As long as you are unplugged from AC power, inverter is off, and generator not running all should be well. Once you are able to clean or blow out the contacts you can reconnect at the power pole and see if it all works. If not you can then take a meter, set on AC volts, and measure between the white wire which is neutral, usually the center wire in the transfer relay, and the black or red wire which are hot legs. Measure on both the input and output side of the relay to see if voltage is available at the input and if it is passing through. Only one of the two relays will have power on the line side with the generator off and the main RV cord plugged in. If one side is not passing voltage that is your problem. If one side does not have power coming in then your problem is before the transfer switch, possibly the cord or plug, or a loose connection, or even the power source at the plug in. If you are unsure about taking measurements with power on then get some help to trouble shoot this. Safety first...
Later Ed
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OK ED, here is what I found:
Two sets of heavy wires - white red black
Both had the same readings:
white to black = 115v
white to red = 0
red to black = 115v
I took these reading with the shore power plugged in, the inverter on and the coach power switch on.
Tried to remove the 3 relays - wouldn't budge.
Checked all connections and were tight and everything looks clean. Thanks.....
John
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John,
The white is the neutral. White to black at 115V is fine that leg is working. White to red should also be 115V, I think there is no power coming into the red side. I am confused about three relays, there should be just two. Can you take a photo, post it, and show us what you are seeing. If you start the generator which seems to power both legs in the coach you can look at the same measurements with that power source and see what is different. Usually there is a relay for the genset and one for the power cord. The output side is paralleled together and the input side is the separate power sources. The circuit board selects one or the other. It takes about a minute for the circuit board to switch over to the genset once started.
Later Ed
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Ed, as my dad was fond of saying....."Now we're cooking with gas"! (rest his soul)
OK, here is a pix of the unit that I have....it is a Parallex ATS 501
Now, with shore power plugged in, I again tested voltage across white and red wires, just to make sure I was looking at it correctly = zero.
Started the generator.
115 volts across the red/white on the far left terminals.
Here is the odd part - across the white/red terminals on the middle set of wires the voltage would run up to about 53 volts and then down to about 35 as I kept the probes there.
Herein lies the problem ( I think) What do you think? Thanks.....
John
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By the way, I just looked at the picture and it looks like the fault light is lit.
The fault light is NOT lit.....thanks.
John
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John,
You will have to read the info on the board where the wires are connected to be sure. As I look at the photo I think the generator comes in on the top right. There are two black wires one to the right and left of the terminal with the two white wires. With the gen running check between the white and each of the the two black wires. So one probe on the white and the other on each black wire one at a time. You should get 120V. Then check wires marked load, the left three wires, white to black, white to red. The load feeds the coach AC power panel. You should see 120V there also. The white red black wires in the center I think are the line in wires. With the coach plugged into the power pole, generator off, you should see 120V between the white and red and then 120V between the white and black. If that is O.K. then check the load wires to see if you again get 120V white to red and white to black. Unfortunately by design this board has sealed relays so that the contacts are not accessible. If you have the coach unplugged you should not see 120V on the center set of wires. If the generator is not running you should not see 120V on the right set of wires. With either source of power you should see 120V at the input wire set and the Line Out set of wires if the relays and switching circuits are working properly.
Later Ed
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Sounds like a good plan....tomorrow.
Raining hard today.....thanks.
John
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John,
I described a full test of the board. Your problem is either the line in wires do not have 120V on each leg with the coach plugged in, which would mean cord, plug, or connections before the transfer switch are at fault. The other possibility is that one of the two legs of the 120V is not being transferred through the relays to the load terminals in which case the board is defective. This board is just a big switch using relay contacts that either connects the genset or the 120V line in to the load terminals. The circuit board watches for genset voltage and when it sees it, then it automatically flips the proper relays and connects the genset, after a delay that allows the genset to stabilize.
The relays look pretty small to me and I would not be surprised if the board was the issue. Most of the replacement transfer switches will be housed in a metal box.
Later Ed
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O,K, I haven't had the opportunity today to test anything due to heavy rain.
Previously I tested the 30/50 adaptor and had 120 on each side of the plug coming from shore power, so I am ASSUMING that the shore power cord up to where the 30/50 dogbone is ok. I suppose I can test the cord on the male side where it plugs into the coach?
I will get in the basement (groaning loudly) tomorrow and do the testing tomorrow.
The relays look to be of normal size, and the current switch is housed in a metal box.
If the board is bad I guess a new switch is in order?......thanks.
John
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John,
The only reason to go back and test in the cord direction is if one of the two line in legs at the Transfer switch board does not have 120V with the coach plugged in. Otherwise you are testing just at the board.
I mention the size of the relay only because the brand of transfer switch in my coach used larger open GE relays and that is what I was used to seeing while poking around in there. Yours have to be rated for the proper current so it is just an observation John. Take your time, when the rain stops you will get to it....
Later Ed
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OK Ed, I was able to test the wiring according to your instructions, and I believe I actually understand this switch now.
Here are the results:
Generator running = 120v on each terminal.
Load wires = 120v on each leg.
Gen off, coach plugged in =120v on white/red but white/black = zero
Load wires = 120v on white/black bur white/red = zero
Now, as I write this I am thinking of what I have done to the coach recently and I think I may have found the problem.
I recently had the water service bay apart to fix a plumbing problem and I had to take apart the power receptacle to do so. I had a bit of a problem getting the wires back into the connector because they were so short.
Is it possible one of those wires came off as I reinstalled it and that is my problem?
I don't really want to try to tackle that one again if I don't have to, but I think it may be the culprit......thanks!
John
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John,
Good job on the measurements and understanding how this all works now, you may be an RV electrician yet.....
Somewhere between the power source and the transfer switch you are not connected on one of the hot lead sides. Good news is that the transfer switch looks to be fine. When you say you had to take apart the power receptacle, I do not know exactly what the function of that receptacle serves. If it is the one that the main power cord gets connected to coach wiring in, then by all means that could be the problem. Short leads and wire nuts are notorious for having issues if they are not tight or the wire is not fully inserted. They should be tight enough to twist the wires together and as a precaution then the wire and wire nut taped together all together with electrical tape so they cannot loosen up. If you are talking about a standard 120V outlet then that is not your problem.
If you can gain access to where the power cord is coupled to coach wiring in a junction box, that is where I would go next. If you get 120V on each leg of the main power cord then your problem is beyond that point. If not it is the power source, adapters, the cord, or the plug. Keep us posted, hopefully you are almost there.
Later Ed
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Ed, thanks for the vote of confidence I appreciate it!
Yes, I was talking about where the power cord plugs in to the coach - the main power line.
I assume the other end of this wire ends at the transfer switch?
I am wondering if I can replace the wire with a longer one, just tape the end to the old one when I pull it out....what do you think? Thanks.....
John
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John,
Usually the main power cord feeds the transfer switch and the output of that goes to the main breaker in your AC breaker panel. Sounds like you know what your problem is.
Sometimes you can gain some wire from outside of the junction box depending on how the cable was run. Disconnect the connections and loosen the clamp on the wire that can be rerouted a bit and pull more into the box. Mark the wire with a sharpie just inside the clamp location then pull the wire out of the box and trim the covering off back to your sharpie mark. That frees up the individual wires and will give you more slack hopefully. Take your time and rewire nut and tape each connection and work them back into the box. You can choose either wire to do this on. If you have no spare wire then for the lead you are having trouble with you can make a short jumper using a piece of the same wire gauge and two wire nuts to connect the existing wires through the jumper. You need to have enough space in the box to push all this back in and put the cover on. Either of these methods would be fine, which ever looks like the easiest cure. Take a photo if you get a chance, it helps us all learn and visualize these problems. Be sure and check that it all is working before buttoning everything up. This is probably a pain to work on but it is nice that you are looking at a $2 fix and for a motorhome problem that is always good news....
Later Ed
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Ed, I found that one of the wires was loose and pulled out of the 50 amp receptacle pretty easily. I went to the big box store and bought 12" of each size wire to extend them. I couldn't get wire nuts on them without taking the whole water panel apart again so I decided to solder them together. I was able to do this and put everything back together. Now I have 120v at the passenger side outlets (which was my original problem). I did not check the transfer switch since I had power to the receptacles.
Now, the extension cord that I have been using to plug the coach into the garage is getting hot at the plug end, and it never did that before. After a few minutes the house breaker pops. That makes me nervous. My question is:
Did I screw something up by soldering those wires together (to much resistance?) or do you think since I never had both legs of the 50 amp circuit working properly it never tripped the breaker. I have a 15 amp cord plugged into the 50 amp cord going to the coach.. Not much "on" in the coach....a 110 volt fan and whatever runs from the inverter. What do you think? Thanks.....
John
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John,
You may have a way to read current in the coach to see what the AC load is. If your hot water is heated with an electric element be sure that is off. You can kill the frig or put it on propane for a bit. The most likely thing is the inverter is charging the batteries and pulling more current than your breaker and cord can handle. I would start the generator and let it run half an hour or more with the inverter on to bring the batteries up and then when you shut it down let it flip over to the power cord and the 20 amp breaker and see if things are now O.K. The solder joints should be fine as long as they have been soldered properly and it should be less resistance than using wire nuts. The fact that you are pulling more current, is just that you have more load, and not an issue with the solder joint repair. See if you can figure out what is pulling the load in the coach, it has to be exceeding 20 amps total to kick the breaker.
Later Ed
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John,
Many times when utilizing a long extension cord from a garage outlet that is also a ground fault outlet, the breaker will trip if the load nears the maximum amount. It doesn't always need to exceed the 20 amps. Make sure the outlet you use is not a ground fault outlet and you may have a little more luck.
Roy Warren
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Ed, I started the generator and the inverter panel read:
DC Volts = 13.5 - 14
DC Amps = 90
Let it run 1 hour to top off the batteries, now reading:
DC Volts 14
DC Amps 40
The only thing on in the coach is a 110v fan, nothing else.
House batteries are 4 months old, start batteries 2 years - all topped off.
I was able to read voltage at the transfer switch before the circuit tripped.
Generator off, ac plugged into the garage (no gfi circuit) load and line voltage were both 107 volts.
Any idea what is using so much power and why I am now at 107 volts? Thanks.....
John
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Based on my sense of your topic, the batteries have been used for power for awhile. Now the system is charging them back up and it takes longer than you might expect. 3 or 4 hours is not a surprise for battery charging.
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Bill, I believe you are right.
After running the generator for another 2 hours the amps went to 10 - amazing.
I'm beginning to actually like this electricity stuff - LOL :) Thanks.....
John
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John,
Does your coach have a panel that measures AC amps? If so see what is being pulled on each leg or combined. Now that you have charged enough to get down to 10 amps DC you should be much better off AC wise. Regarding the extension cord, how long is it? What wire gauge is it? If you can get a cord that is 12gauge wire that is not much longer than it needs to be you will be better off. I would say a 14 gauge cord is minimum. You must have been about 120V at the outlet and that cord dropped 13 volts along the way to the coach with the amps you were pulling. You are probably better now but the better/heavier the cord gauge wise the more usable power you can deliver to the coach up to the 20amp supply limit.
In this situation with just a 20 amp supply you are best off just leaving things plugged in rather than have the batteries get depleted and then try and bring them back up again.
Later Ed
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I'm not fond of that 107 volt number. On my coach that is about the bottom allowable source power. After that, if not before, you risk harming any devices on board that demand high startup power, like air conditioning motors. In an RV park, that is often caused by too many indians around the fire, but at home... ? Your cord or its plugs may not be up to passing adequate voltage through; that's known as voltage drop, and occurs over longer lengths of inadequately sized cord or other wiring components. And don't be too quick to ignore that fan; they can pull some juice too.
Joel
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John,
I had a similar problem when I first plugged in to a 15 amp outlet in the garage at my old house, using a home and garden 16 gauge power cord. Since we have moved, the coach is stored about 2-1/2 miles away, and the owner of the lot lets me plug in there. Based on Bill Sprague's advice, I bought a 100 foot 12 gauge extension cord, and although its a long way, the 12 gauge apparently is the difference. No problems since.
Stan
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I left the coach plugged in overnight and the amps went to 10. The voltage at the transfer switch is now 111 volts. I am using a 15 amp extens. ion cord, 25' long so I think that may be contributing to the voltage drop. Thanks to all for your help in solving this problem, I really appreciate it!.....
John
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It's not just the amp rating of the cord. Most are "15 amps" regardless of gauge. To minimize voltage drop and cord component overheating, buy a 12 gauge cord; the larger wire will carry power with less resistance to flow (current), minimizing any loss of volts (the power behind the current), aka "voltage drop", along the cord's length.
The longer the cord, the larger its gauge should be. 12 gauge is about as heavy a regular extension cord as is commonly available at most retailers. Beyond that you'd have to pony up for 30 or 50 amp RV extensions, unnecessary for just basic charge maintenance.
Joel
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It's not just the amp rating of the cord. Most are "15 amps" regardless of gauge. To minimize voltage drop and cord component overheating, buy a 12 gauge cord; the larger wire will carry power with less resistance to flow (current), minimizing any loss of volts (the power behind the current), aka "voltage drop", along the cord's length.
The longer the cord, the larger its gauge should be. 12 gauge is about as heavy a regular extension cord as is commonly available at most retailers. Beyond that you'd have to pony up for 30 or 50 amp RV extensions, unnecessary for just basic charge maintenance.
Joel
Just to clarify, Joel. I saw 10 gauge at Lowes when I bought the 100 ft 12g. It was a 50 footer, and about 1-1/2 times the price of a 12g 100 footer. I didn't have a choice, I needed at least 80 feet.
Stan
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Yup, some do have 10 gauge, but even 12 was hard to spot at most places I looked a few years ago. And any heavier for the current draw intended seemed overkill at the prices asked, as you note.
Joel