BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Keith Cooper on September 29, 2013, 03:22:51 PM
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We have had significant porpoising issues with our coach over the last three years. In addition, I noticed some wandering issues in the steering, at times. While we were at the Bull's Rally in Grants Pass, Roy Mueller replaced the Bilstein shocks with Koni's and added a Saf T Plus steering stabilizer with a SuperSteer.
We are currently on the Beavers to Balloons rolling rally and the handling issues are no longer present. Should have had this done this several years ago.
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Thanks for the feedback. I'm due for new shocks too.
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I just bought Koni's for my coach. Won't get them installed for a couple of weeks but look forward to the ride improvement. How much does the steering stabilizer cost? Might look at that as well. Thanks.
Rich
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The Koni's sure helped our ride. I'm glad we bought those also.
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Purchased an 02 Marquis in August. Wondered all over the road. Could not keep it going straight. Seems like it was never satisfied, always want to go either right or left. Full time job keeping in the lane. Could not take eyes off the road for 2 seconds. I remembered an old trick my father taught me in the 1960s. If a vehicle wonders, increase the "toe in". Had my mechanic check the alignment. It was perfectly straight. Told him to add 1/4" toe in. It is amazing how much difference it made. Tracks straight with much less input. So much more relaxing to drive now.
If it causes the tires to wear a little more, it's well worth it. I've been told, you never wear out tires. It is always the date that gets the tire.
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Terry,
If you are running 1/4 of an inch excess toe in, you will wear out the tires before they date out if you drive the average of 12,000 to 15,000 miles a year for a retired owner with moderate use. However, if you drive the coach only on vacation trips you will probably be OK. Installing a trim unit on the steering linkage will also correct the condition without the tire wear problem.
Gerald
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Gerald, I don't know what "normal" is. It may be normal with 1/4" toe in. You say "excess" toe in. I don't know what the factory setting is.
I can't imagine that I will travel in excess of 15,000 miles a year. If 5 years at 15,000/yr means the tires will wear out in 75,000 miles, that is ok with me in exchange for good handling.
What is the trim unit and what do they cost?
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Terry,
Specifications on your coach probably call for a toe-in setting of 1/8 inch in, and from your previous post I thought that you had increased the toe 1/4 inch more than that, but if you are running a total toe-in of only 1/4 inch you should experience very little excess tire wear.
There are several steering trim units on the market. They started with the Howard Power Center Steering units that are no longer available because the founder retired in the last recession and could not sell the company, to the Safety Plus units that are sold by Henderson's Line-up. Blue Ox also sells a steering stabilizer with an adjustable trim unit. I think that the cost is around $1500, for most currently available models, but I am not sure. However, remember that a steering stabilizer without a trim unit to adjust the center location for different driving conditions will be of little benefit for you problem.
You can check with Roy Mueller, the BAC member who developed the trim unit that Henderson's Line-up sells to see what the cost is and see what BAC rallies you can meet at if you want him to install one for you.
Gerald
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We had the safety plus installed by Hendersons at the FMAC rally in Gillete. Only made a minor difference
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The cost for the safety plus was $750
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You'll be glad you have the Safe-T-Plus in a blowout.
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We had Roy install both the Super Steer trim unit and the Safe-T-Plus steering stabilizer. the addition of the two units made a significant difference in the way the coach handles.
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Gerald, thanks so much for the information. I won't worry about an 1/8" too much toe in.
Other folks, thanks for the input.
Keith, what did you pay for the Super Steer trip unit? Gerald said the Blue Ox is around $1500.
Joel, (or anyone) have you ever experienced a blowout on the front?
Anyone; other than an old, cracked, tire; what causes a blowout.
I know from smaller trucks and trailers that running with too LOW air pressure is the worst enemy of a tire. Of course over loading is the second.
We just about can't overload our Beaver tires, so, if we keep the date code under 7 years and keep the pressure up; what are the odds of a blowout?
What I'm hoping for is a million to one. If for every 1000 RVs on the road, one has catastrophic blowout once a year, I don't like those odds.
I flew a small plane for 35 years. Have ridden a motorcycle almost all my life. I will always try to improve my safety odds to keep from being a statistic.
If the SafT plus and the Supersteer improves safety, I will add at the first opportunity.
Anyone know a good service shop in the Phoenix area?
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What I can't figure out from this thread (and other similar ones) is how we can have the exact same MH as several others and have absolutely no steering issues. I don't think it's a question of our tolerance of sloppy steering being more than some other people's; I really don't think my PT handles badly at all. It is, of course, basically a truck and I'm not insisting on the steering being as tight as on a fine German car, but nor do I (or my DW) feel we have any difficulty keeping it between the lane markers.
Maybe Gerald can comment as to whether or not there was a large variability in these chassis during production. Are some simply straighter than others? A couple of years ago I encountered an owner of a 2000 PT at a campground and he complained of similar steering issues with his new "for him" MH. My experienced eye noticed evidence of his MH having been T-boned and repaired and I mentally attributed his steering issues to such an accident. For those coaches that have had multiple owners, I wonder how many such issues are the result of undisclosed previous accidents? Any thoughts, Gerald?
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TERRY
I have the Blue Ox Supersteer installed by Spectrac Suspension Center in Mesa. I love the unit and the fact that Im can "trim" to handle various road or weather conditions. I had it installed in 2010 for a cost of about $800. I had had the Howard Center steering prior on PT so wanted something similar on the 08 Contessa. Make certain that you have an alignment done just prior installing if you go that route.
Leah
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Thanks, Leah. I will give Spectrac a call.
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Joel,
There is a little difference in handling between coaches, but from my experience the main difference is in the expectations of the driver. I have driven a Beaver coach for nearly 14 years, and I can tell you that the first trip in my Patriot (first motorhome I ever drove) was very tiring. It took about 3,000 miles to get accustomed to the way that it handled. My 2000 Marquis handles a little better than the 93 Patriot, but it still does not drive like a car, and it never will because of the long wheelbase.
Gerald
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Gerald:
Thanks for the response; that was sort of what I expected to hear. After >30,000 miles of driving my PT I find it very comfortable to drive even when there are pretty severe crosswinds. I guess everyone's expectations are just different. I asked the question because I honestly was puzzled as to why so many people with similar coaches felt it necessary to install add-on steering aids. I was wondering if I was missing something.
Joel
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Joel,
I'm with you, my coach steers straight as an arrow with no wandering or effort on my part to maintain my position within a lane. Even with wind it is quite solid with minor correction if at all. It is far superior to my 89 Contessa on a Gillig chassis. I have often marveled as to how well it drives. It reminds me a bit of an old heavy Cadillac, just point her and go.
I am sure that there is a certain amount of luck as to how well it was originally set up and aligned and how well it was jigged when the frame was welded at the factory. There may be a tire component here also. I am running Michelin XZA2 Energy tires and they track very well. I have no tag axle so that set up is not a factor on my coach. The only handling issue I run into from time to time is when the interstate is so worn with uneven truck ruts within a lane, that the coach can track the ruts somewhat....I do not think that there is any cure for that within our suspension set up or add ons.
Later Ed
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Thanks, Ed. I agree that my MH is so easy to drive that I sometimes forget I'm driving something that large. As for staying in lane, on our way south I drove that delightful ~80 mile stretch of I-15 from Ogden to Provo with seemingly every square inch of pavement occupied by a vehicle. Keeping track of the crazies zooming around me was tiresome, but it wasn't difficult to keep the MH in its lane. We're driving on Michelin XZE2+'s and I think they are even better than the XZA2's they replaced.
Joel
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Joel,
Maybe we are just lucky and maybe part of this is just personal perspective, either way it is good to be happy.
I've done that stretch of road a few times and it never ceases to amaze me how fast and crazy that population of mostly Mormons drive. It is a bit nerve racking there for sure but not as bad as Houston :-)
Later Ed
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If you are going to be in the Phoenix area, it is not far to go to go to the Quartzsite rally. Henderson RV has a garage set-up there and I know you could get an appointment for both alignment and the Safety Plus plus the Roy Mueller trim unit there. You can call them in Grants Pass, OR and check with Robert about setting this up.
We had a left front blow-out on our 99 PT with Vicki driving and it was not pretty. We left the road to the left and went into the center of an interstate highway. Tires were only 4 1/2 years old and were under the proper inflation. We were going to replace the tires when we got to San Diego, but didn't make it without a blow-out. We replace our tires every 5 years now and have both the Safety Plus and the trim unit installed.
Good luck and safe motorhoming.
Roy and Vicki
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If you are going to be in the Phoenix area, it is not far to go to go to the Quartzsite rally. Henderson RV has a garage set-up there and I know you could get an appointment for both alignment and the Safety Plus plus the Roy Mueller trim unit there. You can call them in Grants Pass, OR and check with Robert about setting this up.
We had a left front blow-out on our 99 PT with Vicki driving and it was not pretty. We left the road to the left and went into the center of an interstate highway. Tires were only 4 1/2 years old and were under the proper inflation. We were going to replace the tires when we got to San Diego, but didn't make it without a blow-out. We replace our tires every 5 years now and have both the Safety Plus and the trim unit installed.
Good luck and safe motorhoming.
Roy and Vicki
You just scared my wife out of ever trying to drive. :)
We live in the Phx area and plan on being at the Rally in Quartsite. Leah told of a place in Mesa (near Phx) that installs them. If they can't do it or seem too expensive, I will give Henderson RV a call and get price and availability from them.
Gerald, do you have the Safety Plus on your rig?
Has anyone ever heard of someone having a blowout "with" the Safety Plus installed? Anyone know "exactly" what the thing does?
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No, I haven't experienced a blowout. But I like to think I drive with an awareness one facet of which includes that possible event. Having had a similar device on our old gas coach, and over 27 years read enough about them in various venues, I'd be more confident with one installed on the Beaver.
One piece of advice I've absorbed along the way is not to do the instinctive thing and brake in a blowout, especially a front one. Rather, one should keep the throttle there enough to maintain steerage and some modicum of control, gradually powering down and to a safe roadside stop. Suddenly hitting the brakes will take wheel power away that's necessary for steer-ability, offsetting drag from the depressurized tire.
Joel
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One piece of advice I've absorbed along the way is not to do the instinctive thing and brake in a blowout, especially a front one. Rather, one should keep the throttle there enough to maintain steerage and some modicum of control, gradually powering down and to a safe roadside stop. Suddenly hitting the brakes will take wheel power away that's necessary for steer-ability, offsetting drag from the depressurized tire.
Joel
Joel, absolutely good advice no matter what vehicle is being driven. This should be in all capitals in every vehicles owners manual.
A preamble to the above might be, "If a tire blows, don't panic".
A while back Firestone made some bad SUV tires that were blowing regularly and SUVs would roll with many casualties. I would guess that most were caused by people who needed your advice above.
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According to Josam - Truck Frame and Alignment Specialist Worldwide in Orlando Fl there are many many coaches out there that have serious alignment problems caused by the manufacturer welding steering and suspension components to the chassis without proper bracing so when things cool the assembly twists out of true. They have cut out whole axle assemblies on many coaches and rewelded them correctly.
Just saying.........my 2000 Beaver Marquis Amethyst used to wander till I had properly sized steer tires installed with new shock absorbers. No more wander. Alignment was fine. I can steer with my fingers....not recommended !!
Josam's told me not one Oregon built Beaver had issues like this.
I would strongly suggest that you go to a full alignment truck shop and have the whole coach checked before spending hard earned dollars buying gear that may only mask the real problem.
A simple check.......driving down a level straight road say at 40 mph,look in your rear view mirror as you ease off the accelerator and then power back up .....if your rear end moved out of line you have issues. Either...an alignment problem or worn radius rods on the drive axle.....these adjustable rods secure the axle in situ and keep it aligned...they have rubber or synthetic bushings that wear causing slackness in the assembly.
Correct for load tires and good shocks combined with a perfect alignment will allow your coach to run straight as a dye !
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Jeremy,I pick up my Marquis tomorrow from Camping world. I will try out your test. Sounds reasonable.
thanks,
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Some Magnum chassis came from the factory with the rear axle installed 2-3 inches off center (left to right). It took 5 years and many alignments for me to finally find the problem. Centering the rear axle solved the handling problem. Have the alignment shop check that overlooked issue also.
Larry.
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Well I went to Spectrac in Gilbert, AZ to have a Blue Ox True Centering installed. He talked me into the Safety Plus, saying they install them on all the buses. Less money. Problem is that it pulled right after I left. I have made adjustments to it three times now and it is very close. Needs another tweak (about 1/8" on the tie rod where the safety plus attaches).
It was 50 miles and another day lost, to take the unit back for them to adjust. If they didn't do it right the first time what hope was there that they'd get it right the second?
So far, I am very disappointed I did not get the Blue Ox for another $300. It is a real pain to crawl under the coach, loosen the clamps while my DW moves the steering wheel, then re-tighten. Very touchy. First try I moved it a 1/4" in the wrong direction and it pulled right even harder. Then back to original spot and 1/8" at a time the other way. Hopefully one more 1/8" adjustment will be done with it. I'd gladly give $300 for an electric trim button in the drivers seat.
I'll have a chance to see how it has affected overall handling on the trip to Indio next week.
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Terry
Am sorry to hear that you got talked into something your not happy with. Any chance you could get Spectrac to redo and give you the Blue Ox. I am sure happy with mine. I love being able to trim to adjust to wind or road conditions. I'd sure give it a try if I were you.
There is no way you should have to be crawling under your rig to adjust things.
Sounds like they did a lousy job, I'd sure speak with the owner about all this.
Leah
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Leah, I'm sure they'd be happy to tinker with handling and get it tracking straight. can't imagine they'd remove the Safety plus and install a blue ox for only the difference in original price. They are so far away, it is a pain dealing with them. DW has to follow me the 50 miles and take me back the next day. I could tell they took my Beaver for a test drive, it had 4 more miles on it than when I dropped it off. I can't imagine that they thought it was natural to pull to the right. Maybe they thought it was the crown of the road? Should have taken your advice and waited for the Blue OX. If one more small adjustment does not correct it, I will probably remove the Safety plus and put it up for sale.
BTW, no one answered my question about "What does it do".
It is simply a spring loaded shock absorber tied to the frame on one end and the tie rod on the other, preventing the tie rod (steering wheels) from making sudden movements and the spring helping it stay centered. I have no doubt it increases safety in a blow out but I doubt it will improve handling in any way.
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Terry, I had the Safety Plus put on my 98 Monterey and loved it. I did have to adjust it also. After about three adjustments it was perfect and solved my problems. I was going to take it off and put it on my 02 Thunder but my Thunder drives straight and true with no problems and has for the last 6.5 years.
Marty
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I had a Safe-T-Plus installed on our old Pace Arrow by Camping world. Never had an issue with it, but then I never had a blow out either. Hopefully your next tweak will be spot-on, but the installer certainly should be responsible for their lousy installation, even if they had to recompense your installation labor fees.
If I get around to putting a steering damper on ours, I'll likely go to Henderson's, a BAC sponsor, who built their own device and are well known quality installers. I'll have them check out the rest of the chassis while I'm there.
Joel
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Terry,
IMHO Massey's Diesel is the best shop in the valley for chassis and engine work. Tom, the service manager has been in the RV/Diesel service biz at that location since the mid eighties. They are a bit of a drive as they are on 59th ave south of Buckeye, but well worth the trip. They've done service on both my Beavers and have never had a problem.
Steve
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Terry
I sure would go back Spectrac and see about an exchange especially since you are having so much problem. Really, ask to speak with the owner. I have dealt with him before and I think you might get some resolution. His name escape me with age!
Leah
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Terry,
As I stated earlier in this thread, "that a steering stabilizer without a trim unit to adjust the center location for different driving conditions will be of little benefit for you problem". Therefore, it is my opinion that the Super Steer stabilizer without a trim unit is a waste of money when it comes to your complaint in this thread. I strongly recommend that you talk to the shop owner and voice your concerns. If they convinced you to buy something that does not correct your problem, it is their responsibility to work with you especially since you initially requested the right product.
Gerald
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Thanks, Gerald. I did not expect the Safety Plus to improve handling, just safety. What I didn't expect is for the handling to be worse than before (pulling to the right). Hopefully, I can get that corrected with another try or two at tweaking the position of the SP. I've been happy with the handling since I increased the "toe-in".
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Terry,
The problem that will be worse without a trim unit is that when you are steering into a crosswind or compensating for road crown, it will require more pressure on the steering wheel to keep the coach going straight. Therefore, driving under those conditions will be more tiring, because the stabilizer will be trying to return the wheel back to center.
Gerald
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I had Roy install the Henderson system on our 03Contessa. But he also installed the trim kit. If you don't have the trim kit that is your problem. When you are in a cross wind I just pull slitley into the wind, bump the switch and life is good. Note do not expect this unit to correct for a 40 mile cross wind, it will help but not totally correct it.
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After having a Safety Plus installed in Mesa, the coach pulled right. I had Henderson install the trim unit in Indio. After trim unit was installed, on the way to Quartzite, it handles great even in stiff cross winds. Well worth the almost $2k spent on Safety Plus and the trim unit.
I actually have time to tinker with the Silver Leaf while driving, which I could never do before while going down the road.
It is amazing how much less time needs to be spent concentrating on keeping the coach in lane. Can't wait to get on the road again.