BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Dean Johnson on October 08, 2013, 07:50:37 PM
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Hello All,
It's that time of year, the last trip of the season is over and I'm now faced with having to winterize. I've gleaned, or maybe assumed that some out there do not go through this process. We live in the Seattle area and last winter was quite mild.
This is a 2005 Monterey with Aqua Hot, ice maker and washer/dryer. I have a shelter for the coach but it is open on the front and back. I have the coach plugged in to 110v. If I were to leave the Aqua Hot on (electric) and the furnace at about 50, additionally we have a oil filled radiator heater inside, would that be sufficient to keep the basement warm? With the heater inside, I can keep the interior at about 50 with no problem.
I checked with a local service center and they quoted about $60 to winterize the unit, which seems like a decent price.
Any opinions, comments appreciated.
Thanks
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The problem with your HydroHot is that in storage operation it can fail and you may not know it until it's too late. If it's near your house where you can regularly check it during a NW cold snap, that's a plan. You can monitor electrical breakers easily also, for both the HHot and your heater. When our coach isn't winterized, I set the thermostat at 40 whenever overnight temps approach 30 and may stay there or lower for long. The bay thermostat is preset around that temp also.
If on the other hand the coach isn't easily monitored, I'd winterize it myself or have it done. A frozen hydronic exchanger is many thousands of dollars. Simply blowing out the water system with a compressor is inadequate protection against that loss. Pumping RV antifreeze throughout is time consuming but not difficult, but at the very least pump until it comes out all the hot faucets.
If I've done that much, I'd might as well do the rest, cold lines, water bay shower, inside shower, toilet, icemaker (or drain its solenoid), a couple cups in the drum cycled once through the washer/dryer, and some in each drain to protect traps.
Joel
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Joel,
Thanks for the reply to my post. The service center I spoke with said they would not pump RV antifreeze through the water lines but drain, blow them out and put the pink stuff in the traps. The ice maker would have to be dealt with obviously and does winterizing the Aqua Hot involve pumping the Pink stuff through all the water lines?
Also, I'm not sure if I have basement heat or a thermostat that controls that. How would I check that?
Thanks,
Dean
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Dean,
To protect the HH in cold weather, blowing out the lines is not sufficient, because there will always be water left in the coils. Yes, you need to pump the pink stuff until the hot and cold side of each faucet runs pink. Then put some in the sink and shower drains, and the toilet.
Stan
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Dean
The Basement thermostat is located in bay in front of rear tire. on passenger side.
Trust me You do want to pump antifreeze through ALL the domestic water lines, including the washer machine. and ice maker.
Replacement for that unit as around $8,000.00 8)
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I think others adequately answered as I would. Whoever your service center is, I'd find another. Or they didn't realize you had a hydronic system. If I was pressed for time, after draining the manifold and tanks, and blowing the entire system, as I indicated I'd at least pump RV through to the hot faucets. Orman spotted the bay stat for you and it is automatic, preset, and not adjustable... as long as the HydroHot is functioning, the bays should be fine; you don't need to check it, but might want to look so you know exactly where it is.
The icemaker solenoid, behind the fridge, should have foil-covered heat tape around it. It automatically activates off the 12v. batteries when the outside air gets cold enough to threaten. Nevertheless, I manually cycle the icemaker while blowing the water system, to help water out of the solenoid. You can also disconnect and drain the In and Out lines at the solenoid, or even cycle the icemaker while pumping antifreeze until it runs out the ice tray filler port, but I've never gone that far.
Like Portland, Seattle's winter weather is mild, but recent years have brought mid-teen temps. once a year. If we might take a winter trip to the coast and so I haven't winterized with pink stuff, I only go out and activate hydronics and plug in whenever long freeze threatens or guests here sleep in the coach overnight. Unlike you we are parked uncovered, so our solar system keeps the battery bank up nearly year-round without plugging in. I've found no need to panic when sub zero impends, as bay and interior temps seem well insulated, staying safe on their own unless the cold stays for half a day or more. Regardless, I monitor conditions and act accordingly.
Joel
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A similar icemaker valve with foil heat tape.
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As Gerald noted awhile back, wintering south of I-10 seems a lot simpler..... 8)
Steve
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Hello!
Because I am very interested in how everything works and I must always know what is going on, lol, I have a couple questions on this subject. Undoubtedly, they may be dumb questions but, oh well, I am going to ask them anyway!
1. Is there any reason to worry about the Aqua Hot freezing if it is plugged into 50 amps, and ONLY plugged in, no diesel on at all?
2. Would the water tank need to be full?
3. Would the water pump need to be on?
4. Am I mistaken in the thought that if the RV is full of anti-freeze it would be un-usable and if it was to be stayed in, say during a power outage, then all systems would need to be flushed and then re-winterized once it is no longer being used?
Ha, ha, ha! Told ya! Yet I am forging on!...
We live in Port Angeles WA, and the winters tend to be more mild than not but we do have the occasional cold snap. This is our first "Aqua Hot" as our '98 Patriot had a Hurricane system and we NEVER winterized it. Nor have we ever used any anti-freeze. We typically would just drain the low points, leave all faucets open and one electric heater, w/ thermostat, left inside the coach. For 5 years we never had any problems doing this BUT we think this Aqua Hot do-hicky is a different animal and want to do things right!
I appreciate all the info I can get to understand this...(and I am not telling Keith I posted this! LOL!) "Silly Wife!"
Thanks guys!
Carol
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Hello Carol
The Aqua-Hot Do-Hicky is really is really a simple system.
If you are plugged in to your 50 amp service with no chance of power loss, you should have no problems with the Aqua-Hot
However you will still be subject to the domestic water freezing though out the rest of the coach.
If you have more questions, feel free to contact me,
Mean while enjoy all the nice rainy WA. weather. in P A 8)
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1. Is there any reason to worry about the Aqua Hot freezing if it is plugged into 50 amps, and ONLY plugged in, no diesel on at all?
2. Would the water tank need to be full?
3. Would the water pump need to be on?
4. Am I mistaken in the thought that if the RV is full of anti-freeze it would be un-usable and if it was to be stayed in, say during a power outage, then all systems would need to be flushed and then re-winterized once it is no longer being used?
(Orman posted while I was still typing! He is right as usual.)
Carol,
1. Yes. If the power goes out, the Aqua Hot electric element fails and it is below freezing you risk cracking the inner coils and it is VERY expensive to fix that. The problem is that the failure of a single part will make for an expensive repair. Yes, the elements do burn out. Mine has and it was the day before a week long cold snap near Tacoma.
2. No, the water tank's state of fullness has nothing to do with the Aqua-Hot system.
3. No, the water pump does not have to be on. It has nothing to do with the internal workings of the Aqua-Hot other than pushing fresh water through it.
4. You can use the motorhome when it is winterized if the power goes out. The generator will provide power and the Aqua-Hot will still provide heat, even with the pink stuff in it. Gallon bottles of water are cheap. A half dozen would be enough for flushing, drinking and even washing for the typical PNW power outage.
Flushing and re-winterizing are each 10 minute jobs once you've done it and have the parts. It is the only way to be completely worry free. The only downside is the price of the the pink stuff. I tend to need 4 or 5 gallons. I usually can find it on promo sales for around $3. $15 is easy insurance compared to the several thousand dollar repair job.
If the motorhome is parked where I can keep an eye on it, the electric element alone is enough to keep the entire motorhome from freezing down to about 25 degrees. I leave the thermostats at 50 with the electric element on. Below 25 I can run the diesel part of the Aqua-Hot. I don't think I need to winterize it with pink stuff if I am where I can monitor it.
If I'm far enough away where I can't watch the motorhome, I will winterize with pink stuff.
We've made it through 10 winters and several repairs with our Aqua/Hydro Hot. I'm beginning to understand it! Call me if you have any questions.
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Thank you, Bill and Orman! This makes me feel much better. Keith and I can talk about it and mull it over all day long but in the end we have to admit that we just don't know for sure, despite how logical it sounds. NOW we know! I will sleep better having all this confirmed!
Thanks again, guys, and we WILL call if we have any more questions! You guys, and this forum, are awesome! :) Oh, and Orman? Next week is supposed to be fantastically sunny! Yea!
Carol
PS... This WOULD make a great video! ;)
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Hello Carol
The Aqua-Hot Do-Hicky is really is really a simple system.
If you are plugged in to your 50 amp service with no chance of power loss, you should have no problems with the Aqua-Hot
However you will still be subject to the domestic water freezing though out the rest of the coach.
If you have more questions, feel free to contact me,
Mean while enjoy all the nice rainy WA. weather. in P A 8)
Can you get by using 30 AMP service only? Living near Nashville, TN, we'll get temps down in the twenty's and occasional teens, but not for long, so I want to plug my 1997 Marquis in, being able to use it for long weekend trips, but don't want to use the pink stuff. I hope to put one portable heater in the utility bay and one in the kitchen. Hopefully, that'll be enough.
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Gary,
You will need to either leave the diesel burner or the electric element in the Aqua Hot on to prevent freeze damage in the basement and in the Aqua Hot unit itself. So with the Aqua Hot unit running, there should be no need for space heaters in the coach if you set the thermostat on 40 degrees or as close to that as you can get. The Aqua Hot unit will run OK on 30 amp service and prevent freeze damage in the entire coach at the temperatures that you mentioned.
The only flaw to using this approach to prevent freeze damage is that you have no protection if you have a power failure or an Aqua Hot malfunction. So if you decide on this approach, to be on the safe side, you will need to check the coach for proper operation before every cold snap, because a frozen Aqua Hot is very expensive.
Gerald
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....The only flaw to using this approach to prevent freeze damage is that you have no protection if you have a power failure or an Aqua Hot malfunction. So if you decide on this approach, to be on the safe side, you will need to check the coach for proper operation before every cold snap, because a frozen Aqua Hot is very expensive.
Gerald
I have worked out a somewhat complicated back up plan to power failure or Aqua Hot malfunction. It involves getting the genset to start for power failures and small heaters coming on for Aqua Hot malfunctions with thermostats from Lowe's. I use a 30 amp connection where I store the motorhome.
Details would take some creative writing. If anyone wants details I would enjoy showing them. Writing about it would take some effort.
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Thanks Gerald and Bill for the info. Still deciding what to do. We just don't want to give up our second home yet this year, but jobs can't allow us to head south for more than a week or two.
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Gary
One other suggestion, Try leaving the Diesel turned on and the Electric plugged in and turned on.
Contrary to some belief, they(diesel & Electric) can be operated at the same time.
Just need a full tank of fuel, you are ready to go anytime, 8)
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Gary
One other suggestion, Try leaving the Diesel turned on and the Electric plugged in and turned on.
Contrary to some belief, they(diesel & Electric) can be operated at the same time.
Just need a full tank of fuel, you are ready to go anytime, 8)
Orman,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that will work on some, not all models. Where it works are the models that have different cut in temperatures for the diesel and electric. The electric comes on first and does the job until the demand is high. Then it is "backed up" with the diesel.
On mine, the diesel and electric come on together. If I left the diesel switch on during storage I would consume a lot of fuel!
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I usually end up winterizing my coach about 3 times a year. I winterized it when I got back home from 7 Feathers. Only blew out all the lines and then used a gallon of antifreeze for the Hydro Hot and hot water lines. Will be putting water back in it today
as we will be heading out for the Canadian Thanksgiving long week end. Will need to do the complete winterize when we get back home on Monday as the coach will then be sitting for the next 3 months.
When we head south I will put water back in it once we get down to Mesquite which is not on the books until early February.
Plan to return home early April at which time I will need to winterize again but usually can get by with the quick version.
I live in the Calgary Alberta area so we do get winter. The lawn is white with frost as I am writing this note as it went down to
20 to 25 F early this morning.
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Harvey,
I like the idea of blowing out the lines and putting the pink stuff in for the Aqua/Hydro Hot. But, what do you do for the washer dryer, ice maker Line and the pump?
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Bill
With both Diesel & Elect operating (unless someone has modified Tstats) will both come on same time,
Diesel is a lot cheaper than repairing/replacing AH 8)
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I pull the lines off the solenoid for the ice make and let them drain. Remove the filter for the iced make.
As for the washer /dryer it was not used all summer long as the park that we summer at does not allow the
use of private washers and dryers so the antifreeze was still in the lines and tub of the washing machine.
I have a cheater cord to pick up the solenoid on the ice maker to blow it out or to add antifreeze.
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I think Orman meant for Gary to leave the diesel side on only during any significant cold snap. I would imagine such an occurence over the next couple of weeks at Nashville to be brief if at all.
My internet moniker elsewhere is "hafcanadian". My cousins in Calgary regularly keep me apprised of the temps there, and as you might imagine it freezes early, late, and long. Cousin Doris often pines for her old home ground near Victoria.
There are times I envy Harvey's routine; his experience several times a year would probably expedite my relatively rare winterizing endeavors. I probably fret too much over the icemaker solenoid; it takes more effort to deal with that little thing, what with manually cycling it and dealing gingerly with the hard-to-get-a-wrench-on and easily stripped tube nuts or pumping through pink stuff. The heat tape is probably adequate protection... but if the batteries/charger go down ... :o
I've never worried about the icemaker filter much, since I can see through the clear lines attached to it when water has drained back. I've never actually pumped antifreeze through it to the icemaker system as I think it might retain some after dewinterizing, and infuse subsequent ice with unwanted flavor.
Harvey, what do you mean by "cheater cord"? A way to activate the solenoid by applying 12 volts directly to it? That would save the hassle cycling the timer. Just removing the tubes will drain them, but not necessarily the valve if it isn't opened.
Joel
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Gary,
If this were my coach, I would leave the diesel and electric on all the time and would also visit the coach prior to and after work every day. That should help you make sure you didn't lose power and run the heater too much. I know Gerald told you to set the temperature on your thermostats at above 40, but when I bought my 1999 coach, the factory told me to keep the temperature above 50 so there would be chance of freezing in either the basement or in the living area.
Roy
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Just for info, we used Our RV last winter in the Portland OR area and even though we supplemented the heat with electric units, and we used the the diesel heater and from Nov to May we used under 60 gallons... at $4 is 240 for 7 months... not too bad.
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I still use the same advise in my 2005 and with the cost at whatever it is. Heater has turned on here in Albuquerque for the past couple of nights when the temperatures have been in the 30's. I think the cost of diesel to be much less than the cost of repair should anything freeze and I do know that the basement without heat gets colder than the exterior. I think these things are reverse refrigerators.
Roy
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Thanks everyone for the helpful comments. Sooner or later we have to make the decision and will probably winterize to be on the safe side. We'll still take it out whenever we can and just do everything over again if necessary.
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Hi Joel.
You asked what I meant by a cheater cord. Yes it is a cord that I plug one end onto the wire terminials on the ice maker solenoid and the other is plugged into a 110 volt outlet.
I beleive if you were to look at the info tag on the solenoid you would see that it is a 115 volt AC coil. The reason for removing the filter is to prevent contaminating it with antifreeze.
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Thanks for the correction, Harvey. My bad. The heat tape is 12 volt and I guess that was stuck in my mind. I did know the icemaker won't work without alternating current, but my brain had attached 12v to those solenoid wires thinking only the ice drop and auger mechanism were AC. ::)
Jump starting the solenoid sounds easier than trying to activate it at the timer. Then you know for sure it's been blown out and antifreeze is unnecessary in that line, filter or not.
Joel
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In getting ready for freezing temps tonight, I discovered the water lines running along the steel frame on the drivers side are heavily insulated with heat tape that is controlled by a lablelled switch under the kitchen sink. What a pleasant surprise, and it actually works. I think I'm going to go with keeping the electric on, as well as the Aqua Hot and see how this goes. This is exciting news to me, so I'm going to "eat crow" about the engineering of these coaches. Amazing for the most part!! Now, I'm still trying to figure out, or find a thermostat for the storage bays.
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Gary,
Not sure if the older coaches had basement t'stats or not. I never noted one on my 01 Contessa (but I never looked). Quick way to tell is to get all zones running upstairs, verify the basement fan/heat exchanger is running, then turn off each coach zone separately and see if/when basement unit stops. Main purpose of the basement unit is to keep the tanks from freezing so they are generally located in the tank compartment.
Steve
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Gary,
The thermostat for your basement heat exchanger is located above the holding tanks. It is a preset button thermostat that is set at about 40 degrees, and it is nonadjustable. If the Aqua Hot unit is on, the basement heat exchanger will turn on at the preset temperature to prevent the tanks and basement plumbing from freezing.
Gerald
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Gerald, do you know where the basement heat exchanger is located on a 1998 Marquis?
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Adam,
It should be in the area between the top of your holding tanks and the basement ceiling above them.
Gerald
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Gerald,
After looking everywhere except above the holding tanks, which I've determined is almost impossible to get to, I assume the only way to get there is to take the front panel off from the main electical/sewage/water connecton bay. Is that right? I've looked almost everywhere else! There's a register in the bathroom below the vanity, which is sitting on top of these tanks, and it's working, so is this it? Please, please tell me it is!!
Thanks,
Gary
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Shouldn't Gary have a tank bay door like our '06 does, that latches underneath rather than having a regular and obvious handle, or were earlier models different? Maybe, like some, he isn't aware of having such a "hidden" door.
The heat exchanger in ours, Gary, is hanging quite obvious from the ceiling above the black and gray tanks. The bay temperature sensor probe is central up front, when that bay door is swung up, on an isolator frame that includes an Aladdin compass and temperature module.
Joel
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Gary,
Not sure of layout for the Gillig chassis units. On the Magnum chassis, the tank compartment access is on the passenger side, about opposite the water control panel on the driver side. After lifting the bay door (3rd one on a 40' just forward of rear wheels) remove the 4 corner screws on the carpeted panel to access the tanks.
Steve
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Joel,
You've given me a very good clue, so I'll check this out in the morning. It's won't get below freezing. I also have it plugged in.
Thanks,
Gary
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If you have such a door, Gary, it will likely be where Steve suggests, just in front of the curbside rear wheels. It may look like a plain body panel, but it is hinged at the top which may not be obvious. My door has two hook latches underneath that operate by pressing a tab sideways to release a thumb piece that swings down, allowing the hook over the door bottom catch piece to fall loose. You may have to get on your hands and knees to see the latches easily.
Joel
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Gary,
You should be able to access the basement heat exchanger through the removable panel that Steve described, but why do you want to access it? There are no adjustments that you can make. The thermostat is a non-adjustable button type that is probably clipped to a water line, and it will not turn on the basement heat exchanger above 40 degrees.
Gerald
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Gerald,
I've found the access to the tanks, but no heat exchanger. Everything seems fine, so that's as far as I'll go with it for now. I'm getting it winterized early next week after a weekend camping trip. I'll then put in storage for awhile.
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Glad you found the tank bay, Gary... I wasn't sure where it might be since your rig is a much different model than mine, but Steve supported my notion. Apparently we are all similarly designed in regard to that access. Unless someone's removed it, there should be an exchanger, though. It may look different than the others inside, should hang from the bay ceiling and isn't exactly huge, but should have radiator fins that are obvious.
I'm guessing Gary just wanted to know where his tank access was, not to necessarily fix or adjust anything, but just so he was familiar with it in case he ever has to; there are certainly more components, like Alladin modules, plumbing, etc, in there than the exchanger. I know I'd certainly be curious about anyplace on my rig I hadn't explored yet, and was newly made aware of its accessibility.
Joel