BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Norm Green on October 29, 2013, 05:19:21 PM
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I have now made it from Bend to Mesa. BCS was able to take care of most of my needs. However, after we left Bend, we stopped the first night at a casino in CA and when I started the generator, it ran for about 5 minutes and shut down. I started it again several times and it mould run about 45 to 60 seconds and shut down again. Looking at the fault code list it says to look for various fast flashing light combinations, like one rapid flashing light for high temp or two rapid flashing lights for oil pressure. Well mine just continues to flash a single light about once every couple of seconds or so, not what I would consider rapid. Anyway, looking for advice. I have checked oil and coolant levels and they are all OK. When it was running when I first started it was producing on both legs fine. Thanks
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Norm,
Just a thought...check your AGS settings and battery voltage. Turn the AGS off and try manually starting the generator again. My remote has a high and low voltage setting for the AGS. Low voltage = start, High voltage = shut down. Also the check the Temperature settings on the AGS.
My generator sometimes acts like this when the AGS settings are off. Be sure the oil and coolant levels in the generator are ok. Most gensets shut down if oil or coolant is low.
Steven Link
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Thanks Steve, I have checked both oil and water and both are fine. Not familiar with AGS. Is this the Automatic Generator Start that you can set up on the Magnum panel. If so, mine is not set for auto gen start. If it is something different, please clue me in. Thanks.
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Norm,
It sounds like there is a possibility that you have an overheat shutdown. If you let the unit set until it is cold, and then start it up again, it should run until it heats up which will be from 5 to 15 minutes depending on several conditions. If this happens and you immediately restart it, shutdown will occur in much less than a minute.
An overheat condition without coolant loss can be caused by a slipping or broken belt as well as a malfunctioning thermostat. If the belt is the issue, you should be able to determine a reduced air flow at the generator cooling fan exhaust, but a thermostat problem will probably require an infrared temperature gun to diagnose.
Gerald
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Norm,
Sorry, yes AGS = automatic generator start. You might try turning the inverter off at the Magnum panel and then start the generator manually.
Do you have a generator start switch in the bedroom? If so...because I think that switch goes through the multiplex system I would cut off both 12 volt manual switches (one in the battery bay and one in the engine bay) wait a minute of so then cut both switches back on. This effectively reboots the whole coach. Be sure to disconnect from shore power before you cut off both of these switches so the coach has no power source at all. I have to do this about every 2-3 months and then things that don't work will miraculously work again. Go figure???
This will not work if like Gerald says you have a overheat problem. Good Luck!
PS If you get back to Tennessee and still have the problem go to my dad's shop in Nashville. Link Automotive on Lebanon Road. They do all my chassis and generator maintenance and are great at diagnosing and repairing problems.
Steven
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Norm,
One more thing...When was the last time the fuel filter was changed? Could be just a clogged filter.
Steven
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Thank you for the advice. I will open up a couple of panels on the generator and take a look at the belt.
I had our 06 Patriot serviced at Link Automotive a couple of years ago, very pleased with their service. If I can't determine the problem with the generator, I will take it to them for service.
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Norm,
If you find it is an over heat condition and the belt is fine then it can also be the temperature sensor is defective. That sensor is right by the thermostat housing. If you search on my name I posted some IR gun readings for the oil pan, block, and radiator for my genset with a bad belt and a good belt that may help you diagnose if you are getting overheating without pulling things apart. You should be somewhere in the ballpark with these temp ranges.
Later Ed
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I can't offer any advice, other than what I am still working on. I get a code 13. While in for coach serivce i asked the tech to check the genset. The best he can determine is that as soon as it runs for 30-40 seconds and it's controller determines that it is putting out low voltage, then it sends a signal to shut down the fuel pump. They contacted the cummins/onan service and they said to check the brushes - as far as the tech can tell it looked ok.
I guess I need to take it to a onan service centre.
Jeff
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Jeff,
I had similar symptoms. Tech found bad fuel pump as main cause but also cleaned brushes while gen set was out.
Steve
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I had a very simular malfunction. I ended up replacing the generator circut board. very pricey. But no Problems since.
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I can't offer any advice, other than what I am still working on. I get a code 13. While in for coach serivce i asked the tech to check the genset. The best he can determine is that as soon as it runs for 30-40 seconds and it's controller determines that it is putting out low voltage, then it sends a signal to shut down the fuel pump. They contacted the cummins/onan service and they said to check the brushes - as far as the tech can tell it looked ok.
I guess I need to take it to a onan service centre.
Jeff
Jeff,
If your travels take you anywhere near Albuquerque NM, the Rocky Mountain Cummins shop (1921 Broadway Blvd NE Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 247-2441) has an outstanding Onan tech ... Ken Vick ... who has bailed us out of genset issues numerous times over the last 10 years. In fact, that is the ONLY place I go given the chance ... this past summer we diverted to ABQ from a Texas to AZ trip because of a similar ... won't stay running ... issue and it turned out to be a simple carbon track issue in a connector ... a 5 minute ($0) fix.
Good luck,
Glenn
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I had this exact same problem in March of 2013. The Onan 10 Kw would start and then shut down in anywhere from 15 seconds to 20 Min. The year before I had the stator replaced and the circuit board while a Lazy Days. Less than 1 year later this problem occurred. to make a long story short when I returned to Lazy Days they found that the slip rings were corroded. I spend the winters in Key West, FL so corrosion seems logical. At any rate they cleaned slip rings and I make sure to run the generator every 1 to 2 week year around. I have not had any problems since that work was done. It cost about $250 to have the rings cleaned but that is a good place to start. I tried everything else (fuel filter, oil filter, fuel pressure, AGS and cooling) and the corroded slip rings seem to be the problem. Best of luck.
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I went out to exercise my coach yesterday, cranked the main engine, started the genset, waited for air to build up. The genset ran fro about 90 seconds, and shut down. I started it back up and once again it shut down after a short time. I was down to about 1/4 tank of fuel (80 gallons used on Aladdin) and thought maybe it was sucking air. I drove about 25 miles, got everything warmed up and filled the tank. Genset started up , ran about 60 seconds and shut down. This repeated 4 or 5 times. I realized it wasn't fuel related and when I got home, opened the genst compartment and found the light flashing 3 blinks. To try to get the next message, I cleared it, turned off the breaker and started the genset. It ran fine for several minutes, then reset the breaker. It continued to run and pull all loads, including the heat pumps. Anyone have any ideas what could have caused this? I am going to start it again today and see what happens. It hasn't been run since September.
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If it repeats, get the code from the switch. How it shut down sometimes gives you some clues. If the genset was running at speed, then just abruptly stops, it is likely an invoked shut down due to a sensor responding to an issue. If it sputters or waivers in speed, possibly some abnormal exhaust smoke, and takes a bit of time to shut down it could be lack of air or fuel issues. If it does not happen again it could be that a sensor stuck, like an oil sensor, and the vibration and short use released it. That is just speculation, see if you get a code down the road a bit if it repeats. If the coach has been sitting and it is not in a secure building you may want to check that there are no nests built in the air intake and air filter area.
Later Ed
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Thanks Ed, I went out this afternoon and it cranked up and ran fine. I suspect the slip rings and/or the brushes had gotten so corrosion on them and the Genset just wasn't runniing long enough the clean them off until I tripped the breaker and let it just run without generating any electricity.
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Had similar problem in 2001 Contessa. Thought it to be generator problem. Generator tech ran long battery cables direct from batteries to generator and all ran fine. Had been getting low oil, etc alarms but real cause was voltage drop between batteries and generator due to loose and bad terminal connections at major fuse blocks on engine compartment fie wall. Voltage at generator terminals read 12.5 volts but when tried to start and was running for the short time it dropped to 7 - 8 volts. Not enough to keep generator running! Over the years the heavy duty battery terminals worked loose and corroded in spite of plastic ring lock nuts. I replaced all terminal connections top and bottom of heavy duty fuses with washes and nuts. If I remember correctly 7 all together between house and engine batteries. No problem since, but it drove me nuts for months trying to find and fix terminal points.
Good Luck!
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Finally had mine diagnosed and the conclusion is that the house batteries are not at sufficient capacity to start/run the genset. I have 4 Lifeline 4D house batteries; tech checked two - one bad, the other poor. Didn't bother to check the other two. They are original so I guess it is time. Going to add this battery monitor from Magnum so I can better see battery status.
http://magnumenergy.com/battery-monitor-kit-me-bmk/
If sitting the magnum remote panel shows good v but as soon as used it drops quickly, I.e. if using a slide. Running the fridge overnight will drop them a lot. So I guess they are not good. Of course we usually plug in so it hasn't been an issue, but was a cause of concern on the way home from Texas especially with inoperable genset.
I'd like to change from house to chassis for the genset as if the house get to low, then genset won't start unless the battery boost is used and secondly the auto genstart can't work as it will only try to start if batteries get to 11v (maximum setting) which is well below what the genset needs to start.
Has anyone with a similar year coach done this? I don't suppose it's as simple as changing the cable at the batteries from the house bank to the chassis bank?
Jeff
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A follow-up to the previous post re. Diagnosis.....
Diagnosis from large rv dealer in texas was completely wrong !!!!
I took the coach to Cummins Western Canada branch in Winnipeg where they determined that the code 13 meant low/no voltage. From the service department:
"Test run - shutting down on code 13. Perform troubleshooting. Excitation field not energizing. Check excitation wiring. Remove panelling from generator. Remove intake assembly. Check brushes - wiring on brush block folded over. Straighten wiring and inspect brushes. Check slip rings. Reassemble and test generator. Good. check AC output, good."
So while at Cummins, I asked whether the generator will run with low battery voltage as that is what I was told was the reason it would not stay running. Essentially the generator has its own power source called the Quadrature windings and this provides power to the control board.
From a Tech: "once the unit is started, it should keep running as the quadrature windings should provide power to the control board. This should be independent of the DC Power."
I know in a related post there was discussion if these generators have an alternator and while I don't know about other types, apparently mine does not.
So although I need to replace my house batteries (they are what starts my generator) as they are long in the tooth and a bit weak, I am glad I didn't by new ones at the dealer and THEN still not have the generator work. I guess I am concerned about the mis-diagnosis as either they didn't know what the problem was and since it wouldn't start with just house batteries they assumed that was the reason OR, more disconcerting, they new batteries weren't the main reason but wanted to sell me batteries at an inflated price and then still perform tests etc to get the generator to run. The service manager and tech wanted me to stay an extra day or two so they could bring in batteries from another source.
Maybe it doesn't apply in all cases, but in this case it paid to take the problem to a qualified expert. I hope this helps others.
Jeff
Ps. Regarding the diagnosis this is what was provided to me:
"Under voltage - code 13
(After voltage regulation was enabled Output Voltage fell to less than 108VAC (90% of rated) for 5 seconds)
Corrective action:
1. Push the line circuit breaker to Off, start the genset and measure output voltage. If output voltage is normal, the problem is in the circuits external to the genset. If there is no voltage, test for and service a grounded or shorted main, field or quadrature windings (p.10-1) or grounded or shorted voltage sense transformer (p.11-5).
2. Replace the control board (p.11-1).
As your unit is appearing not to be producing voltage, this can be from several area:
1. Control Board is Non-Serviciable;
2. Issue with Stator:
a. The Quadrature windings provide power to the control board;
b. Main windings - AC output power; and
c. Field windings - create rotating magnetic fields
3. Brush Block or slip rings. "