BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Larry Lewis on January 27, 2010, 09:49:35 PM
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Hi, I am new to the this board and also have a new to me 2001 Beaver Ticonderoga Patriot that is currently experiencing a problem with the SMC levelers. Once you hit the auto level it will dump the air and level the coach just fine but after a few minutes the left side will start to settle down. I have been told by a local RV repair center that the problem is probably with the extend solenoid and that it may not be sealing correctly which could let the jacks bleed down. There are no leaks in the lines and other than this issue the leveling system works fine.
I have done some checking around and apparently the original manufacturer, which I believe is SMC, is either not in business or do not deal with RV leveling systems. I have taken it to my local dealer in Las Vegas and they are trying to find parts for it but no luck so far. Since it appears Beaver/Safari may have used this system on many of their coaches during the early 2000 I thought I would post here to see if anyone might have more information regarding this.
One thing that is a bit unusual is the jacks do not extend to the ground but level the coach against the frame and axles which I believe is similar to some of the air leveling systems that have been around for awhile. In addition, some paperwork that was left in the coach referred to RVA jacks whom I did contact and they did not believe it was their system as they only make 3 point leveling systems. They did say that sometimes coach manufactures would buy components from them and others and customize to their own specifications.
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I have the same system on my 2002 Thunder and had a similar problem. A facility in CA. diagnosed it as a bad hydraulic manifold. The manifold was back ordered but when it finally came in I took the coach to Beaver Coach Sales and Service in Bend,OR. They know that system inside and out. My problem was just an adjustment of two hoses. I highly recomend you talk and or take it to them. By the way, if yours needs a manifold I have one new in the box. Good luck, Marty
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It is impossible to tell what is wrong with your levelers without working on it. Most likely it is a jack with an internal by-pass or a valve leak but you will have to check it to be sure what it is
Marty is right about Beaver Coach Sales. They know your leveling very well, and they know where to get the parts to fix it if needed. Beaver Coach Sales is located next door to the factory where your coach was built, and most of their service personnel are former Beaver factory employees. If you can not make it to Oregon, give them a call, they will steer you in the right direction.
Gerald
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i also have the same system on my 01 beaver patriot 33 it is a big foot quatro system i just had mine looked at to be changed to go to the ground rather then the axle i was told it couldnt be done quatro has a shop in lakeland fla and main shop in white pidgen mi good luck dave
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I have the same system on my 2002 Marquis, which was a new coach to me this spring. I have to say that I am not entirely happy with the leveling system. It seems very abrupt in adjustments in the leveling phase. When you go through auto retract it is even more abrupt when it releases the hydraulics for retracting the cylinders. There is a lot of weight involved and the retract just seems way too fast. The coach manual is also very limited in its explanations as to the optimum way to deal with this systems shortcomings. I have learned a couple of things from others and woud love other peoples comments and suggestions on the best way to use this system. This issue may or may not have some bearing on your problem. When I leveled I could not get the coach to stay level once I completed the leveling cycle. What was happening is that the air dump time built into the controller was not sufficient to dump enough air to not have residual air pressure from the tank resevoir start to bleed back into the air leveling system and start raising some air springs. Before I start to level I now manually dump air to almost zero lbs. The air dump cycle built into the leveling process takes care of the small residual. To eliminate the rapid drop in the retract phase i start the engine and fully air up the suspension before I retract any jack. This helps reduce the distance the coach will "fall" during retract. I do the retract process using the manual retract button bumping it a little at a time with a series of stops and starts so as to not drop as abruptly and quickly as I would in one full retract step. Please comment if you either have the same issues or do not. Also if you have found better leveling practices, please let me know. I bring this all up on the off chance that instead of the left side settling down with the hydraulics, that instead, it might be possible that the right side might be slowly raising with residual air.
One last thing, the feet of the hydraulic rams look to me that they had a recess built in for some kind of pad material. Did the rams ever use some kind of composite or rubber pad on the feet. Metal on metal seems not the best idea for noise and shock loading for these components.
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Edward,
The time delay of the air dump can be modified by the folks at Beaver Coach Sales Service Dept. They changed mine to 90 seconds, which dumps all the air. As I recall it was a software download to the control module. I would guess not many shops have access to the software.
Each jack is extended until it hits the frame and jiggles the coach. That jiggle stops the jack. When all 4 are touching the frame, leveling begins. So you have 4 jiggles before leveling starts. The 2 jacks at a time are extended to complete the leveling process. If only one jack were extended, the frame would be twisted. If the left front and right rear were extended together a twist would occur. So only the pairs on the front, rear, or each side will be extended at one time. This will, hopefully, avoid popped windshields. The best way I have found to avoid the earthquake is to leave the coach until it is over.
Full air up before retracting the jacks seems to reduce the rapid free fall when you push the retract button.
Larry
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Thanks Larry,
I did not know that the Beaver folks could modify the delay time, that would help. It will be another year before I get back out that way and could have that done. I loved the line "The best way I have found to avoid the earthquake is to leave the coach until it is over." That brought a good laugh on my end.
I wish some owner was a hydraulic engineer and would come up with a modification to at least slow the drop rate during retract. It would seem like adding some flow restrictor on the return side line would help but it is not my field, really have no idea. ...Hope other owners will comment on any tips they have learned.
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I have this same system on my 2002 37' Patriot. It took about 3 years
and out of warranty before someone finally got it fixed. They did replace
the manifold block and that took care of the problem. I too have always
dreaded retracting the jacks for the reason you all have talked about. I
will try the airing up and then retract. Also do you guys leave your sildes
out or bring them in before you unlevel? I have always brought mine in.
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Chuck,
I have dropped the coach and aired up the suspension before I bring in the slides. Seems like if the coach is level you should be able to bring the slides safely in before you retract but I'm not sure. From my understanding Monaco/SMC wanted the coach fully aired up for slide movement.
If the hydraulic leveling system has raised the front or the back of the coach enough that the valves for the air spring leveling system are closed then you can air up the tank system to pressure but you will not have air movement into those air springs that are in the most raised positions. The gentlest way I have found to come off of the hydraulic levelers is to bump the manual retract switch, dropping a little at a time, after airing up, to give a chance for the all the air springs to come up as the coach comes down. A little delay between bumps of the switch watching the air guage will let you know how much air is still flowing into the air suspension. Allowing some time and flow of air into the air springs means we will have a shorter distance to come down (fall) and have a cushioned landing on the air springs. Ideally, if the coach lifted in all positions with the air springs you would not feel the retract at all since all of the hydraulic rams would be lifted off the axles before you start retact. That can only happen if when you leveled the coach it was low enough where all of the air spring air feed valves remained open. Hope this helps.
Still looking for a better procedure if there is one or some system modification that would slowly lower the coach on the hydraulics.
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The problem with a restrictor is that oil has to flow into the top of the jack and out of the bottom of the jack at the same rate on extend, and on retract the fluid flow is just reversed. So a restrictor in either line would slow extend as well as retract. The ways to do it are to "T" in another circuit with a low flow rate to control the retract process, or you can use a two speed pump with high speed to extent and low speed to retract, or install a switchable valve that can change the flow rate with a seperate switch when retracting the jacks. This would be more complicated and expensive than the circuit that is now used, but any of them are doable. The system designer obviously did not think that any of these design changes wre practical or cost effective, as none were ever added to their system.
Gerald
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Gerald,
Thanks for your insight, I have never worked on hydraulics. My suspicion is this system was designed with speed in mind and parts were ordered, drawings made, design put in place without some robust review process.....I'm not sure there are any users out there that likes the hydraulic ride that we have now. In my opinion I would consider the leveleing process in both the up and down phase as violent sometimes given the weight and speed of movement. I would have no problem with slowing the raise and the fall rates to less than half what they are now to make this a gentle process. The fact that it would take a minute longer is of no importance to me. A Beaver Marquis was never meant to feel like a fair ride at the midway....
Do you think a simple restrictor on the pump output and return line might work?
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A restrictor would work, but it would increase pump pressure and therefore it would increase pump wear and oil heat depending on the amount of restriction that you use. So it is a trade-off, is the benefit worth the cost.
The reasoning that I was using in the fact that design was not changed comes from the fact that the system was used on many Beaver and Safari motorhomes for two years without any changes being made. You may call Beaver Coach Sales to see if they have ever tried to slow down the system, and found a better solution to the problem than I see.
Gerald
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Thanks Gerald,
I will ponder this a bit and talk with the folks at Beaver coach sales at some point soon. i wonder if several restrictors, one in the pump output line and then one T'd off that line with a return back to the return to the oil resevoir/pump assembly, as a bypass, such that the sum of the flow was the same as before would solve the pump wear issue. This would allow some adjustment by allowing you to change the ratio of restrictors for experimentation.
Does anyone have a hydraulic and or electrical schematic of the leveling system in question? The system has some good points in that it senses the points of contact and levels the coach in increments without twisting it. The leveling rams not going to the ground for a heavy coach is also a benefit in my opinion. If it would just be gentle about the process instead of "riding out the earthquake" I would be a happy camper.
I'm new to the forum and do not know if anyone else is interested in this or have just learned to live with it.
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When I had my SMC leveling system repaired last April at Beaver Coach Sales and Service the tech told me to air the suspension up FIRST then retract the leveling jacks. My owners manual says " slides out then level" and "air up suspension then slides in". 2002 Patriot Thunder Marty
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Thanks to all of you for the information and will be trying some of your suggestions. Does anyone know if Beaver was the only coach builder to use this type of system? It does not seem like there are many RV repair places that have any real knowledge about it.
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As for as I know, this exact system was only used on 2001 and 2002 Beaver and Safari motorhomes. To find an experienced shop in this system, you will need to find one that has worked on a lot of these coaches. That is the reason that I recommened Beaver Coach Sales. They have more experience in these coaches than anyone.
Gerald
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One other person that knows these systems is Rob Pierce (SunBum RV) in Yuma. He (and Patty) worked for both Beaver and Beaver Coach Sales and both have lots of experience with this system.
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We have a 2002 Contessa with the Beaver leveling system in which they bought the compnents themselves and installed it. we had trouble with the main control pad and after several phone calls to Beaver Bend, we found out they had three of the brains for the system in the US. After we ordered it a 900USD, We had it installed and all is well. prior to changin out this part, the coach would go thru the air dump process and then start leveling and the rear end of the coach would be very high and definitely out of level. It was a pain staking process but I have to say thanks to the guys in Bend to all of the help and advice that they have sent my way. I only wished that we lived in Oregon because I would gladly go to them for everything becasue of their knowledge base and their willingness to help.
Jerry and Kay Hudson
2002 Contessa
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Gad, I'm glad I don't have jacks. The jacks on my old coach were electric with a worm drive. No problems like you guys describe. Our plain air leveling is adequate for us, except for the slight leak in the left rear over time - the auto-level usually takes care of that. Plus I'd always heard about hydraulic jack systems leaking, and didn't want them on our new rig.
The instructor during our 6 hour "walk through" at new coach purchase from Beaver Coach Sales was quite firm... "Always remember, slides out first and in last." And I've read the manual and elsewhere, when setting up camp - slides out, then level the coach; when breaking camp, air to travel mode then slides in. This is generally the opposite from what other manufacturers recommend, but I got the idea it was to establish the torque or weight balance side to side before asking the leveling system to adjust it all. Some claim that the body should be level or "square" so the slides go in and out of trued up holes in the wall. Apparently Monaco didn't think that was as much of a problem as having a leveled rig and then throwing the balance out of whack by extending walls with different weights on different sides. Our auto-level usually catches up and relevels anyway a bit later if I forget and do things bass-ackwards, which I've been known to do :X.
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Thanks Marty
I have always put the slides out first but have never aired up before
bringing them in. I have read the manuals many times and never
saw the air up first. I will try this after the snow melts here in indiana
in a month or so. It is nice to know others have the same issues
with this system. Now i don't feel like i have been totally doing this
wrong for 6 years and as was said in another post there is very few
service centers that know about this system.
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When we bought our coach, used, from Beaver Coach Sales, I was quite upset with the "ride" during the leveling process. To sooth my disdane BCS sent me across the street to Bend Equipment Repair. Richard put in flow restrictors, of his design, on each cylinder of the system. That settled it down from an "A ticket" ride to a "C ticket ride".
We do air up before we retract and air out before we extend.
One problem with using the manual retract is that the auto brings up two jacks at a time, thus relieving some of the frame twist. I suppose that the manual would have a little equalization in that the cylinder with the most load should retract first but the design is to do two at a time under normal conditions.
The cup in the ram is designed to keep the ram from slipping off of the axle pad and going through a tire. This was an improvement to the original design. A little grease might be good to stop some of the groaning, otherwise, I would not add anything in this cup.
One thing to watch for is the "up" switch on each jack getting stuck in the up position. The jacks are near impossible to visually check on the rear axle. If you think from the all up light that the jacks are all up and they are not you will probably have some very serious problems, let me leave it at that. These switches are brake light switches from trucks and should be available locally. Check them anytime you have a chance!
HWH will retro fit an air leveling system. Bend Equipment Repair is skilled at this change as is the HWH factory. If it really bothers you that is the best solution. I think seriously about it from time to time. The SMC system does provide a little more stability than the air. I would be hard pressed to go back to the ground jacks and all of the problems that come with that system. This one never makes holes or gets stuck and I think the coach is as or more stable than with the ground jacks.
Bruce
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[quote author=]HWH will retro fit an air leveling system. Bend Equipment Repair is skilled at this change as is the HWH factory. If it really bothers you that is the best solution. I think seriously about it from time to time. The SMC system does provide a little more stability than the air. I would be hard pressed to go back to the ground jacks and all of the problems that come with that system. This one never makes holes or gets stuck and I think the coach is as or more stable than with the ground jacks.
Bruce[/quote]
Cost is about $6000 (includes active ride) for a non HWH set up and they had no venders that they trust to do a proper install. So it would entail a trip to Moscow, Iowa.
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HWH used to do it (last year) for much less without the active ride but I have no current knowledge. Bend Equipment Repair has done several but the price used to be near the 5k mark without the active ride. I can see why HWH wants to do the active ride themselves. Don't you just love Iowa?
The active ride sounds interesting. Seems like many of the installations are Country Coaches. Wish one of you guys would jump in there and do one and give us a report!
Bruce
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I assume that there are no available SMC controllers left. Anyone know? Who actually made these? Has anyone spoken with HWH to see if any of their hydraulic controllers might adapt? Any options out there that anyone knows of? Bruce, thank you for your post and providing some new insight into some of the system design and the HWH air option. It is an expensive upgrade and Iowa is not my favorite...
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i have the system also everybody should look at the BIG FOOT BY QUATRO they made my system and have some of the parts the have a shop in white pidgen MI and lakeland fla dave
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Richard Boatman, Bend RV Repair, told me if the controller fails, he can make a replacement. You may contact him at 541-388-5448.
Larry
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Edward, When you say controller, are you refering to the touch pad controller next to the driver or are you refering to the hydraulic manifold back by the hyd.pump or are you refering to the brainbox that is inside the coach? Northwest RV Supply in Eugene, OR. has several of the touch pads and I have a new still in the box hydraulic manifold. I don't know of any one with a brain box. Marty
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Marty,
I was refering to all of the above just in case one of us had a system failure and needed parts. Sounds like the manifold and touch pads are available one way or another. Anyone know if a brain is available anywhere? Hate to be on the road and have a problem that there is no solution for....
Just for added information on this system my "brain box" was under the removable front dash panel on my 2002 Marquis. When I bought the coach this spring it would level up tilted with this hydraulic leveling system. I used some washers under one side to tilt the brain box and that offset calibrated the system. The coach now sets up level with this system just in case anyone else has that problem. The box sits on some random strand board, which is not an overly stable material, but it seems to have leveled properly since this calibration. Hope this helps...
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I replaced the 'brain box' on my 2001 Marquis while in Eugene September 09. The box was purchased from Northwest RV Supply. After install the system did not work. Traveled on to Bend and had Beaver Coach Sales check and found that one of the rear jacks had been damaged. They replaced the jack and recalibrated the 'brain box' and the system worked fine. Maybe others might know another place that can fix these units but I was satisfied with Beaver Coach Sales.
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Thanks for the info on the level system, I thought it was me.
Couple of things I have been told:
1. When airing up, if you have a tag axle, have it in the up position.
2. Remember the left side levels and airs up differently because of the weight of the two slides on that side.
I got tired of holding my finger in the red air release button and had a switch installed on the same panel that you throw and a red light comes on and out goes the air. I can walk away and do something more productive. The red light alerts me to turn it off when the action is completed.
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There is a Warning label next to my leveler control panel "Be sure the slideout is OPEN before operating levelers!" I was told by a technician who built the slides at the Beaver factory, to always open the slides before leveling, and to close the slides after air is up and levelers are retracted. He said the slides are adjusted at the factory at full air ride height, with levelers retracted. The slides are designed to operate in that condition only. If the slides are operated in any other configuration, you risk damage to the mechanism. That is my input for what it is worth.
Larry
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Your input is worth a lot, Larry. As I posted in this thread in January, we were taught slides out first and in last; that apparently has been Beaver and Monaco's philosophy over many years of coach production, but not all owners of used coaches are aware of it. You proffer a good reason for following the routine.
The only time we may break rank with the principle is in the middle of the night during a winter gale on the coast, when a slide or two is brought in to limit topper exposure and damage risk. I don't usually stop to air to ride height first, esp. if I have to start the engine during quiet time to get pressure because it was low for some reason. But that is a very rare occurence.
Joel