BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Paul Schwalen on January 08, 2014, 10:23:59 PM
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The headlights on my 03 Contessa will not come on. I don't drive much after dark and just discovered this yesterday before sunup when they would not come on at all. They both showed a slight illumination but essentially they were useless. I know the ignition switch has to be on but I still get no headlights. I checked the voltage at the circuit breaker in the panel below the drivers window and the voltage across the headlight breaker shows 12.5 V, however when I ck the voltage at the TB-1 buss bar the voltage shows 5V at the headlight connection.
Could I have a faulty headlight switch at the dash? In the past the headlights have not been what I would call 'bright' but at least I could see where I was going, now nothing. Any ideas?
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Paul,
Sounds like a bad hdlight or dimmer switch, but check to be sure the connections on the TB are tight. I'll email you the headlight fix that will give you better brightness 9after you get them working again.
Steve
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Paul,
I think you may have a faulty headlight breaker. They use a thermal breaker and when it is closed and conducting there should be 0 to maybe .1 V across it. You can take a piece of wire and momentarily jumper the breaker and see if your headlights come on. If that does not work check that you have good ground connections at the headlights especially if both high and low beams are affected. Wherever the headlight ground wires are connected to ground and at the headlights themselves.
Later Ed
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Thanks Steve and Ed. I plan to check out the breaker and switch today. Will post results.
Paul
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Well I think I have found the problem, at least I hope so. I have attached a photo of the VIP control box and the wiring connections to it. You can clearly see a burned wire entering the J12 harness. According to the firewall harness diagram J12 harness, and I think the burned wire, is labeled VIP ECU HEADLIGHTS OUT.
A complication that has come up in that the J12 harness must have 'welded' itself to the rear half of the connection when the burn occurred and I am afraid to apply too much pressure on the outer end. Any suggestions about how I can get the connection to release from its rear half? I hope to cut the wire back and re install it in the harness so I need to get it removed.
Thanks in advance,
Paul
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Paul,
Is the cover on the smart wheel controller able to come off? If so take a look behind it and see how the other end of the connector is bedded. I think I see that they are on a circuit board in the photo. If it is a pin on a board then you will need to be careful not to break the board. Given the heat that was involved you should inspect the connector on the inboard side if you can also.
Start by pulling all the other white connectors around the bad one to get a sense of the normal pull/pry tension. That will let you try to pull or pry and not use excessive force on the bad one. If it releases then good, if not see if there is an accessible point where a new wire can be soldered to the board or pin. You can then use some form of male and female pin or spade crimp connector to bypass the plug for that one wire.
There seems to be excessive current or some resistance in the connection causing this issue. I would only use this wire as a trigger for a relay and do the Roy Mueller modification for your headlights. That mod is posted as a link in the technical support area of the BAC website.
If this is not repairable without destroying it I would cut that wire several inches back from the plug and measure the voltage on it while triggering a relay coil with it to test if the current path is still sufficient to supply a relay coil with around 12V. If so I would do the headlight relay mod and use it as is. If the voltage drop triggering a relay coil is excessive then it will have to be bypassed or replaced. There is some small hope that if you called the manufacturer and they have had this issue they may have some solution or help with this. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Ed thanks for the input. It is raining here now so I will have to wait till tomorrow to see if the cover is removable. I did remove the adjacent connections to compare the force to remove them and they came off easily so this one is 'welded' to its mate. I don't quite understand what you mean by soldering a new wire to the board. Does the Roy Mueller modification bypass this connection to the VIP panel? I think this is getting beyond my pay grade here.
I will try the above tomorrow and or call the manuf and report back. In the meantime there are no plans to drive the Beaver at night in the foreseeable future.
Thanks,
Paul
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Paul,
Sometimes when a situation like yours occurs and the connection pin is no longer an acceptable contact to handle the current involved then one method of repair is to go upstream of the pin for a connection point and bed a soldered wire. That could be right where the pin to the board is soldered or further up the land pattern where the next solder point is. You would take that new bedded wire and by pass the connector by cutting the wire off of the connector and use a pluggable crimp connector (male and female) to bypass the bad plug. This takes a little solder skill not to damage the board land and not apply too much heat. This does not mean you have to do it if you are not comfortable with that, these are just alternatives that could fix your problem.
Roy's modification would not bypass that plug but it vastly reduces the current flow required of the connector wire by no longer directly supplying the headlight load. You would only now power a relay coil and use that relay to turn on the headlights. Where that bad contact and wire would have had to supply maybe 16 to 20 amps to the headlights directly, they would only have to supply .1 amps or so to energize the coil so that the magnetic forces close contacts that can carry the heavy headlight load. What you have now is a resistive contact point that is getting hot due to the heavy load and most of the voltage drop is happening at that contact rather than at the headlights. By reducing the load you are no longer dropping the voltage in that resistive contact point and you may find that the contact, as bad as it looks, may be acceptable in this type of application. Once you try the relay coil as a connection and measure the voltage coming from that connector to the relay coil you would have a good idea if this would work fine. One of the relay coil connections would go to this wire and one would go to ground. You would measure the voltage across the relay coil connections and if they approximate 12V you should be fine.
My assumption in all this is that the damaged connector that has been badly heated wire is the voltage drop culprit causing your headlight problem. If this is beyond your skill level and comfort zone then get some help with this. Your coach would benefit from Roy's wiring changes to reduce the switched loads to these components and eliminate a lot of the voltage drop....it is just a better way to go.
Later Ed
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Ed - just to bring things up to date. Today I managed to release the 'welded' connection and have posted some pics of the mess. As you can see it is pretty bad. After that I went online to VIP and found some tests for the headlight part of the smart wheel. All the tests I did pertaining to the headlights indicate that the board is OK!
I called VIP and got a really helpful tech that thinks that I should change out the board ($178 + shipping) even though the tests were OK because he feels the high load put on by the headlights will cause a repeat of the problem. He said I should also do the Roy Mueller relay conversion. I asked him about cutting the headlight flash ability out of the VIP and he said it is easy to do by removing the #6 wire from the J11 and connecting that to the Roy conversion (I think he meant the power in but not sure).
He told me where to purchase the burned connector/pins which I have on order. I like your idea to do the Roy conversion and then with the very low amp input it may fly especially if I have repaired at least the outer half of the connection. My plan is to do that and see what happens. I will post the results next week when I am done.
Thanks again for you help.
Regards,
Paul
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Paul,
Your approach sounds good. Be sure to scrape between the pin connections on the backside of thh board as it looks like there may be a conduction path there.
Steve
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Paul,
You might also ask VIP if you can buy the connector with the pins that are on the board side. If so that could be unsoldered and changed out relatively easily. You would have new contact pins and with the Roy Mueller mod you would be good to go. If you could not get that connector I would consider removing the pins and plug on the board and soldering jumper wires directly to the board. There are round pin male and female crimp connectors that could be used on the 4 wires. You would solder a 4-6 inch piece of wire to the board that has one of the crimp connectors on the other end and connect it to the proper wire cut from the white female connector and crimped with the proper mating crimp connector. You would repeat this change for all 4 wires. You would need to label each of the wires to maintain proper identity. If you think that you want to try and do this I could tell you the proper procedure to unsolder those pins. The advantage of this is that there are no questionable connections to worry about.
You could try and file the damaged board pins slightly and see if you can get them back to a metal surface but if you remove much of the plating or some of the metal you are creating another poor contact, so if you go this way be a minimalist. Keep us posted.
Later Ed
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I defer to my more electronically inclined friends, but regardless of the tests you did I don't like the look of that burned board. Components on it may have been damaged but haven't quite expired yet. If I was replacing connectors and relaying the headlights, I'd go the whole 9 yards and replace the board.
It looks like the short may have been between those two wires where they entered the connector. Maybe a sloppy assembler left stray wires at the entry point, some conductive debris fell into just the right place, or maybe water? I hate the position of my VIP module in that bay; it used to fill with water leaking inside the cap from the windshield, and that module sits nearly at floor level in there. Fortunately, after 6 years, I've finally stopped the offending leak with Lexel, knock on wood (or fiberglass).
Joel
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Since the VIP circuit only allows steering wheel controlled light flashes for lane changes, is it necessary? I say that because current wisdom in the trucking world seems to be that to suggest when it is "OK" is also suggesting the acceptance of "liability". In other words, when was the last time the driver for a major carrier flashed their headlights when you were clear?
Would connecting the two wires in the picture restore normal headlight function?
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My guess is that there was some oxidation on the pins and that could possibly also be coupled with some newer headlight bulbs that pull more current as things changed over the years. The contacts of the pins heated up due to contact resistance with high current flow and began to deteriorate the pins further until they finally overheated and failed. If Roy's modification is done and the need for high current handling is eliminated then I do not see an issue with long term reliability here if the bad pins are fixed or bypassed in some way. There were no components beyond a relay contact that were involved based on the view of board patterns and what was mounted to them.
If one wire feeds voltage in and they just go through a relay and back out again, so the headlights can be interrupted or supplied to blink the lights, then there are options to bypass this function as Bill points out. I am not sure if you can just connect them without seeing a schematic, VIP may be able to advise. Hope we are not confusing you with options here, just trying to sort out what is possible and advisable given your problem set.
Later Ed
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Thanks to all! I have just completed the Roy Mod and after plugging in the J12 connector I at first got no headlights but after slightly squeezing the female pins in the ruined connector into a slight oval configuration this was enough to cause the current to pass through and I now have headlights!
Ed was correct when he predicted that the reduced current flow through the damaged pins may allow the current to pass through. I still have to change out the J12 connector which is in the mail from Digi-Key but in the meantime I am once again a happy camper!
Bill - I also feel that flashing a vehicle when it is OK to pull back in your lane could lead to issues. However I still sometimes do it, especially when the trucker and I have been passing each other (usually I pass going up the hill and they pass going down) and he/she has flashed me, so I will respond in kind. The tech at VIP told me to cut the #6 wire from the J11 connector to the board and this will stop any flashing of the headlights. I am not sure where one would have to connect that severed wire to.
So I plan to live with the damaged J12 connector as long as it continues to function correctly, however if this problem returns I will either get some advice from Ed and change the connector that attaches to the board (I looked closely and it seems that un-soldering 4 pins on the rear of the board and resoldering the new connector in place may do the job) or spend the $s and change the board.
Paul
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If the problem returns, Paul, it likely will be from a bump in the highway on a dark night. I've twice had lights fail at night, for separate reasons, on our old coach. Sudden headlight loss on a freeway at night is not something you want to deal with. I'd at least not drive at night until you replace the connector, preferably both halves of it.
Heat the solder at each of the 4 pins and vacuum the old solder, or use braided copper to draw it off. The burned female connector should slide off the board. If needed I can recommend helpful video.
Joel
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Joel,
Thanks for the reply. I seldom, almost never, drive the Beaver after dark but your point is taken. Regarding the soldering issues you mention vacuuming the solder and using braided copper to remove the old solder when melted. Please explain these techniques because although I have done a fair amount of soldering almost none of it has been on circuit boards. Also, I would like to view the video you mentioned.
Paul
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One item, examine the land side of the board. It is customary to coat the boards to prevent corrosion and it looks like yours is coated in the photo. sometimes it is coated before soldering which leaves the solder joints clean for reworking and sometimes it is coated after soldering. If coating was done after soldering you can try and gently scrape away the coating where the solder joints are that you have to work on are located. Heating your first solder joint will give you insight if this will work. A 25 to 30 watt iron is all you should use to get this done. Basically you are using the minimum amount of heat and time on the pin/land/solder joint that is necessary to get the job done. This is an example of a solder wicking braid that will pull the solder from the joint when heated. It typically works better than a "solder sucker" tool from my experience.
http://www.zeph.com/solderwickdesolderbraidwick.htm
Joel offered to fill you in regarding the soldering info. Lots of info on the web that he can provide.
Later Ed
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Hi Paul-
I've been pretty much a hapless solderer most of my life. But today's world involves so many circuit boards, and I had several devices this year that were agravating me, so I finally determined I was going to find out how to fix the friggin things myself. 1 wireless PC mouse, 1 cantankarous microwave oven, and 1 TV digital to analog converter box that quit on us. All were finally repaired by my little self after watching a few of Ben Heck's shows online, and one online video of a repair of the same converter box as ours, that pointed out an inherent capacitor failure.
I modified some of the techniques to suit my situation, and will try to take some photos tomorrow for you - a picture is a thousand words they say, and God knows I am good at overwhelming folks with words. My big problem was my slight tremor that made holding solder or iron steady, and squeezing and releasing a solder removing suction bulb with any accuracy, impossible. Set aside some time and watch Ben's video, and perhaps pick a few others from his larder, and check into even more from other perpetrators re. soldering on YouTube. Some are good and some are stumbling and not so great, as is par for the course for the YouTube beast. But I got enough good stuff out of my time that I could effectively use what I learned to fix all 3 of my problem devices. Ben's were the most well produced and presented.
Ben Heck's shows have advertising, but the good thing about them being online is you can move the cursor ahead and skip over ads in the videos. Some of his stuff is hokey, but his fun attitude combined with real skill will keep your attention, and makes it easy to learn better techniques. One problem I had was I wasn't cleaning things properly when soldering. A wet sponge and a decent soldering station with adjustable alligator clips and magnifier really made things easier. As Ed notes, don't use an iron with too much wattage - 40W should be more than enough for circuit boards, but I wouldn't hold that much wattage on a joint too long; I used to use a dual-heat Weller gun, but it was way too much for circuit boards - probably did more harm than good. I like my 30W Dremel iron for these jobs, and use the very small diameter wire solder specifically designed for electronic circuits, not the big stuff you may have used elsewhere.
I opted not to buy the copper braid or the syringe-like vacuum device, as I modified my little portable vacuum cleaner with a tip that does such a super job of removing solder that I needed nothing else. That and the soldering station/vice helped minimize the issues caused by my shakiness. I will provide photos; but if you opt for braid or special desoldering hand vac, they are available at Radio Shack, Sears, and most hardware stores, Home Depot, or Lowes.
Here is one that demonstrates quite a bit of copper braid desoldering, once you get through the stumbling first part; I found no audio:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrAJpz9Mdm4
and here is Ben Heck's basic soldering demonstration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO9CHjdqBr8&list=PLwO8CTSLTkijrSW6DIFsQxcvjRo5fZ-y5
-Joel
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Ed, Joel,
Thanks for the thoughts and advice. I had no idea that soldering a circuit board was as technical as pointed out. I need to spend some time experimenting and gathering the correct tools. I do have an old board or two hanging around and will practice on those before tackling the VIP job. My next issue is to contact VIP again and see if they can give me the part number for the connection at the board that is really bad. I tried looking on the Digi-Key site but no luck. They sell so much stuff it would take me forever to find the correct part. I feel that without that part I cannot go further into this repair.
Paul
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Paul,
I see no need for this type of pin connector at the board if you cannot find it easily. Just go to Lowes and get some of these male and female spade lug connectors and create 4 short wire leads that you can solder in place of the on board plug connector. Where the pins are now will be soldered wires. Cut off the 4 pin connector on the wires and crimp on one of the opposite (male or female) connectors on these wires and connect them to the proper location. You just need to label these wires to keep them straight. You can use a sharpie marker and put one black band on wire one, two on two and so on for each of the mating wires. Here are some connectors that would work fine.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_135862-12704-770311_4294722552__?productId=3127721&Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNs%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar%7C1&facetInfo=
I like Ancor marine grade wire for this type of work and it is available from West Marine by the foot. I would order 16 GA white to match the current harness color. Where the wire would go through the board hole where the pins were might require a few strands be cut off of the bundle to get through the hole.
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_11151_10001_34975_-1?ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=34975&cid=sc_googlepla&device=c&network=g&matchtype=&gclid=CI2gzp-u-7sCFQbl7AodAWYAPQ
As far as soldering is concerned it is not that big of a deal. Not more heat and time at the joint then you need, if the solder wets to the land and wire and is shiny or similar to the other joints in appearance then you are golden. A couple of practice joints using the braid to wic the solder away and remove a component and a couple of joints of joining the component back and you should be fine.
When you cut the old connector off of the harness leave several inches of wire on the plug (old or new one) so that it could be reused with some butt connectors if you had to buy a new board at some point and install it.
Later Ed
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Ed,
Thanks for the info, I will eventually change out that connection because I don't think the burned one will last. We are heading out tomorrow for 2+ weeks of local Rallies and will not have a chance to do the repairs until I return in Feb. I will post the results when I get the job done.
Thanks again,
Pau
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Paul-
Ed is certainly right that you could replace the white connectors altogether with readily obtained spade or bullet connectors for each wire.
Below are photos of what I've been using. (I fibbed in a previous post; I forgot I did get some copper braid to try out sometime.)
One photo is of my old kit of black vacuum mini-accessories. By adapting a standard vacuum hose down, the air speed at the pickup point is pretty strong.
Another photo shows the proper solder, my old squeeze bulb desolderer, and the braid package.
Still another photo demonstrates how I took the white pickup tip off the bulb and discovered it fit nicely into the end of one of the vacuum mini-extensions, which has the adapter on it ready to fit on my portable vacuum. Kits of vacuum mini-accessories can be found at just about any place that sells Shop-Vacs. You can use braid, a "solder sucker" syringe-type vacuum desolderer, an inexpensive squeeze-bulb like I used to fumble with, or get inventive as I did. My vacuum contraption pops wet solder out faster than any method I watched in videos, and the wand was long enough to allow my shaky hand to rest on the workbench.
Also shown is my "station" that has adjustable alligator clips and magnifier, plus sponge holder for cleaning oxidation off the iron tip, and iron holder. Most hardware suppliers have them.
Click on each photo and your computer may open a larger image if you like.
-Joel
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Joel,
Thanks for the information. I will use it when I start my 'soldering tests'. By the way, I already have the attachments for a vacuum to get down to a real small diameter, they look to be the same as yours. When I bought them I could not think of an immediate use for them but I bought them anyway, so now they will come in handy.
I will keep you posted when I start soldering.
Paul
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For those interested, this sounds like a nice package, and if I didn't already have many of the included pieces, I'd order it myself:
http://www.ifixit.com/Store/Tools/Soldering-Workstation/IF145-238
I'd like to have that type (adjustable) of soldering iron. They sell a cool adjustable/digital one for $100, but there may be similar for less via Amazon.
Joel
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Roy Mueller kindly came by my coach this morning at Perry to work his magic on my dim headlights only to find my headlights are not working!! I am guessing I have a similar problem in the Smart Wheel control box. It will be checked tomorrow when I locate it! Can someone point me in the right direction please? 2000 Marquis Amethyst. Jeremy
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Jeremy,
There are several locations that the Beaver used to install the Smart Wheel module. The most common location used for the 2000 Marquis is inside the armrest to the left of the driver's seat, and that is the location used on my 2000 Marquis. The other locations that are used, is in the dash (usually accessible through the removable top panel) or the LF electrical bay.
Gerald
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Gerald,
Good info. I will check this box when we get home tomorrow. So.....not having relays in the headlamp circuit means that when I have been flashing trucks to pull in front after passing me,has sent high amperage through the Smart Wheel Control Box connections which were not designed to handle it.!
Just thinking out loud.
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We are at Duncan Systems in Elkhart.IN . 120 days with no headlights !! .
Last Friday we located the Smart Wheel controller and having purchased a new Smart Wheel Controller pc board on EBay for $217. we Installed it yesterday. Still no headlights !! The tech, Joe, looked at the headlight switch . The dimmer had melted the headlight contacts.
We replaced the switch, eh voila....... we have quite bright headlights. The upgraded pc board SM210 for the Smart Wheel Controller has heavier grade wiring but is otherwise the same as the old board SM209. ( numbers or letters may be incorrect)
Thank you Gerald. Next fix is The Roy Mueller relay upgrade. Perhaps at Quartzsite ??