BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Paul Bowers on January 14, 2014, 11:35:49 PM
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(http://)I apologize in advance for this recurring question on batteries and chargers. I have been fighting this issue for some time (see previous post) and just when I think I have it fixed, it's not.
A few weeks back, I took out all my batteries, coach and chassis, charged them...took them to an auto parts place and had them checked. One chassis battery (6 months old) had a bad cell. All connectors were cleaned, batteries replaced, volt meter declared all was well.
Today, I go to the coach, House Batteries...10.6, chassis batteries...1.4. Checked connections, to coach, to ac plug-in, and to the batteries along with water levels (coach only as chassis are sealed). Checked my onboard charging display and Freedom Combi Inverter/Charger unit in rear of coach...charge light steady green.
I pulled the chassis batteries out of the coach and are charging them at home.
Any suggestions before I take this down to the local RV shop as I am now clueless. I have added a couple of photos for clarification. One note, when I initially checked my charging status, the battery status indicator showed full. After I reset everything, it showed half charged.
Thanks in advance.
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Paul,
Sounds like your echo charger may not be working. When working, it first charges the house batteries, then the chassis units. The display indicates that you batteries (house) are at 50% charge and 14.5 v is the charging voltage. I'm a bit surprised though that it is drawing less than 10A. but that might be normal.
Steve
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Paul,
The echo charger will not conduct current to the chassis batteries unless the chassis batteries are above 13V which can only be happening if the main charger is working properly. The Echo charger may be just fine but there needs to be 13V on the house battery bank before you can measure and see if the chassis batteries are being supplied with charging voltage.
Your panel readout was not properly indicating what was happening at the batteries or they would not be that far down. When you reset the main charger it then indicated that the charge level was down which you knew it was. That indicates that the main charger is faulting for some reason resetting seemed to clear the fault.
I would call Heart and discuss this issue. In the meantime check the voltage on the heart panel vs a hand held voltmeter at the main house battery + terminal to ground. The two should agree. If at any point they do not then the main charger needs to be examined. As an aside make sure everything is connected properly and the terminals are clean.
Later Ed
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What your picture shows is basically what my Xantrex Freedom was doing when I finally decided it was time to replace it. It was failing to charge the batteries but you couldn't tell that from my remote panel which made it look as if things were working relatively normally.
What the tech support guy at Xantrex suggested I do was turn off everything and disconnect the house batteries from the charger. Wait a couple of minutes then reconnect everything. That was sufficient to reboot the charger and things worked Ok until the next time it failed. Since mine was ~13 years old and had been rebuilt once before I decided to replace it with a Magnum.
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Can't tell from your post if you are actually getting a charge, but.... Be aware that your chassis batteries are being drained constantly by the engine ECM. If your charger isn't replenishing their store of electrons, they are being depleted at an alarming rate, over 2 amps continuously. Check your echo chat=rger or BIRD charger., For your house batteries, other guys have already covered the likely scenarios. Good luck.
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After a full afternoon of crawling around my coach, including the engine compartment, I found the Holy Grail...of chargers anyway.
Mounted on the engine compartment's most forward wall were 4 components of the Freedom Combi Inverter/Charger charging chain.
1. White-Rogers RBM 2V DC Coil
2. Lyncom Photovoltaic Controller
3. A Multi Battery Isolator
4. Heart Interface Echo Charger 12/24 15A
With AC Power established and the charger panel showing a 14.5 volt charge, the coil appears to be ok, the photovoltaic controller's Red Battery Low Led is lit, Multi Battery Isolator appears ok, but the Echo Charger led is not illuminated.
I assume from this the Echo Charger has failed and if replaced, I should be back up to speed. Is this a correct assumption?
I have been reading the separate thread about which charger components to use. Hopefully the other alternatives would be compatible with this setup.
Side Note: Ed Buker - Thanks for the conversation over the phone, your info was very helpful in trying to find the rest of the components.
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Paul,
Verify that that the house batteries are actually seeing a charging voltage. The 14.5V is high for a long term charge voltage which has me a bit suspicious that maybe the batteries are not really seeing a charging voltage with current flow. When the house batteries are well charged you should see the charge voltage settle to a float state of 13.5 to 13.8V. This is a prerequisite for the Xantrex echo charger to work properly, the house batteries must be charging at 13V -14.5V.
The Xantrex Echo charger in your photo has two + leads, one to the plus 12V terminal of the house battery bank and one to the + terminal of the chassis bank. Each of those has a fuse in a built in holder. Those fuses need to be conducting (not blown) and the terminals in the holders in good shape. If the voltage on the house battery side is between 13V and 14.5V and the fuses and connections are good and the LED on the echo charger is not solid green then it should be replaced.
Later Ed
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Ed,
The house batteries are not seeing any charging voltage. I found these items late in the afternoon plan on checking the fuses tomorrow morning to see if they are blown, or not. From your post is it possible I have a fuse blown and nothing actually be wrong with echo charger?
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That is possible. The Echo charger is supplied from the house bank and if that fuse is blown it is not powered. You should see a solid green led or a blinking green is it is powered but not charging. The main charger inverter is in the basement in most coaches and that should be checked to see if it is being supplied with AC, if there is a button breaker on the unit that it is not tripped, and that it is putting out 13,5-14.5V DC. If it is not that has to be resolved. If it is putting out the right voltage you should see that voltage at the house battery bank. There is also a 30 amp breaker on the AC main panel that feeds the inverter/charger. You can reset that to check it out.
Later Ed
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Ed,
Thanks...next time you're on this side of the bay I owe you a lunch...
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Everyone...
After all the drama, the problem with my batteries not charging was a blown fuse coming from the Echo Charger. When i opened the fuse holder, and tried to remove the fuse, part of the fuse came out, the other part did not. i followed a recommendation from Gerald Farris and replaced the round fuses and holders with the new style automotive type.
The Echo Charger came to life and everything appears to be back to normal. I will check the voltages again tomorrow and see if all is well.
Lesson learned...regardless of what the manual says, keep looking to make sure system the manual says you have is actually the one you have. My manual did not have the Echo Charger listed in the wiring diagram.
Thanks to everyone for your help.
pb
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Paul,
Hope all your gremlins are gone with the fuse fix. From what I see in your photo there is some black compound over some of the electrical connections and nuts and there are others that appear not to be protected. Get yourself a can of corrosion X, shake it up and liberally spray every electrical connector point you can find with an exposed nut, stud, or buss bar. I do everything in the electrical bay, the battery bay except for the battery terminals (use the CRC red battery terminal anti corrosion spray there) starter terminal, lugs on the back of the battery switches if you have some. Anything that has exposed wire strands, nuts, and lugs, spray them. I do this once a year for prevention. It takes about 20 minutes and is one of those things that can prevent gremlins over time.
http://www.corrosionx.com/corrosionx.html
http://www.amazon.com/CorrosionX-Lubricant-Penetrant-aerosol-90102/dp/B0009E1QWI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1390109242&sr=8-2&keywords=corrosion+x
Later Ed
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Hi Paul
Note that at its strongest the Echo Charger can put out 15amps dc. Make sure that the output fuse is appropriately sized - and yes, you might ask why I know this.
Brad Burgess
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Brad,
Thanks for the reply.
I replaced both fuses with new 20A size, as that is what is recommended by the manufacturer. See excerpt, in bold, below from the owners manual. This size was also what was used, in line, before replacement.
Connect from the echo-charge:
• Ground wire (black) to the negative battery ground.
• Starter Battery wire (red with yellow trace) to the starter battery
positive (+ red) terminal. A 20 amp fuse in this line protects the wire.
• House Battery wire (+ red) to the house battery bank positive (+ red)
terminal. A 20 amp fuse in this line protects the wire.
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All is not well in "Battery Land"
Last night when I left the coach thinking I had repaired my problems, the in house battery readings were within a tenth of the outside readings I made with my multimeter. Chassis 12.45 volts - House 11.7 volts. Coach was left over night with AC Power Plugged In, all Batteries connected and Inverter/Charger On...which showed 13.5 Dc Volts and <10 Dc amps on the panel, Battery State - Full and Shore Power at Incoming AC Breaker Amps at 30.
Tonight when I visited the coach, that had changed.
In House Panel reads Chassis 8.9 v, House 8.7 - with multimeter Chassis 12.46 v, House 8.6 v.
Freedom Remote Panel reports all is normal...photo below. However, when I did a reset, the battery state changed from "full" to "half".
Echo Charger, Green Led Light - Blinking...all fuses check and OK.
The house batteries are not getting any charge.
Called tech support. Suggested I perform a test to check the F2 fuse. If the fuse is ok, suggested I replace the unit. Reasoning - to send it in for repair would be a minimum $500 plus shipping and then I would have a repaired 13 year old unit. No local service centers in my area.
Depending on what the experts say here, I am thinking I will replace my echo charger with either a Sterling, Magnum, Amp-L-Start or Blue Sea unit. Regardless, I will need a new one if I have to replace the unit. Not going to use old and new parts together in this chain.
Spent $3000 last year on this coach...$2800 the year before, Maybe, get this one up to specs and find a new coach. It's let me down one too many times, I don't trust it anymore, especially with wife and pets.
Thanks
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Paul,
Since the house batteries are discharged and the chassis units are in the OK range, it would seem the problem is not with the echo charger. If the symptoms were reversed, house batteries OK and chassis bad, I'd suspect the echo charger. In this case, I'd be looking for a problem in the charging path between the inverter/charger and the house batteries.
Steve
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Paul,
The Echo Charger seems to be working fine. It is blinking, indicating it cannot charge because the house bank is less than 13V. I would not replace it until I knew it was bad. My Echo charger is 12 years old and still doing its thing. Although it may not the first choice given the options that are out there, it is a decent unit and reasonably reliable.
The main charger inverter looks like it has lost its mind. Most folks who replace go with a Magnum which by all accounts has proven to be more reliable.
Later Ed
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Steve and Ed,
Thanks for the reply...
I have looked at and redrawn the flow on the way my unit flows and agree the Echo Charger is doing it's job. I am going to check the F2 fuse tomorrow and then I am going to pull out all of my batteries (yes, I will take pictures, make diagrams and label cables), pull out my battery tray, it needs attention, and this will allow me to inspect the cables as they come into the battery compartment.
While the batteries are out, I will bring them home, check recharge and then verify with the local auto parts store they are all good...again. Once back together if no luck, then time to break into the savings account for a new inverter/charger.
Thanks to all...
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Paul ive been researching inverters for a different problem, but i just found some smokin deals on the magnum units if thats what you need to replace
http://www.imarineusa.com/magnumenergyms28122800watt12v100atruesinewaveinvertercharger-1-2.aspx for the 2800watt version(1400$) there is a remanufacturered version for 200$ cheaper on this site also
the matching advanced panel to replace the heart interface one is 180$
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Bill,
Thanks for the info on the Magnum units.
As a final note...as I don't want to keep this thread going to infinity, but while waiting on my batteries to charge, I began to scout around the engine compartment looking for fuse blocks, bad wiring from squirrels, or just anything that did not look right.
I found a bar that had seven fuses attached to it. Most were ANL 125 amp fuses and upon further inspection, I discovered two of the fuses were blown. One was to the Generator, and the other to the DC Panel. I took pictures showed them to the shop owner that does my repair work. He confirmed they were blown and said to not replace them, but just get the coach to him as he believes the coach had a lightening strike.
He is going to check everything to see what other damage may have been done to the electrical systems as having two blown 125 amp fuses was a major concern for him. If it is a lightening strike and the electrical systems has been compromised, at least I have insurance to help cover that expense.
Again, thanks to everyone on the forum for their advice and suggestions.
pb
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Feeling your pain on not trusting the coach! We have also been feeling the money pit and besides items not fixed properly in the water system, our battery issues continue. I hope you are able to find what is not operating correctly and love your coach again. That's where we are right now, so back to the hunt. We have a Xantrex Prosine unit that appears to be going or gone....
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Jill,
Thanks for the words of encouragement. However, I am not sure if I will ever trust the coach again...but then again what are my choices. Keep it, trade it, sell it?
To keep it will cost more money just for general upkeep as the coach gets older. Trade it for another unit...if used someone else's problems, if new, heavy depreciation. Sell it...take a bath with the current market.
I know i have taken care of my coach and not abused it...the better option, I believe, at the present time, is to keep it. But, I have got to become more knowledgeable on my coach and it's systems so i can perform better preventative maintenance and help troubleshoot smaller problems before they become larger ones. This forum is a great place to start.
Hope your coach gets repaired to where you can trust yours again as well.
pb