BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Larry Dedrick on February 12, 2014, 12:14:13 AM
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To Those in the Know:
Today was a 70ish degree day so I got up on the roof to apply some self leveling sealant to areas that I felt needed attention. In my climb up the ladder I looked along the side of the roof line, on the drivers side and noticed a bulging area where the roof cap is mated to the side. I thought, initially, this is the nature of fiberglass, things are not as straight as an arrow. After some sealing, I was inspecting the gutters silicone and noticed it needed some attention, so I examined the gutter closer and realized the bulge was not a characteristic of fiberglass. The problem are the rivets, (rusted that is) placed about every six inches have pulled through, or have separated from the substructure where the roof and sides mate. This area starts from the drivers side slide out and continues back approximately ten feet.
Now my question is, Has anyone ever heard of this happening before? I believe it's not that big of a deal to repair, but not knowing the substructure design, I'm not comfortable re-riveting the top to the side myself. The pop-rivets are of substantial size and are covered over by the rubber strip to obscure them from view. My next question, should I leave this to the pro's?
Well, I hope I have explained this situation properly enough to understand, so please, give me your opinions and knowledge.
Thanks in advance:
Larry D.
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I know there are differences in construction between the Marquis and Patriot models but I had a minor separation (I couldn't see it by eye) on my MH. On a Patriot under the rubber strip are screws, not rivets and they were not stainless. I couldn't remove or tighten without breaking them, so I simply drilled and inserted a stainless screw of appropriate length. I did it a year ago and it completely resolved a nagging water leak that had plagued this coach for years.
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Larry,
The same thing happened to the front edge of the wall between the front and rear slides on my coach. Since I am not the best body man I know, in fact I am probably the worst, so I opted to have mine professionally repaired. The total cost was $700 including paint touchup on the molding and exposed rivets.
Gerald
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Larry,
There was a 6-8ft section of my coaches sidewall and roof that was separated when I bought it. Someone had already repaired another section and used some screws that bulged the rubber trim in the gutter because the heads were too big. My motorhome gutter was screwed and not riveted but the screws had rusted out much like your rivets. The construction on my RV appears to be an aluminum box beam on the backside. I say that because I drilled through an outer aluminum wall and then after a short space hit another aluminum wall. This poses a bit of a problem in that if you try to drill and go through both walls, when you thread the screw in it will hesitate catching its threads when you reach the second rectangular tube wall and therefor tend to strip out the outer hole. Sometimes the screw just binds in the outer and inner hole given the treads are not in sync in the two holes with the screw threads. The solution is to get a screw that terminates length wise after going through the first tubing wall but not reach the second wall. I tried stainless but several of them snapped off while cutting threads, just not up to the task. The best screw I could find for this task is a sharp point white ceramic coated hex head screw with a fixed washer built into the head. People who do aluminum add on structures like porches use these screws. The ceramic coating is rated for 1000 hours salt spray and they do not rust, they are hardened and do not break, the head with the built in washer face is small enough to fit well under the rubber gutter trim strip, and the hex head will not strip while driving. They look like this.
http://www.scrooscoop.com/ceramic_coated_self_piercing_screws.htm
I drilled a hole in the gutter, roof panel, and sidewall sized so that it will allow the screw threads to cut through and grip the aluminum rectangular tube outer wall and then I drilled a larger hole so the threads will not catch in the gutter, roof panel and side wall panel so that the screw will be able to pull all of this together to the aluminum rectangular tube frame. This is not hard to do, just pull the rubber strip and drill a new hole near the existing rivet you are replacing and work your way from one end of the delamination to the other pulling this all back together. If you want I can measure the length screw I used tomorrow but I cannot assure you that your construction is the exactly same but I think it should be. I went all the way down the side that I had a problem with given that the existing fasteners were poor quality and rusting out.
Later Ed
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Ed:
I also believe our coaches should be built the same, beings they are just a year apart. So the repair should work as you described in your situation. I was surprised to see rusted rivets, possibly due to dissimilar metals, I would have expected aluminum rivets. Well, regardless of the cause of the failure, I believe your procedure will work quite well. If you could let me know what length screw you used that will be helpful.
Gerald:
If you could pass along who did your work, I would appreciate it. I may possibly talk to them and gain some more knowledge. This problem, apparently, is not unusual, so some RV facilities may be very familiar with this. I'm sure BCS could have some knowledge also, I will call them today.
Joel:
Your repair along with Eds' are alike, so I will go that route, unless an expert convinces me otherwise.
Thanks so much Gentleman, I appreciate the responses.
Larry D.
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Larry,
I had the side wall repair on my coach done at RV Renovators (a BAC sponsor) in the Phoenix area.
Gerald
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Larry,
It was a pretty easy repair once the technique was sorted out regarding screw length, head size, etc. I ran two drills, one with 11/64th bit (pretty sure) and one with a 3/16ths bit. You should size these to match your fasteners. After I drilled the hole with the smaller bit I went back with the larger bit and enlarged the hole except for the aluminum tube hole. I then shot silicone into the hole as a sealant and put a little on the washer face and screw threads and drove it in with a 1/4 hex head driver bit. Nice thing about these fasteners is the back of the head, which is the washer face, is grooved to grip so they will not loosen. Unfortunately my local source for these has dried up. He was a WW2 vet that ran an aluminum tube, panel, and fastener supply out of his garage well into his 80s. Florida contractors who build aluminum add on sun rooms and car ports etc should have a supplier. The threaded screw length from the back of the head was 1 and 7/16 so it may be considered a 1 and 1/2 which I think would work fine. I have had no problems with this issue since the repair. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Larry, could you possibly post a picture of the affected area? I think I'm having the same problem.
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Ed: Thanks for the extra information, this will help.
Adam: I will post a picture some time today.
Thanks again to All.
Larry D.
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To All Interested:
I took our coach in to the Dealer where we purchased it for various maintenance issues and to asses the problem with the roof separation. The tech that was accomplishing the work looked at the problem and proceeded to fix the fault. I had described to him that I had discovered the rivets had rusted, Well to be honest, they were not rivets, but Very Rusted screws. The tech pulled the protruding part of the screw out and re-drilled the existing hole. I believe he was having some difficulty drilling a steel screw out and ended up using a punch to hammer the rest of what remained of the screw through. In my opinion I would have just drilled an adjacent hole. The type of fastening device used was an aluminum 1/4 inch rivet 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 inches long. Wish he had siliconed the hole before inserting the rivet, but he at least siliconed over the head after setting the rivet. This has taken care of the issue for now.
So, I have concluded, that Beaver used steel screws for securing the fiberglass roof into an aluminum frame, thus setting up a situation of the screws corroding due to contact with a dissimilar metal (learned that in the Air Force). Aluminum can corrode as well, but the steel goes first, so I hope the aluminum where the screws were have not corroded too much. This is why, I believe drilling a fresh hole adjacent to the old screw hole would be better, as Ed had stated was the procedure he used. Just a bit of caution to anyone with a Beaver of our vintage, check your fasteners under the rubber boot along the side of the gutter. I plan on redoing both sides of the roof line once I get the parts. Ed had used an aluminum screw and if I can find this type, thats what I will go with and if not, an aluminum rivet will work as well, I hope.
Ed, Thanks again for your help and pictures.
Adam, I have taken some pictures and will post them, with some help from my wife.
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Adam:
I hope these pictures illustrate the problem.
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More roof Pics:
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Adam:
From these pics you can see the separation. Starting at the awning, going up, you will see a dark line, this is the gap of the slide. Then directly above the slides gap is the horizontal shadow, this is the separation. In the extreme right side of the fifth photo you can see where the shadow is no longer present. This is the way it should look, if not separated.
Good luck with your coach and I believe Ed has a good fix. As I have posted earlier, you may want to check all the fasteners.
Larry D.
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Larry,
The screws I used were ceramic coated hardened steel screws. They are designed for building aluminum structures. I have never seen one corrode and I live in a salt environment here. I do not think that dissimilar metals or galvanic reaction played much of a role here with the original fastener failure. They were just a poorly protected steel screw and the gutter strip behind the rubber is a recess that fills with water and seeps around a poorly sealed screw. On the inside of the wall there is probably a lot of condensation available with the frame metal surfaces against the outside wall as cooling occurs. I know there was literally nothing left of the screws that let loose on my trim strip but it just looked like rust and not a galvanic reaction to me. You are right that dissimilar metals are not optimal but the ceramic coating is very tough, a good isolator, and is very corrosion resistant. Rivets are fast to work with but I do not love them for this application either. I like your idea of screwing the side wall and gutter strip somewhere down the road when you have time and the parts. Glad you are back having fun.
Later Ed
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Thanks Larry. Mine is doing the exact same thing. In pretty much the same spot. I'll look for some of the screws Ed recommended and add to my list of repairs. So I'm understanding you all, there is an aluminum frame just beneath the fiberglass on the perimeter of the side wall, and that's the structure the roof caps screws in to. Would you recommend laying a bead of silicone down between the side and the cap before screwing them together? Thanks all.
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Ed:
I just took a crash refresher course on galvanic corrosion, and the state of the steel screws that were removed, from an aluminum frame, appear to be the sacrificial metal. The illustration that was used to demonstrate galvanic corrosion was a steel rivet into aluminum. However, the ceramic coating, on the screws you suggested, will definitely serve as an insulator and thus help prevent corrosion. Bottom line we both can agree on, the screws were definitely corroded and in my case, severely corroded.
Adam:
Although the Tech that repaired my roof separation did not lay a bead of of silicone, I certainly would have. Also, a shot of silicone in the hole as well, so the shank and head of the fastener are sealed. Good luck with your project.
Larry D.
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Adam,
If I remember doing this repair, it was awhile ago, I think the area behind the wall structure was not a readily accessible area to put sealant on. I think the gutter trim was still attached to the roof structure and you end up pulling the roof in with the attached gutter strip that overlaps and then in turn pulls in the wall also if that has pulled out. The top of the wall is behind the gutter strip and there is little space there that would allow access. You are basically bowing the roof section back tight to the underlying metal sidewall and catching the wall structure in the process. If the wall could be better adhered I would probably use an adhesive rather than silicone. I do not think this is necessary if the gutter strip is well fastened and ties the top of the wall.
If you have this problem, you are living with an access point where water can get behind the wall, as well as wall panels that flex more while driving and may in time delaminate the adhesives that are holding the wall panels to the frame to a greater extent. Beaver had adhesion problems with this frame to wall panel joint and keeping things mechanically fastened at the edges can only help.
Later Ed
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Ed, on mine the roof cap and the gutter separated together so there is about a half inch gap between the side panel and the cap/gutter. Certainly enough room to squeeze some goo in there. I like the idea of an adhesive. I'll try to send a picture tomorrow.
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Timely thread as I was planning repairs to address water leaks in this area of the coach, of course in this part of the country 70 degree weather is ways out in the future.
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The screw dimensions that I used would probably be fine for most Marquis. As Joel pointed out there are some construction differences and I think the Patriot walls may be a bit thinner and therefor you may need a shorter screw if you own a Patriot. Not sure what you used Joel and if your screws terminated length wise in a rectangular aluminum tube. A test hole drilled through the gutter on a non delaminated tight section of wall would be good. Drill until you hit metal behind the wall structure and then add maybe a half inch of length and that should work.
Later Ed
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Regular Reader will recall that I have posted on this subject in the past. Here is my latest instalment.
On the passenger side, I have been chasing leaks for about a year. In redoing the valences I discovered and repaired extensive rot in the passenger sidewall between the two large windows. I sourced the leak to the total lack of water protection on the window installation, resulting in water migrating upward as well as downward from the window openings, getting into the thin plywood and travelling where that would lead. After fully repairing the window openings, I still have a tiny water leak, so todays report is of taking the gutter off and fixing it.
Like the window installation, the gutter was installed originally with no attention being paid to making the joint between the roof/front and rear caps/sidewall water tight before adding the gutter. I found the roof rivetted to the sidewalls every 24 to 30 inches, but no caulking whatsoever along that joint, the cap not attached in any way to the sidewall, and a gap of up to 3/8 inch between the cap and sidewall, behind which the rotting plywood is plainly visible, no caulking in evidence. Over the whole, the gutter is screwed, about every 8 inches. Between the gutter and the bottom edge of the cap is a tape of mastic, very sticky stuff, but in a location that stands proud of the cap by about 1/16th in, so touching rarely, protecting nothing. More disappointing, nothing to prevent the water being driven up from under the gutter, along the sidewall, entering the space between the sidewall and the roof, which will happen if ever you drive in the rain. (what were they thinking? We live in a rainforest, so have to expect to drive in the rain from time to time) Some misguided PO had tried to correct some of these deficiencies with copious quantities of silicone, but regular reader will recall my rants against any use of that product in an outdoor environment. Naturally, all the silicone was doing at present was to hold in some of the water that it had allowed to penetrate.
All of the screw heads (rough count, 50 on a side) were rusted. About half of the screw shafts also rusted, so this indicates water perpetually using the screw as a pathway to the inside.
I bought a new plastic strip (Camping World, 100 ft for ~ $30), Replaced all of the screws, caulked the joint with Lexel, dabbed every screwhole and later, every screw head with Lexel and ran a bead of Lexel above and below the gutter extrusion after fastening. All that remains is to clean off the slops and shine up the fibregalass. The job took about 4 hours total, a borrowed ladder, 2 tubes of Lexel, 50 screws, 1/2 a pack of plastic strip. When I get to the other side, it should go alittle faster.
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I have 98 beaver with pin holes in the fiberglass roof. My question is those who have put deck paint on roof will this paint seal those holes or do I need to take another route??? My other route was to use rvroof in Green Cove Springs Florida. They offer 20 year guarantee and I know this would stop all present leaks as well as future ones.
Thanks in advance for your advise
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Carl,
If you have pin holes in the fiberglass roof, you need to use something thicker deck paint to coat your roof with. A rubberized bed liner type coating is normally the preferred solution for your problem.
Gerald
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Larry,
The screws I used were ceramic coated hardened steel screws. They are designed for building aluminum structures. I have never seen one corrode and I live in a salt environment here. I do not think that dissimilar metals or galvanic reaction played much of a role here with the original fastener failure. They were just a poorly protected steel screw and the gutter strip behind the rubber is a recess that fills with water and seeps around a poorly sealed screw. On the inside of the wall there is probably a lot of condensation available with the frame metal surfaces against the outside wall as cooling occurs. I know there was literally nothing left of the screws that let loose on my trim strip but it just looked like rust and not a galvanic reaction to me. You are right that dissimilar metals are not optimal but the ceramic coating is very tough, a good isolator, and is very corrosion resistant. Rivets are fast to work with but I do not love them for this application either. I like your idea of screwing the side wall and gutter strip somewhere down the road when you have time and the parts. Glad you are back having fun.
Later Ed
I posted info about my fix to this problem several months ago. The reason for this post is to address an additional associated installation error made by the factory. Ed alluded to it in the above quote.
It's this....the void behind the gutter trim does indeed fill with water and any weakness in the sealing of the screw heads will allow water intrusuiion into the wall. The fix for this is...at the extreme forward and aft ends of the gutter strip cover, the factory actually sealed tight the open ends of the flexible trim. You need to open up both front and rear of the strip so that air can flow through and keep it dry behind the cover (strip). It's kinda like the open ended rockers in old cars that were designed for flow-through ventilation for exactly the same reason-namely the prevention of water build-up.
Andy