BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Larry Dedrick on April 05, 2014, 12:51:57 PM
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Larry has been doing lots of maintenance on the coach and has had a new issue arrive. He went to start up the generator and it wouldn't start. He jumped it from the house batteries and all was well. The next day same issue chassis batteries would not start generator. After much searching on the forum we are still not sure what the problem may be. I'm thinking it is our Echo Charger if that is indeed what we have. He thinks it's a solar panel issue. My question is should the solar panels be capable of charging the house batteries above 13volts? We have placed a bet in the outcome and will check the Echo Charger when we go to the coach today.
Thanks,
Laura
PS we replaced all puck lights to LED style bulbs and cannot figure out how the first two on the ceiling on either side when you enter the coach turn on! There are almost 60 puck style lights in the coach and this job turned out to be a bigger hassle then we planned for but are sure glad we did it!
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Laura,
The 2 entry puck lights are probably wired to the headlight switch. Turn the switch CCW and they will come on, if your coach is wired like mine.
The battery problem sounds like the echo charger. There are 3 versions and I'm not sure which your coach has; Echo, Magnum, or Bird. All have roughly same function, charge the chassis batteries once the house batteries are at full charge. I think all have some sort of indicator lights that will give you an indication as to what they are doing. The house batteries have to be charged; about 13.2V, before the echo charger will apply a charge voltage to the chassis batteries.
The solar panel will output voltages as high as 15+v but the current available is fairly low so i don't think it's capable of "charging"batteries that are discharged. Its function is more to maintain the battery charge.
Running the geni with the inverter in charge mode should get your house batteries to about 13,2v and then the echo charger should apply a charge voltage to the chassis units. Also, check for loose connections / fuses in the echo charger circuit.
Steve
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Steve,
We went to the coach this morning and we have an Echo Charger and it was flashing green. Larry went to check the fuse and it broke off in the holder. We are off to get fuses now. Will check the puck lights when we return. Thanks for the info! I was going crazy trying to figure out how to turn them on! Looks like I may have won the bet
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Laura,
The blinking light as opposed to a solid light indicates that the house batteries are not at a voltage that supports charging (approx. 13v). Check the house battery bank voltage and if they are 13V plus then check if the Echo charger has the 13+V coming into it. If it does then check the output of the Echo charger going to the chassis battery bank. It should supply about .2V lower than the input voltage if the chassis batteries are charged, lower while charging a lower chassis battery charge state. If the Echo charger seems OK, check for a possible bad battery. You can change those non automotive type fuse holders to an inline plastic two pin automotive type. (15Amp) Places like NAPA auto parts etc will have the better style weatherproofed with a rubber cover. You will need to get a non blinking LED condition on the Echo charger to have it work, whatever the cause is.
Later Ed
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Ed and Steve:
A little history that may be of value evaluating what is going on with our battery charging situation.
When Laura and I left Hilton Head during the Southern Comfort Rally our voltage while underway was indicating as high as 15.9 volts on the Silverleaf and it settled in at about 15.4v to 15.6v. I know this is high and I believe the max is 16.0v, also I do believe normal is around 14.0v to 14.2v. I mention this so as to give you information pertaining to our chassis charge scenario if this may have contributed to our problem. Since we have been back, I have not seen this high of voltage on the silver leaf. The voltage now, is showing about 13.4v and with the generator running along with the alternator it shows about 14.4v.So could this high of volts (15.9) have caused a failure affecting the echo charger? I plan on checking each coach battery tomorrow to see if the voltage could have damaged one of the batteries.
Today, the fuses were replaced and the ground was checked and all is good with these three items, however the echo charger continues to display a flashing green light even though the coach batteries reflected 13.2v. I will check the input and output of the echo charger tomorrow, if I can figure where to place my contacts from my voltmeter. Also will check each battery and I believe I will have to disconnect cables to do this?
I really appreciate your patience and with me on this problem.
Larry D
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Larry,
Really sounds like Echo charger or a bad chassis battery. Yes, you'll have to disconnect one of the jumper cables, preferably the one that jumpers the chassis batteries positive terminals together. That will isolate them so you can get a voltage reading on each. also disconnet the load at the disconnect switch.
You house units seem OK based on you reading of 13.2v.
The 15+v Silverleaf readings seem too high for the alternator output. If this was driving. I'd suspect a bad voltage regulator on the alternator. This may be the cause of your chassis battery problems. I wouldn't put new ones in until this was fixed. Ed thoughts??
Steve
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Larry,
The 15+volts while driving had to come from the alternator if the generator was off. It seemed to settle down to a correct 14V and it may be that the sense circuit in the regulator was getting some erroneous input as a reference voltage. Perhaps a bad connection or a regulator showing signs of failure. If it happens again I would pull the alternator and have it rebuilt and a new regulator installed.
The Echo Charger would not be damaged by 16V on the input. BTW I mentioned 15 amp fuses in a prior post but the Echo Charger comes with 20 amp fuses.
Probing the charger should go as follows. With the coach plugged into shore power and the house charger on see if the coach house batteries are sitting at about 13.4V or so. If so go to the wire that leads to the echo charger from the battery bank and probe between chassis bank ground and the end of the fuse that goes to the echo charger. You may have to hold it against the wire end in the holder to do this measurement. You should see the same 13.4V. Reconnect that fuse. Now go to the starting battery fuse holder and remove it. Now measure the chassis battery bank between the ground and the plus. If the Echo Charger was working it should be close to the 13.2 range from just being charged. If it is 12V or bellow either the charger is not working or you could have a bad chassis battery that the Echo Charger cannot bring up. If the light is still blinking with the fuse back in you could disconnect the large jumper between the two chassis batteries to isolate them and connect the Echo charger Chassis Battery plus lead to each chassis battery one at a time to see if the light stops blinking on one of the two batteries. Basically you are unlikely to have two bad batteries and you are looking to see that the Echo Charger can go into a charge state on a good battery. If the ground connection, the fuses, and the plus wire leads are all in good shape and the blinking led continues to blink on both chassis batteries independently then replace the Echo Charger.
While on shore power you can manually use a battery jumper cable to connect the house 12V terminal to the chassis 12V terminal to keep them charged and remove it to travel until you can get a new Echo Charger.
If working properly the blinking led means that the house battery voltage is out of the range of 13 to 17V or the difference between the house and chassis battery voltage exceeds 10V. If either of those conditions do not exist and the led still blinks with good fuses and wiring the Echo Charger is defective.
Later Ed
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Ed and Steve:
I will continue to troubleshoot as per your instruction, and I again Thank You both for the advice. My Echo charger wires, Chassis and coach battery wires do not go directly to the battery, but go to some other unit mounted adjacent to it. At this stage I don't know what this unit is, but there are battery cables that connect this other unit to the batteries. It is difficult to see where these cables run (red) and I am assuming they must go to the respective battery. I will get a mirror and confirm this, also I will get a pic of this unit. So. Echo chassis and coach wires from the Echo charger (with the fuses) go to this other unit, and connect to two other separate cable connections on this unit with battery cables continuing from the same post connected to the Batteries.
Hopefully, I described the wire path appropriately enough that you can understand.
Heading for the coach now.
Larry D
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Gentlemen:
I wish I had remembered this earlier. When Laura and I picked the coach up in January, I noted the coach batteries (lead acid flooded ) were spewing electrolyte all over the batteries (overcharge or excessive charging I believe) so I requested new AGM batteries to be installed. The old batteries were never checked for a bad cell, but I thought it best to go to AGM to get away from electrolyte maintenance and corrosion. So, hopefully now you have "The Rest Of The Story" at least until I finish troubleshooting.
Larry D.
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Larry,
You need to be sure that the charge cycle is set up properly and that the house charger is not overcharging your battery bank. That result of spewing electrolyte can be over charging or a response to a shorted bad battery.
Later Ed
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Ed:
With the new 6 volt deep cycle coach batteries (AGM), 6 of them, there has been no problems that I can see. They checked out at 5.83 volts individually (isolated from each other) this morning before anything was turned on. The chassis batteries checked out at 11.83 volts individually. I'm thinking that I should, the next time the chassis batteries drain down, is to turn on the generator and if the voltage comes up on the chassis, then they must be getting a charge. Actually thinking about this, the two times i needed to use the coach batteries with the jumper switch to start the generator (chassis batteries were to low of voltage to start the gen) the chassis batteries must have received a charge due to the fact that I started the engine. Does this make any sense?
Also I traced the Echo charge wire for the coach batteries from the echo charger to the unknown device adjacent to it and from there a battery cable to a junction with another battery cable continuing to the coach batteries.
The Echo charger wire for the chassis batteries go to this same device (different connect post) and from there a battery cable to a junction with another cable continuing to the chassis batteries.
Larry D
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OK Guys:
My chassis batteries were 11.8 volts individually this morning. With ignition switch on for the silver leaf, chassis battery voltage 12.2 volts. After starting generator off of chassis batteries the voltage eventually reflected 12.8 to 12.9 on the silver leaf and 13.0 volts on my voltmeter at the chassis batteries. I believe based on this change in voltage, the gen must be sending a charge to the chassis batteries. However the echcharger LED continues flashing. Could the Echocharger be sending a charge but there is a problem with indication (LED)?
The coach monitor panel is reflecting as high as 13.4 volts on the coach batteries and fluctuates between 13.1 and 13.2 most of the time. however the Echocharger LED continues to flash.
Now, What do you think about this:
I believe the solar panels are not producing enough voltage to maintain the coach batteries around 13.2 volts and therefore the chassis batteries will not receive a charge to sustain them. If I understand correctly, the solar does not charge the coach batteries UNLESS the Solar has maintained the coach batteries around 13.2 or above OR the solar will never charge the chassis. I believe Gerald indicated, the Solar will not affect the Chassis voltage?
Hope I haven't confused anyone, just passing along my troubleshooting.
Larry D
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Larry,
The LED is OK if it is lighting up. Possible LED states:
Green Steady: Echo Charger (EC) is operating normally.
Green Flashing: House batteries below 13v or above 17v. Or the EC is seeing greater than a 10v difference between house and chassis batteries.
Red Steady: Thermal Shutdown
OFF: Fuse in line from house batteries to EC is blown or a bad ground connection. No voltage detected from house batteries.
This would seem to indicate there is a resistive component between the house batteries and the EC. There should be 3 wires coming into the EC;
Red: House Battery (with inline fuse).
Striped: Chassis Battery
Black: Ground
If you can get to the EC connections check these with your voltmeter. You should read the house battery voltage between the Red and black wires and the chassis battery voltage between the striped and black wire. Be sure to use the ground on the EC (black wire). If neither of the voltages are correct in reference to what you read at the batteries, you probably have a bad ground. If only the Red wire voltage is low, the problem is between the EC and the batteries. Remove the connections at the battery and make sure they are clean (baking soda / water or a battery cleaner from an auto supply store (Auto Zone, etc). Pay particular attention to where the wires come into the terminals as you can get corrosion there that isn't obvious but can add resistance. Consider re-crimping the red wire that goes to the EC. Also, if you can, wiggle or remove the connections at the EC and then re-seat them in case resistance has built up there.
Looks like the chassis batteries are capable of taking a charge so they are probably OK. I don't think your solar panels are in play at all with this problem.
I'll email you a copy of the EC manual in case you don't have one.
Steve
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Steve:
Thanks for the advice, I will try and check the voltage as you suggested . We do have the manual for the EC, if you haven't yet sent it.
Larry D.
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Larry,
Is your coach plugged into shore power all the time? The 5.83V should be 6.25V roughly if the 6V batteries are fully charged, The 11.83V should be 12.6V roughly for the chassis if fully charged. The coach batteries being at 13.1 to 13.2V while charging is proper and just fine. When that voltage is present the Echo Charger should not be blinking. If the fuses, leads, and ground are as they should be you most likely have a bad Echo Charger.
Your question about the generator being on. The generator is wired typically to the chassis batteries and it does contain a small alternator so it will charge the chassis batteries while running separate from the Echo Charger.
The fact that normal chassis charging voltages were reached using the generator (generator alternator) and normal charging voltages were reached for the house bank using the house charger/inverter and the fact that you saw voltages that were high enough to turn on a good Echo Charger (+13V) to provide current flow from the house to the chassis battery bank, I have to conclude that it is probably time to order a new Echo Charger given your chassis bank is not staying adequately charged.
If you see 13.2V -13.8V on the house bank and anything like 11.8 to 12.5V on the chassis bank and the Echo Charger light is still blinking then it is hard to believe the fault is anything else.
Later Ed
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Ed,
Until Larry verifies that he has coach battery voltage at the EC (Red wire to Black wire), I wouldn't say it was bad. Unless I missed it, I don't think he's tested there yet.
Steve
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Steve,
I assumed he had house battery voltage to the EC because the LED would not blink without it. I suppose the chassis battery hot lead/fuse could be bad or open but I would have thought by now that he would have tested for that. Maybe I jumped the gun, but I was getting to the point that the likely fail was the EC and I wanted to not prolong Larry's misery any longer for the cost of an Echo Charger. Bad lead, fuse, or circuit board, either way it should be fixed....
Later Ed
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Ed and Steve:
Your help is appreciated. I am headed to the coach to switch the echo charger, clean the hard to get to cables from the echo charger (actually the cables i need to clean don't connect directly to the echo charger). The two leads from the echo charger (the fused leads) go to a device beside the echo charger and connect to two separate posts on this device, and then battery size cables continue from these posts to the respective battery bank. These are the cables I will ck for corrosion and clean regardless. My next step will be to ck power in and out of echo charger as advised. The good news, is that my wife and I are learning this system and we do appreciate all your help. I will keep you posted on my findings.
Larry D.
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Gentlemen:
I have measured the charge current going to the echo charger, it coach 13.07 volts and chassis 13.35 volts. I traced the battery size cables the best I could and believe I have the coach and chassis correct. However, I thought the coach would have the higher voltage reading. Overall, regardless if I miss traced the cables, both coach and chassis are receiving a charge.
So, bad echo charger?
Well Hello Dolly!!! Looked up at my coach monitor panel and coach shows 13.5, went outside to check echo charger and LED was steady Green! During my tracing and moving these battery cables a bit, could that have been an influence. I tend to believe, that maybe my coach needs to hit 13.5 volts to affect a correct LED
Larry D
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Gentlemen:
I also switched the Prosine Dip Switches the the described position first thing this morning, then I cranked up the gen and took the readings on the echo charger.
Switch Bank One:
#1 Down
# 2,3,4 not used
#5,6 Down
# 7,8 UP (where they were originally)
Switch Bank Two I did not change anything.
It's nice to be learning this system the hard way , you tend to remember better, Thanks to Your help. Lets hope things continue to operate according to the book. I have not seen voltage this high on the Coach Monitor Panel before, right now 13.6 to 13.7 volts, solar showing 14.0 volts. I,m thinking changing the Dip Sw for Gel may have had an influence, at least I hope so.
Larry D.
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Larry,
Looks like it is working, I suspect that you had a bad contact, most likely at the fuse holder. I would change those to an automotive type fuse and holder like this one with a 20 amp fuse.
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Inline-Fuse-Circuit-Breaker-Holder-ATO-ATC-PHILLIPS-Industries/_/R-PHI54350_0186941739
They have better contact area and are more corrosion resistant. You cut the wire and use crimp connectors to reconnect the wires. You can get heat shrinkable crimp connectors that will seal around the wire once crimped. They are available at auto stores. Standard crimp connectors will also work but they would need some form of sealing to keep the weather and fumes from degrading them.
Later Ed
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Larry,
Glad to hear it's working but be sure to clean & tighten ALL connections you can get to from batteries to EC, in addition to Ed's recommendation. Any one of them could have caused the problem.
Steve
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Steve and Ed:
I will change these fuses out at a convenient time, should be an easy project. Thanks for all the help.
Larry D
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Ed:
I do believe I have an issue also with my alternator, as you indicated earlier. I ran the engine this afternoon and at idle (800rpm) the voltage from the alternator was 13.7 which is ok, I believe. However when I bring the rpm to 1800 rpm the alternator voltage climbs to 15.7 volts. Regarding your suggestion to have the alternator rebuilt with a new voltage regulator put on it, would it be unwise to start with the voltage regulator first or is it internal to where I can not access it. Also, what about a new alternator as opposed to rebuilding this one. I would only imagine the one I would purchase would be a rebuilt anyway. I'm open for further advice.
Thanks Larry D.
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The voltage regulator is an internal unit, to access it you must open the alternator, and might as well rebuild if there is signs of any wear on the brushes.
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Sounds to me like Larry's basic problem was dip switches never set correctly for the gel mats.
It's cool that Laura gets involved in troubleshooting too; not all wives care to when it comes to engineering and mechanicals.
Joel
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Joel:
Laura gets involved because she doesn't trust me. Kidding aside, She can read and comprehend a little quicker than me, and with two heads working together I feel there may be fewer mistakes. We pulled the alternator and will be taking it to Southeast Power Systems in Orlando, which is where the alternator came from. The dealer that I bought the coach from replaced the previous alternator. Would you believe I was reading 16.9 volts with a voltmeter from the alternator at 1800rpm and 15.5 volts at the chassis batteries and the Silverleaf reflecting 15.8. I don't want to drive with this problem, so off with the alternator and on to Orlando for a bench check.
Larry D.
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Larry,
The 15.7 Volts is too high. And climbing voltage with RPM is a sign that your regulator is not working properly or it could be a sense wire that is not setting the proper reference voltage. I would confirm at the batteries with a good voltmeter that with the engine running at 1800RPM that the batteries are seeing the 15+Volts that you are getting at the dash or on your electronic monitor, possibly a Silverleaf. If you are taking your readings on the dash using the little round voltmeter forget it. You need to verify what the batteries are seeing and your readings before any alternator decisions can be made.
These coaches typically have a Leece Neville with a Duvac set up that are a bit pricey which is why I think they may be worth rebuilding by a reputable shop. If you are going to change the regulator you should also clean the heat sink, put in new brushes and springs, new bearings and grease, and clean the copper surfaces on the commutator that the brushes ride on. At the same time they will check the diodes, the field winding and the commutator windings and bench test it under load. A good alternator shop should be able to turn it around in a day or two for around $250 which would be a good ballpark figure. You want to be sure that they will use factory parts. There are other new alternator alternatives.
Later Ed
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Ed:
Thanks for your reply. I had taken the readings at the alternator, chassis batteries, and noted the silver leaf. The readings were 16.9, 15.5,and 15.8 respectively. Fortunately, this alternator was a recent install just prior to us purchasing the coach, so I pulled the alternator and will be taking it to the facility from which it came.
Ed, if you don't mind, could you explain where the sense wire is and what to look for if it's a potential problem and what do you do to fix a sense wire.
Thanks for your input. Larry D
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Larry,
The voltage regulator has to have a good clean ground wire connection which will go to the frame on or near the engine. On a Leece Neville with a Duvac system there is a plus sense wire that is tied somewhere beyond or at the battery isolator to get a true reading of the charge voltage that the battery is seeing. I think that wire terminal may say Duvac if it is a Leece Neville. There is a small voltage drop from the diodes in the isolator and by sensing on the battery side of the isolator the alternator adjusts for that voltage drop. I do not know what type of alternator was put in and some types just measure or sense the voltage on the main + output lead at the alternator connection and do not compensate for having an isolator which is fine also. That should put out about 14.2V at the alternator with the batteries well charged. Whatever type is being installed ask for a diagram for connecting it and tell them that you have a battery isolator in the system. They may be able to help with a diagram or possibly may not know what you are talking about. If you make no headway with a diagram, I assume they will replace the one you have with another like it, if so connect it the way it was connected and try it out. It may be that you got one with a bad regulator and that is all it will be. In the end you need to see about 13.6 to 14.4V at the battery terminal and you will be golden.
Later Ed
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Ed:
Thanks again.
I'm at the shop, where the alternator came from and the bench check did show a problem with the regulator, but I can't explain the detail the tech gave me because I will more than likely mess it up. I was cautioned to keep an eye on the ignition switch, due to it possibly presenting a problem some how in connection with the sense wire. Hopefully I understood this relationship correctly.
A few weeks ago, I started the engine and it immediately died after about 3-5 seconds, so I turned the ignition off, and then back on and nothing happened to power the gauges and nothing to the starter, but by cycling the ignition a few times, I got power and the engine started fine and has repeatedly operated fine since then (so far). The reason I bring this up is, the shop cautioned me about these ignition switches. So, I am thinking about getting another ignition switch, but before I do that, I will check all connections to the ignition.
Larry D.
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Larry,
I noticed on my Marquis that from the factory my switch when it was vertical with the key in what was typically the off position, it was actually the accessory position that is normally to the left of vertical on some of the older GM switches if I remember right. That meant that in the crank position was more clockwise and off was where run would normally be. I had sometimes turned the engine off myself while starting it by coming back to the off position. See if that is possible in your case also. I do not know if my switch was just set up that way in error or if more coaches were like that. If it gives you trouble again there are two components that can be the likely causes. The ignition switch and the big solenoid at the bottom of the two copper strips in the electrical bay under the driver seat. Both have contacts that can wear out. If it continues to work O.K. do not worry about it. The connections to the ignition are probably fine given they are housed inside the coach and electrical bay. The ignition switch has a plug on the back and the solenoid has small wires on screw terminals that come from the switch. If you have the ignition on and do not get power again, leave it that way and take a meter and measure the small terminals on the solenoid. If you have 12V there then it is the solenoid, if you do not then it is the switch.
Later Ed
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Ed:
The ignition key positions you mention sure rings a bell, never thought about that, but I will take notice. I already have purchased a continuous duty solenoid rated at 200 amps, they did not have the 85amp in stock. They had indicated that a higher amp would not matter, after I inquired about it. Hope that are correct. Plan on getting an ignition switch also.
So, now I will put the alternator back on, and troubleshoot the sense wire. I may just take a long jumper from the chassis battery + terminal to the sense post on the alternator and then take a voltmeter to see what the alternator is putting out. If that brings the voltage to around 14 I will then start messing with the existing sense wire and see where the fault is. Does this sound reasonable?
By the time I'm done and hopefully successful, it will be good knowledge toward any future problems, Thanks to All who responded.
Also, the device that sits nearby the echo charger, with the echo charger fused leads going to, I believe is an isolator with three posts. This isolator then has Three battery size cables, one from each post going to two junction posts withe cables continuing to, one to the coach batteries and one to the chassis batteries. The junction post for the chassis batteries is where, I believe, the sense wire is routed to. The third cable from the isolator may be to the alternator, any thoughts on this? I will solve this when the rain stops.
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Larry,
The larger capacity solenoid will be fine, actually better. There is a diode on the small terminals of the original unit, just install that on the new one the same way as it is on the old one when you get around to changing that.
I would try and read the labels that Beaver put on the wires and I'm hoping that you labeled them or numbered them when you took them off. If the shop found a regulator issue then I would hook it up the way you unhooked it because it was working and charging just the voltage was off on the high side. I believe that the sense wire has the battery voltage on it all the time so try and not touch that one to ground. I'm not completely sure of that but I think so. Be careful not to run the alternator without all the wires on it, especially the larger red one. The alternator needs to see a load on it like charging the batteries or the voltage can go too high and take out some of the internal electronic components, most likely the diode pack. If you have questions as to which wire goes where look up the alternator that you have and most manufacturers have a wiring diagram and there may be a typical one in the schematics for Beaver coaches on the website here. That is the isolator that you are describing. The alternator feeds current that gets splits between the battery leads and current from the batteries is blocked from going back to the alternator and from flowing from one battery bank to the other through the isolator.
Later Ed
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Thanks much Ed:
Today, I hope to have this resolved, You and Steve have been a great help.
Larry D.
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Ed, Steve and others:
Alternator in and All is Well, (knocking on wood). Glad I didn't have to work on the sense cable, but was prepared to. I now know much more than I did earlier.
Thanks for the patience and help. Larry D
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Larry,
Glad you are up and running again. The voltage should stay in the 13.8 to 14.4V range +/- when the batteries are charged up and you are cruising down the road. If you have headlights etc on and a high load it may run less until the heavy load is back off.....all normal.
Later Ed
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Gentlemen:
Apparently I may have knocked on the wrong wood, because my issue may have returned.
This time, I started the engine, with the generator running, and two roof A/Cs operating when I noticed the Silverleaf alternator voltage indication was reading 15.7 volts. I turned off the A/Cs to see if that would have any influence on the voltage, and it did not. I then turned off the generator and still no change. I turned off the engine, and then restarted it and the voltage was in the 15.5 to 15.7 range.
Whats surprising me this this time, when I accelerate the engine to 1800 rpm the voltage drops to around 14.7 volts, this is opposite of what took place on my earlier post before I reinstalled the alternator.
I'm thinking of maybe just being patient with this and operate the coach and monitor the condition, as long as the voltage drops to the 14.6 range. Could this maybe be a sense wire situation as previously suggested. After reinstalling the Alternator a few weeks back I had checked the voltage with a voltmeter at the sense wire, and it was 12.2 at 1800 rpm, the alternator indicating 13.6 at the alternator, batteries showing 13.2 volts at the batteries.
So, any ideas will be appreciated and in the mean time I will operate and monitor my voltage.
Thanks in Advance: Larry D
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Larry,
I started my engine with the generator running and fried the inverter/charger !! I won't do it again.
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Jeremy:
That had to hurt. Is this a big no no? It's not what I do normally, but I just happened to have the gen running when I wanted to check my air line in the back of the coach with brakes and thus, started the engine.
I will use caution from here on.
Now if only my voltage would return to normal, we'll see.
Thanks Jeremy
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Jeremy,
I'm not aware of any reason for not starting the engine with the geni running. Only thing that occurs to me is that you got a voltage spike from the batteries when they saw the engine alternator and that could only occur if the battery isolator is faulty.
Steve
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Larry,
There is a second alternator involved that is within the genset and that may confuse things a bit here. With the charger/inverter charging also we have a third voltage source involved. Just run the main engine and the main alternator and take some measurements with a meter and the silverleaf.
Measure the voltage at the chassis battery + to ground and then measure the sense wire to a good ground. The voltage should be the same with the engine running. If it is not then check the connections on the sense wire to make sure they are clean and tight and not corroded. The sense wire should be on the battery side of the isolator or lead to the + battery wiring and not the terminal of the isolator that leads to the alternator. If it is wired correctly and the the sense terminal is clean see if you get 13.8 to about 14.4V. With no other complication of other charging systems involved see where the new alternator sets the voltage levels.
Later Ed
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Jeremy,
There is no reason on your coach not to start the engine with your generator running. The electrical systems for the engine starting system and the inverter are totally isolated from each other, and the only connection that the generator has with the inverter is that it produces the 120 volt current that the inverter uses to charge the house batteries, not the chassis batteries that start the engine.
Gerald
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Gerald, Jeremy,
I have a situation with my coach that I am a bit wary of. If I crank the engine with the genset running it will kill the genset. I concluded that the DC voltage will drop low enough during engine cranking, that the protection circuits in the genset cause a shut down. Not all coaches have this issue.
While that should not be much of an issue electrically in general I could see a an issue with high current being pulled from the house charger during engine starting while the genset AC supply is being dropped to the charger at the same time in a manner that is not clean until the transfer switch trips open. In my case I have just an Echo Charger coupling the chassis and house batteries so there should not be a large current draw from the charger, with the Echo charger limiting the current to 15 amps. That may be tolerable.
If I had a Big Boy or some large current coupling of the house and chassis batteries I could see the potential for possible Xantrex damage occurring. While you would like to think the Xantrex and Magnum chargers have all kinds of protection circuits built in, you have to remember that they rely on voltage levels being normal and in spec to work properly. It is not possible to design protection circuits that work when abnormal voltage levels and waveforms are being supplied to the charger. I basically do not crank the engine with the genset running as a practice. If your coach does not have the genset shut down issue while cranking the main engine then I would not find a good reason to worry.
Later Ed
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Ed,
The generator shut down issue when cranking the engine is related to only a voltage drop at the chassis batteries that is caused by a high amperage draw from the chassis batteries by the starter. There is no connection between the house batteries that are being charged by the inverter when the generator is running and the chassis batteries in your coach or Jeremy's coach other than the Echo Charger and it can not flow enough current to cause any consequences with the inverter. Therefore, I am under the opinion that there is no way that starting the engine can damage the inverter if the generator is running. Even if the generator dies when cranking the engine, there is no difference than just turning off the generator as far as the inverter is concerned.
The generator shut down issue when cranking the engine is caused by one of two things or a combination of the two. They are either your chassis battery bank does not have sufficient cold cranking amps because of lower capacity or aged batteries or your engine starter is drawing excessive amperage, and most likely it is the batteries. I have had the issue in the past when one of my chassis batteries was marginal, but I waited until I had to use the boost switch before I replaced the battery.
Gerald
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Gerald,
When I Cranked the C12 my generator died. After restarting the generator I had no battery charging. I think a voltage spike fried the circuit board in the Prosine 3000 . There is a 1 amp fuse on this board but Alliance Coach refused to check it and replaced the unit with the Freedom 3000 instead.
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Jeremy,
The generator died because the high amperage draw of the starter dropped the chassis battery voltage below the point that was require to keep the generator fuel solenoid engaged. When the generator died, it did not create a voltage spike that damaged your inverter. When the generator dies from starting the engine there is no difference in the voltage pattern than when you press the kill switch to kill the generator.
Gerald
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Your right Gerald, we agree that with only an Echo charger coupling the chassis and house batteries there is no risk of pulling a large load from the Xantrex while cranking the main engine. Like I said the only case that would concern me is if a large solenoid system had the house and chassis batteries coupled while the voltage drop from cranking the main engine was killing the genset at the same time.
Actually my cranking batteries and starter are fine and the main engine cranks quickly and starts just fine. My genset however, at the end of that long wire run, cranks slowly normally and there may be some resistive lug issues somewhere in the path. It is probably part of my genset dying issue while cranking the main engine.
Later Ed
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Ed/Gerald
When I first got my Contessa, I had issues with the chassis batteries that led to their replacement. While trying to start the main engine, and not having the juice to do so, I did manage to get the generator running, then after "charging" for an hour or so I tried to start the main engine and that shut down the generator. I didn't know then, but soon figured out that the Chassis batteries were toast and the gen would shut down under those conditions. Once those batteries were replaced I had no issues with starting while generating.
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Gerald,Ed,
You are right. Since replacing both chassis batteries I have managed to start the coach with the generator running with no problems.