BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Jerry Emert on May 03, 2014, 03:09:33 PM
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The adventure begins. The storage area where I put my coach put in a 30 amp line for me to plug in to. I plugged it in and didn't notice anything and left. Had some typical Orlando electrical storms with lots of lightning. The next day I went to check on some stuff and discovered problems. I've studied previous issues on the forum but need some advice. The coach started fine. Generator started fine but Aladdin indicated no AC. Some 115 lights (i suspect on the inverter) worked, but dim. Microwave had no indication of power. After awhile with the generator running the florescent lights that run down the center of the coach came on full. I had to put the slide out a foot or so to check the main breakers. Checked breakers that I could find, inverter circuit tripped on the panel in the bedroom closet. Reset all breakers a couple of times. Aladdin still showed no AC power but did show charging voltage from solar and (I guess) from the inverter charger, (also started engine at some point so charging may have come from the alternator). I am not thoroughly familiar yet with all the systems and what works when so I was just doing everything I could think of. We used to call that easter egg hunting when I was a Navy electronics tech.
Can't get the slide back in now but I think I just need to get the batteries charged up enough to pull it in. Batteries show that are drained pretty much all the way through all of this.
I found the transfer switch but didn't have the tools to open it up. It is mounted in one of the bays with an unmarked gray Box, maybe a junction box, next to it. The inverter is mounted in the ceiling. The reset ( I think) button on the inverter was not tripped. I saw a red light flashing, I think it flashed once then delay then once again, but it stopped so by the time I figured out it was a fault indicator it wasn't doing it anymore.
I hope I'm making sense in my ramblings. The storage lot electrician of course says that their hook up is fine. What do you all think? Electrical hookup? Lightning?
Any thoughts about what I should check before I call someone to come fix or tow?
Added thoughts: as I understand the function of a transfer switch. if it goes bad it will still pass 115 through one of the sources such as shore power or genset power. Which ever it happened to stick on (relay that was closed at the time.) This does not seem to be passing anything.
In short...HELP!
Thanks for your patience.
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Make sure that the "new" 30amp plug is wired for 120volts and not 240volts. Hopefully you measured it before you plugged in.
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Make sure that the "new" 30amp plug is wired for 120volts and not 240volts. Hopefully you measured it before you plugged in.
Color me a Dumb A--. I knew it was done by a licensed electrician and I did not have a meter with long enough leads to go all the way into the metal conductor in the plug. Expensive lessons are often the best teachers.
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Jerry,
If you are having trouble determining what is wrong with your coach, call me when you have a meter, and get back to your coach. I will walk you through the trouble shooting process.
One thing that I would strongly suggest is installing a Surge Guard, if you do not already have one, to protect your coach from lighting strikes as well as improperly wired shore power plugs.
Gerald
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Jerry,
If you are having trouble determining what is wrong with your coach, call me when you get have a meter, and get back to your coach. I will walk you through the trouble shooting process.
One thing that I would strongly suggest is installing a Surge Guard, if you do not already have one, to protect your coach from lighting strikes as well as improperly wired shore power plugs.
Gerald
Thanks Gerald, I'll call later when I can get there. I have a 50 amp but the storage lot surprised me and set it up as a 30 amp. I ordered a 30 amp and it arrives today. A little late I guess.
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Update, the storage lot electrician admitted to wiring a 115 leg to the neutral by mistake. I'm claiming it on my insurance. As Gerald Knows it fried the shore power side of the transfer switch and most probably the inverter. My next question is what should I look for in the coach before I close out the claim. The inverter circuit breaker was tripped but the main was not. Since the inverter breaker was not quick enough to protect the inverter what else may be fried also?
Any advice or comments are appreciated, thanks again Gerald for going above and beyond by coaching me over the phone.
Jerry
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Jerry,
A friend had a very similar issue happen and many appliances were also damaged in the process. Check the microwave, a/c's, TV's, DVD player, Aladdin system and Aqua-Hot for problems. If you replace your inverter/charger, I would recommend the Magnum pure sine wave as a replacement.
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Thanks Karl, the problem blew two fuses to the Aladdin system that I found while trouble shooting. Once I replace the fuses I'll be able to check it. I'm worried about all the other stuff you mentioned. I can't think of a way to test all of that without jumping around the switch and inverter. I'm not too familiar with the inverter so I'm not even sure where the output is and it's in a tight spot in the overhead. trying to find a mobil service that can come out and give me an estimate. Thanks for your thoughts.
Jerry
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Jerry,
Where is your motorhome located? Also, forgot that my friends Norcold refrigerator's control unit got fried during this event.
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Jerry,
Since your coach received 240 volts from the miss wired box, anything in the coach that operates on 120 volts could have sustained damage. However, you will not be able to check the 120 volt equipment in the coach until you repair the transfer switch, or run jumper wires to bypass it.
As soon as you get 120 volt service into the coach you should be able to determine the extent of the damage. The bypass relays in the inverter will probably still let the 120 volt circuits run through it function even if the inverter has failed. However, you will need to talk to the insurance adjuster before you start replacing items.
Gerald
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Jerry,
This kind of voltage event will produce electronic units that are bad and have failed, units that are damaged and will fail, and units that have tolerated the event and are robust enough that they will not fail. You need to test each electrical item in the coach once you can get the inverter and transfer switch replaced. Once you are back online, things like the TV, run it for a full day, if you have a satellite system or a DVD player, same routine. Things like a microwave you cannot run a day but you can reset the clock and boil water half a dozen times. Put an hour or two on the generator with a load. Basically if a unit has circuitry in it you need to run a test of a rational duration to see if a fail is eminent and that all electrical items still function.
Make a list of what you will be testing, share it with your agent and tell him this is what is needed to replace now to get you online. Once online you will test the remaining electronic items over several weeks. If you get through this test and replace any failing items you should have the vast majority of your problem closed out. Your agent should be happy with an end date and a method to close out your claim. He should understand that you need to run items for some period to test and assure they are not damaged.
Later Ed
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Hey Jerry
I dont claim to be the expert here so there are better opinions than mine. I did heve a similar expeience once on an older gas coach. The retiring owner had supplied an extension cord that seemed brand new. I never thought to check it until I was at a total loss for ideas. It only looked new and when he rewired the new ends I had 110 on ground. The chassis was giving low level shocks as was the metal roof.
In your case since the pwoer was to the neutral which often interacts with the ground bar in the panel, I would be very careful before just ruling out all the 12V system sensors, computers and relays. Problems there may be less likely but before closing any insurance claim out I would have everything checked or at least call Beaver Coach Sales (1-800-382-2597) and see if their electronics guy had more insight.
Meantime individual units like TV's or Microwaves and so on could be tested off a seperate 110 extension cord run in from outside and plugged in directly.
We are pulling for ya Chief and just know that the other fellas on here know these coaches well.
All our best
Keith and Carol Moffett
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Jerry,
Keith is right and I should have been a little clearer when I said test everything with circuitry. The neutral and grounds may be tied together somewhere in these coaches which means the frame of the coach would have seen 120V AC swings when referenced to the +12V DC on the DC side of the electronics. That is not to say that anything is bad, just it should all be tested and run to be sure everything is working. The fewer things that are bad that you find, the better you should feel about all this as far as what may have been damaged.
later Ed
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Until your coach is operational, you could run an extension cord to most of the appliances individually to test them one at a time.
Larry
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Gerald and others...
As a learning experience...would a Surge Guard have protected the system components from damage in this situation? I operated last year without one and I'm now learning that was a big mistake. Fortunately I suffered no damage but it seems, at $300, like a cheap piece of insurance for my 90 vintage Beav. Also, will a 50amp Surge Guard provide the same protection if plugged into a 30 amp service using an adapter? I was in several parks last summer where the only available spaces were 30 amp. I used the adapter and everything worked fine as long as I only ran 1 AC unit.
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Mark,
A 50 amp Surge Guard surge protector will not connect your coach if there is anything about the shore power source that is out of its specification guidelines. In the case of Jerry's coach, he had power on the incoming neutral leg, and that is out of specifications for the Surge Guard. Therefore a Surge Guard would not have allowed the coach to connect to the power source, and no damage would have occurred.
I have a Surge Guard 34560 hardwired into my coach, so all power coming into the coach from a shore power source has to go through it. It does not matter whether it is from a 30 amp plug or a 50 amp plug, all power has to be within specifications or it will not connect. If the shore power source has excessively hi or low voltage, power on the neutral leg, or power on the ground leg, it will not complete the connection.
Gerald
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Mark,
This chart shows the features of each unit that is made by Surge Guard. You would want a 50amp either portable (they make a lock for that) or a unit that is permanently installed within the coach wiring. Either the 34750 or the 34560 would have protected someone from a miswired pedestal among other things. The unit would also protect the RV if using a 30 amp adapter. The added feature that may come into play is low voltage cut out if the 30 amp source had too much voltage drop. The version that is permanently installed has an advantage in that it can be installed after the transfer switch so that protection is in place if your house generator decided to go voltage wonky on you. (I can use wonky if I want) The prime need is when you are tied to the outside world at a power source so the portable version will eliminate most sources of concern.
http://trci.net/products/surge-guard-rv/comparison-charts
Just posted and it looks like Gerald beat me to it...
Later Ed
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Thank you everybody!! The storage lot admitted their mistake and are cooperating with me so far. They are going to submit to their insurance company so that should be a joy in itself. A RV tech. I know, the guy that rebuilt the control system for my SMS (I think) hydraulic leveling system, is going to come and asses the coach and all the systems Sat. I will relay all the advice and do a lot of the checking myself as you all suggest. I'm getting a heck of an indoc into the electrical systems in my coach and into the joys of a DP. At least we had one short 2 day trip before all this happened. Thanks again.
Jerry
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Jerry
I had the engine colant changed to ELC done at a radiator shop today and your situation came up. This service tech is a retired (twice) radiator guy and they keep bringing him back so he is very knowledgeable and a good guy. He told me that the minute the power polarity is off it changes the electrolight in your coolant and creates an electrolosys that can eat the seals in the radiator breaking down solder joints and aluminum housing. By example he showed me a radiator cap that comes with a sacrificial annode that goes in the radiator. It was ruined in days due to this problem.
Suffice it to say that with the cost of our radiator systems it might do well to have the system pressure tested and the coolant flushed and changed.
Sorry to add to your headache but I wanted to give you a heads up.
Best
Keith
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Jerry
I had the engine colant changed to ELC done at a radiator shop today and your situation came up. This service tech is a retired (twice) radiator guy and they keep bringing him back so he is very knowledgeable and a good guy. He told me that the minute the power polarity is off it changes the electrolight in your coolant and creates an electrolosys that can eat the seals in the radiator breaking down solder joints and aluminum housing. By example he showed me a radiator cap that comes with a sacrificial annode that goes in the radiator. It was ruined in days due to this problem.
Suffice it to say that with the cost of our radiator systems it might do well to have the system pressure tested and the coolant flushed and changed.
Sorry to add to your headache but I wanted to give you a heads up.
Best
Keith
Too bad you can't hear me laughing like an insane person! I will add that to the list. Is there any documentation of this issue that I can present to the insurance company? That would really help. Something official so they can't wiggle out of covering it. A phone number and name of the radiator tech if nothing else. Thanks even if it did make my wife come running to see what was wrong with me.
Jerry
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Keith and Jerry,
Electrolysis, if it was involved, does not happen in the time that Jerry was plugged in to the hot neutral line. I do not think he has anything to worry about in that regard. If there is any doubt about the coolant, and it is not on schedule to be changed as a normal maintenance interval, a sample can be pulled for analysis to see if it is beyond its useful life.
Later Ed
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Ed and Jerry
The radiator guy (Dave) told me just as I posted it above. I do believe you are right Ed about the durration not being long enough but the amperage being so high would worry me over weakened joints. That is why I suggested a pressure test to reveal any weakened points before they become a problem at the worst moment.
As far as the documentation on this, any radiator shop should tell you the same and be happy to do the test. While they worked on ours I asked him to do an inspection on all the hoses too. What the heck he was under there anyway.
Keith
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Jerry, aren't you near Orlando, Florida? IF so, consider drivingthe rig up to Alliance in Wildwood and having them do the entire repair. They can replace the inverter, tranfer switch and whatever 12volt systems that have been fried.
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Jerry and Keith,
Electrolysis can occur if the antifreeze becomes too acid and you have primarily aluminum components but it is a DC current that is set up which migrates the aluminum ions and over time erodes and thins the aluminum. Here Jerry had AC voltage applied, so a potential that migrated ions in one direction is unlikely and it all was for a pretty short duration. I would not even venture a guess if there was any potential difference between the solution and the radiator metals in Jerry's case, in theory they should have had the same voltage given the radiator is grounded to the frame and the solution is in contact with the grounded metal. I would be far more worried about the electrical side of things and not be alarmed about the cooling system.
Keith it is a good that you brought up the coolant system to Jerry, having the coolant serviced as needed, so that it maintains the right additive package and chemical balance is required so that it does not allow corrosion and cavitation. Your check of the hoses is also a good idea.
If Jerry can get the electrical gremlins to leave his coach I think he will be in good shape.
Late Ed
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Again, thank you all. I just bought the MH and there were no maint. records. The dealer had a complete LOF change which I know was flawed because they didn't replace the coolant filter or the fuel filters. It is going back to the dealer to finish up what they promised and I will have them do this work also. They gave me what I thought was a great deal and fixed everything I could find along with stuff they found also. They are going to get a chance for the service business. I am learning more and more everyday and will have the coolant analyzed as soon as I can. Again my thanks to all I am reading and learning daily.
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Jerry
After four coaches and several towables I have come to the conclusion that no used RV is perfect. In fact I hear that brand new ones are often back at the dealer for the first year. Dont be disuaded by the overwhelming situation you find yourself in right now. All of my advice to you and I bet much of that from others is intended to be cautionary. That is 'look it over realy good' now so you dont get stuck with a problem later. All these bits of advice become just too much sometimes.
Dont worry about it too much. You will have many years to get all this stuff fixed so as long as it starts and runs and stops when it should you are on the right track. I dont know any MH'er that doesnt have a to do list.
Just get past the insurance part and go make the headache worth the while. All my problems just seem to drop off as we are rolling down the road.
Hope to see you down the road
Keith
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Update:
RV tech came out and verified that the transfer switch is bad which I knew. The inverter is good now which it wasn't when Gerald was coaching me through the troubleshooting procedure. Maybe it just needed to rest for awhile. everything in the coach seems to work except my family radio charger stand. Tested one of the TVs, microwave, all the plugs and fridge. I'll go out tomorrow and test the other TV and the hot water elec element. Then try to figure out how to test the aquahot. Any other suggestions?
Thanks
Jerry
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My last post was not the end of the story! The inverter was actually bad. We were fooled because the inverting function still worked which fooled us into thinking everything worked. The 115 pass through function would not function so I was running off the batteries and of course the charger function was also so fried so I'm lucky Gerald was there via telephone to actually help me realize the problem before the brand new batteries were toast.
Today, we replaced the inverter with a Magnum MS-2812 2800 watt pure sine inverter, new control module and battery temp sensor. Tomorrow we will add the automatic gen start module and coach temp sensor.
Now the question, was there a separate gen start module on the old xantrex 2500 watt inverter and where the heck is it?
Thanks in advance for the help.
Jerry