BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Les Brandt on June 20, 2014, 04:27:05 AM
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We just bought our new to us 2001 40' Beaver Patriot Monticello 330hp.
I have tried only as suggested to turn on the Hydro Hot diesel side. Our unit is a HydroHot Model HHE 500-4M.
It doesn't fire up and I don't have a clue where to start. Some lights come on the panel, but I have no idea what I'm doing? I don't even know the basics. I have always owned hot water tanks and furnaces.
Can anyone help with where to start a diagnosis?
Some help would be appreciated!
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Start by making sure it is full of antifreeze. There is a low level switch that stops it from working.
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We just bought our new to us 2001 40' Beaver Patriot Monticello 330hp.
I have tried only as suggested to turn on the Hydro Hot diesel side. Our unit is a HydroHot Model HHE 500-4M.
It doesn't fire up and I don't have a clue where to start. Some lights come on the panel, but I have no idea what I'm doing? I don't even know the basics. I have always owned hot water tanks and furnaces.
Can anyone help with where to start a diagnosis?
Some help would be appreciated!
Les,
Here is a link to the Hydrohot guru, you can download the manual for your unit or jump on there and ask Roger any question.
http://forum.rvhydronicheaterrepair.com/forum.php
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Start by making sure it is full of antifreeze. There is a low level switch that stops it from working.
Thanks Bill.
Checked that. Level is up to normal.
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Les,
Here is a link to the Hydrohot guru, you can download the manual for your unit or jump on there and ask Roger any question.
http://forum.rvhydronicheaterrepair.com/forum.php
Thanks Lee.
I have become a member of his forum. I just haven't delved in with both feet.
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Les,
The folks in this forum can and will have the answer to probably any question you could have about a Beaver Coach. Somebody in here has had the problem before and can give the answer.
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Note which lamps are lit up on the controller panel on the wall in the HydroHot bay and let us know. It may help those here trying to ferret out an answer. Roger's forum can help, but the BAC has a member, Orman Claxton, more than a little familiar with these oft-cantankerous devices.
Joel
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Thanks Joel and Lee. I'll look more into it on the weekend and post what I find. I'm not yet retired and still have the "other thing" to do.
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Hi Les,
You said that the coolent level was "up to normal" which sort of leads me to believe you were checking the level in the expansion tank. Sometimes you can have fluid in the expansion tank but the level is down inside the burner unit itself. You need to take off the radiator cap on the top of the Hydro Hot unit itself and check. It should be completely full, right up to the top.
You also need to check specifically what lights are showing on the control panel in the bay. A very common fault is that you will find the "low voltage" light illuminated. That can happen when the batteries get too low or sometimes if you have a momentary loss of DC voltage. Next to that light is a small hole in the panel that should be labled "reset". You can use a paperclip to push - gently - the reset button.
If one or the other of those doesn't solve the problem, read the troubleshooting section in the manual that Lee sent you the link to. It's pretty easy to use and you can always ask more questions here on the forum. Several of us have had cause to dive pretty deeply into Hydro Hot issues.
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Hi Les,
You said that the coolent level was "up to normal" which sort of leads me to believe you were checking the level in the expansion tank. Sometimes you can have fluid in the expansion tank but the level is down inside the burner unit itself. You need to take off the radiator cap on the top of the Hydro Hot unit itself and check. It should be completely full, right up to the top.
You also need to check specifically what lights are showing on the control panel in the bay. A very common fault is that you will find the "low voltage" light illuminated. That can happen when the batteries get too low or sometimes if you have a momentary loss of DC voltage. Next to that light is a small hole in the panel that should be labled "reset". You can use a paperclip to push - gently - the reset button.
If one or the other of those doesn't solve the problem, read the troubleshooting section in the manual that Lee sent you the link to. It's pretty easy to use and you can always ask more questions here on the forum. Several of us have had cause to dive pretty deeply into Hydro Hot issues.
Thanks Jay. I'll have a look. That's exactly right. I looked at the reserve tank.
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Hi Les,
You said that the coolent level was "up to normal" which sort of leads me to believe you were checking the level in the expansion tank. Sometimes you can have fluid in the expansion tank but the level is down inside the burner unit itself. You need to take off the radiator cap on the top of the Hydro Hot unit itself and check. It should be completely full, right up to the top.
You also need to check specifically what lights are showing on the control panel in the bay. A very common fault is that you will find the "low voltage" light illuminated. That can happen when the batteries get too low or sometimes if you have a momentary loss of DC voltage. Next to that light is a small hole in the panel that should be labled "reset". You can use a paperclip to push - gently - the reset button.
If one or the other of those doesn't solve the problem, read the troubleshooting section in the manual that Lee sent you the link to. It's pretty easy to use and you can always ask more questions here on the forum. Several of us have had cause to dive pretty deeply into Hydro Hot issues.
I took the radiator cap off and it was full to the top. I tried pushing the reset with a paper clip and it didn't do anything. I noted when I had the electric button pushed inside that the red low battery light was on. I know my batteries have been low.
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Les
First thing, solve the Battery problem. Call me if you wish
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Les
First thing, solve the Battery problem. Call me if you wish
Thanks Orman! I had the batteries checked today. Fully charged. I will give a call tomorrow AM.
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In speaking with Orman, we did some diagnosis. We tried resetting. Low Battery Fault still on. I disconnected the panel and reconnected. Low Battery Fault still on. I tested my batteries and they showed 12.6 on my meter. I tested power at the panel. It showed 13.6.
Orman suggests I need a new AQUA HOT/HYDRO HOT CONTROL BOARD - ELE-PC4-008. Anyone got a line on a reasonable priced one? I found two on eBay from $175-$325.
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Here is a picture of the board.
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Les
the correct part # is ELE-PC4-010-AA , Price is more like $400+
part # you have is the old #
Probably a used #,
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Orman,
The two that I found are the same part number as what mine is. One is a new part and the other is a used. It's my understanding that the model you described ELE-PC4-010 is the latest but must be modified to suit ELE-PC4-008.
Would it not make sense to get the exact model if available?
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Les
No Modification, all the same,
Buy the cheaper one
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Les this is the board I have. $200 which would include priority shipping.
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Les this is the board I have. $200 which would include priority shipping.
Thanks Bob. Yours is a ELE-PC4-009. Not sure if it'll work. I'll do some homework.
Orman, what do you think?
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Yes, It will work,
If is one of the updates
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I did get on the Hydro Hot Guru's website and Roger confirmed as Orman did. My panel needs replacing. (Not that I questioned you Orman, he just took longer to answer my thread question).
He had me unplug all 4 wire harnesses from the panel. He said that if I unplugged all 4 and the low battery fault light stayed on, it would confirm my panel would need to be replaced. I thought I would pass this info on.
I may not be finished with the issues yet, we'll see what happens after the controller panel is replaced, but I'd like to thank you all, especially Orman, for taking the time to help thus far.
Bob, I sent you a PM regarding your panel offer.
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Bob Jae is sending me his spare panel. Thanks Bob!
Hopefully all will be well.
I'll keep the thread posted.
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Well the new controller panel from Bob worked. No more "low battery fault" light.
When I hit the interior diesel switch in the kitchen, I heard a "whir" sound for about a minute and then it quit. What else should happen? Do I sit and wait for hot water? If so, how long? What else should the unit be doing? Should it continue to "whir" till the water is hot?
Man.....I feel like such a Greenhorn, but I've never had one of these systems and I don't know what to expect.
I turned on my water pump and one of the interior heaters so that it would call for heat. Not sure if that's required or if it just heats up.
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He is what the panel is showing for lights. (See photo)
Heating Status
Pump #3
Diesel- Burner Status
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Les,
Turn the diesel switch off, then back on... You should hear the burner turn on after the wir sound... Go outside to the exhaust pipe and see what is going on. Is it smoking, is it blowing air or is nothing coming out?
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I took the Hydro Hot cover off. It's the blower motor that's making the noise. Air is blowing out the exhaust. The burner doesn't fire up after that blower shuts off.
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Les,
Is the light on the diesel switch flashing after the blower motor quits running? Is there any smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe? If the light is flashing on the switch, turn it off then on again. Do you have at least a 1/2 full tank of fuel?
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Lucky me. The light is burnt out on the diesel switch. Can't tell if it's flashing!
No smoke coming out of the exhaust. Just over 1/2 tank of fuel.
I was told I may need to cycle it a few times as it hasn't been running for a long time and may be starved for fuel.
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Les,
Yes, that is true. Try it a few more times and see if the igniter fires. The light just goes out on the switch and does not flash. This normally is an indication of no fuel in the lines and will take a few tries to get it to fire. Has the nozzle and filter been changed recently. Those could also be causing you this kind of problem.
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I haven't done a thing to it yet. I needed to replace the controller panel.
Now the diagnostics start. I might just take it in for a service but I thought I would elicit the wisdom of you kind and knowledgeable Sirs on this forum first before pushing more moola out of my wallet.
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Okay, so I replaced the controller panel. No more low battery voltage fault. I ordered a new filter and fuel nozzle and installed them.
I turned on the diesel switch. Blower started up and ran for 2 minutes and 50 seconds and shut off. Nothing else. No smoke coming out of the exhaust, just air. I cycled it 4 more times. No change!
:-/ :o
Any ideas anybody???
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Les,
Did you align the ignition electrodes? If they are out of alignment the fuel won't ignite. There should be an alignment fixture screwed to the unit.
Steve
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HOORAY!!!
I just went out to the coach and turned on the Hydro Hot to do some more diagnostic checks on the unit and when I went outside the sound was different. It sounded like the burner had ignited.
Excitedly, I ran around the side of the coach and could smell diesel fumes, I ran like a Jack rabbit into the coach and turned on the hot water......cold.....lukewarm.....hot.....REAL HOT!
I can't tell you how happy it makes me that this has started to work! Saved myself about $700 in diagnostic fees. Cost me about $400 to get working.
I may not be out of the woods yet, need to make sure it runs constantly to have a shower or bath.
Thanks all for your help and hints!
Happy in BC!
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I think a previous poster was spot-on, Les. You just needed to get the fuel up where it belongs, and that took a few cycling and resting efforts.
Glad you are back in business, although you are correct that you need to let it stay on for awhile and cycle a day or two to be sure. If you are going to the Oregon rallies next month, have Orman, John Carillo, or an AquaHot tech check things out just to be sure all is up to snuff, and lessen the liklihood of losing heat some time when you really need it.
Joel
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So today I tried filling the bath tub. I hooked up city water and used only the hot side. It was hot at first but then only warm after running for a bit. The boiler fired up a few times but with only the hot water running, the water in the tub was Luke warm.
Any thoughts?
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Consider the rate of flow at the tap. Although the Hydro Hot is capable of a continuous supply of hot water the rate at which it can heat the incoming water is not infinite. Someone may chime in as to what that rate might be - I did read it somewhere. The temperature of the incoming water is also a factor perhaps.
Just my 2 cents...
Bob
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I guess I'd suspect your mixing valve first, but I'm not familiar with how to adjust it. Others here are. Since you've done recent work regarding the unit, it could be another issue. I'd still like to see you have it checked by a knowledgeable service person.
Joel
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I guess I'd suspect your mixing valve first, but I'm not familiar with how to adjust it. Others here are. Since you've done recent work regarding the unit, it could be another issue. I'd still like to see you have it checked by a knowledgeable service person.
Joel
I'm just about there! (Wits End!) :(
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Les,
If your diesel burner is cycling on a regular basis and the hot water is not adequate, then I would suspect the missing valve/mixing pump. This valve gets sediment in it and will not function property. There is a easy way to fix, but you need to be able to get to the mixing valve.
Karl
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Les
Hopefully you can get at the mixing valve mine is on the back side of the unit. I would mark where it is at and then move it from one stop to the other and set it back at the mark.
Also verify that your stir pump is working. When mine was not working I had exactly the same symptoms that you are experiencing. And the symptoms are the same similar on electric or diesel. Locate the stir pump if your unit has one and verify that the input and output hose is hot.
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Start with the Temperature of the water, 50deg water,you will only have 100 deg .hot water
Another is the flow, 1.5 GPM, NOT pressure
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I'll check these things in the AM.
Thanks all for your continued suggestions.
Signed,
Frustrated
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Start with the Temperature of the water, 50deg water,you will only have 100 deg .hot water
Another is the flow, 1.5 GPM, NOT pressure
Orman, I'll call you in the AM if that's okay. I'll walk you through what I've done so far.
Les
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Bob Jae sent me some info. My unit does not have a stir pump. I'm going to try to test the low temp cutoff switch this AM.
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Les what the low cut off does it shut off the coach heating zones if they are running so that the hot water gets the priority so that you have a hot shower. If the heating pumps are not running it should make no difference.
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I can't get my "large frame" under my coach to get to the back panel. It sits too low where I park it and it's either dig a trench in my driveway, build ramps or take it to my Aqua Hot shop. I'm leaning towards the latter at the moment.
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Les,
I think your HH is located in the same place as mine. I can easily get to mine by airing the bags and opening the LR slide. Then I crawl in behind the propane tank and have plenty of room to unscrew the panel to access the mixing valve.
Karl
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So I mangled to get the back off my Hydro Hot unit and tried to adjust the mixer valve. It wouldn't move and I was scared of breaking it with force. When I look at the numbers on it it shows 1 and 2 on the back face. Should this be set higher to have hot water longer or does this just affect the temperature of the hot water?
I started the diesel burner. When I ran the tub, hot water came at first then the burner cut off and the water gradually got to warm and then cold, then the burner cut in again.
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Les,
That mixing valve just affects the water temperature to the faucets. It is possible that the knob on that unit might lock and have to be pulled upward to release it to turn. Not sure but worth a try. The red direction would be hotter as it points out. The valve may be defective if it cannot/will not move. The version I have is a different brand and a kit can be installed without removing it, not sure on yours. You might call the maker of your Hydro Hot to see what is possible with that mixing valve.
It sounds to me like your unit does not allow the burner to run long enough. There is usually a couple of button thermostat that controls the firing of these units and those may be out of calibration with age. A recording of the temperatures as to what happens boiler temperature wise when the burner goes on and off using an inexpensive IR gun would be a good place to start. Also some mixing valve in and out temperatures as you run water to see if the incoming hot water is hot enough and if the mix is bad or if the water coming in is not hot enough to begin with and mimicking the boiler temperature performance.
I have not owned a Hydro Hot and do not know what their limitations are but there should be some folks that have been there before and can steer you a bit with this. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Les,
Ok, (Orman, please do not read this post) I had the very same problem and this solution is NOT recommended by the Aqua Hot people. Take a rubber hammer and tap the top of the mixing valve. After a few taps, try to turn the knob. If it is still stuck, try again.... It would be best to have the hot water facet running while doing this procedure. Good luck.
I think someone said that you do not have a stir pump. Not sure if that is true, but you should determine if your model does have one and if so, then make sure it is working.
Karl
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Les
You are not likely to be able to turn the mixing valve by hand, I use a pair of pliers to turn by rocking the valve , it will be hard to break free, may have to try Karl's solution
Also,
send me your E Mail
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You mean I have to crawl under that thing again? LOL
I'm still eating gravel from removing the back cover yesterday!
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Les
Post a picture of the front of your H/H, including the lower left
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Hi Orman,
The coach is already at my mechanics getting other work done. Here is a photo I had on file. There is no stir pump on this unit in the lower right. Robert Jae already had me check this and there is only a bolt where the stir pump is on other units. We confirmed on Roger's Aqua Hot site that this unit does not have a stir pump.
I sent you an email Orman.
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Les,
That is very strange that you do not have a stir pump. The function of the stir pump is to circulate the coolant in the tank for even heat around the fresh water coil. This helps reduce the problem you are having with not getting more even hot water flow.
Not sure if this stir pump can be added but maybe it would help. The stir pump does not really help much if the zone heating pumps are working. Therefore,, this stir pump is only necessary when the system is only being used for domestic hot water needs. I think getting the mixing valve to work will also be helpful.
BTW, your unit looks just like mine. However, I have a stir pump...
Good luck,
Karl
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This is off a website. Refers to my HHE-500-4m
Model HHE-x00-04x Webasto 2010 - Uses ethylene glycol coolant
Open zone pumps (no plastic cover)
Engine preheat pump is PLX-CM3-P71
Check valves are outside of the case.
Has large radiator cap. PLX-403-000
Must use plastic float (PLX-01G-ML7) (or float sensor - ELE-200-001-HYD).
NO drain valve
NO stir pump
Uses ‘clip on’ Low Temperature Cutoff Thermostat - ELE-LTC-505
Electric system uses ELX-228-1A1 - Relay, SPST, 12 VDC/30 Amp. Neutral wire is switched through relay and high limit. Upgrade kit available, here: ELE-630-002-HYD
Exhaust pipe connects in different location than models starting with 06x model.
Set fuel pressure on Webasto to 135# instead of the 'standard' 145# (exhaust different)
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Like my slide and leveler issue....Sad to say, I've given up!
As much as I like to try to do things myself and get the satisfaction of doing a repair and learning, It goes in the shop Monday. I'm on holidays as of Friday and I'm out of time and over frustrated.
Ain't nothing a few G's can't do!
I'll let you guys know what it was after I recover from the bill for this as well.
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Update:
Per my previous post from last fall. Got the coach out of the shop. Had hot water but it started to run cold after a bit. Had to turn off the hot water and let the system heat up again.
Fast forward to Now:
Now that its spring, I got underneath the Hydro Hot and pulled the back and managed to get the mixing valve to loosen full motion I turned on the Hydro Hot system and still run out of Hot Water after a short bit.
I need some help diagnosing this as I can't afford another trip to the shop like the last time. My butt is still puckering from the last bill.
As mentioned earlier, mine does not have a stir pump. Could it be the low temperature sensor just ahead of the mixing valve?
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Les take a look at this document http://www.aquahot.com/eSource/ecom/eSource/staticpages/documents/Lack%20of%20Continuous%20Hot%20Water%20Troubleshooting.pdf
See if that helps.
Good luck
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Update:
I got got the mixing valve on the rear of my Hydro Hot unit to move full cycle freely from #I thru #4. As I was reading through an article on troubleshooting Roger Bourke sent me, I read the part about the stir pump. On opening up the front of my unit, as before, I never saw stir pump and assumed my unit didn't come with one.
Having been to a shop that has a certified Aqua Hot technician who diagnosed my unit last year, and supposedly said they got it fixed, however I still never had continuous hot water. Today, I'm thinking someone removed it. I'm surprised the shop I took it to didn't tell me someone removed it and put plugs in and cut the wires. How can I possibly have had continuous hot water ever without a stir pump. Not possible is it?
Roger Bourke tells me that the HHE 500-4M didn't come with the stir pump but decided it needed to be modified.
Bob Jae was kind enough to sell me one off his old unit. Hopefully this will solve my hot water running out issue.
I'll post updates once I get it installed.
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Hi Les,
Do you happen to have a picture of where the stir pump is supposed to be on your aqua hot. Mine looks exactly like yours...I just replaced the electric relay on mine as the original one had burnt wires and burnt up relay.
Mine heats up fine and continues to keep the water hot....knock on wood.......
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Hi LaMonte,
Here is a picture of the Stir pump position on our Hydro Hot system. It's not the exact model, however, this picture shows the position courtesy of Roger Bourkes Aqua Hot site.
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thanks Les, I'll have to check mine out.....not too close though as it seems to be fine at the moment!