BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Gary Wolfer on June 21, 2014, 12:28:03 AM
-
I just changed out the echo charger with a new one cause the old one did not light up and I already had a new one. My question is after charging the drained chassis batteries with the alternator then shutting all power sources down and installing the new echo charger then I plugged the coach into the shore power and the light stayed green for a while then started flashing green is it supposed to do that or did it quit charging. The 4 6v house batteries are setting with no charger hooked up at 6,17v and the two new chassis batteries that i just recharged are setting at 12.63v are the chassis batteries fully charged now and is the echo charger supposed to start flashing green until the chassis batteries are down again? or are the chassis batteries draining and will the echo charger turn solid green again later?
-
Gary,
It's working as designed. The green LED will flash if the house battery voltage is below 13V or above 17V. With a 6.17v reading on one bank of the house batteries, you don't have 13 v available. After a few hours on shore power, teh house batteries should be fully charged >13V. Green light will be on steady and you're good to go.
The other reason the LED may flash green is a difference of >10v between house and chassis batteries, usually caused by bad chassis batteries.
http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Accessories/Auxiliary-Battery-Charger/Echo-charge-OwnerGuide%28445-0204-01-01%29.pdf
Steve
-
Gary, you probably shouldn't use the engine to bring your batteries up. That's a practice that can do in your alternator eventually - a pretty expensive battery charge. The alternator should be only for on the road maintenance of charge and chassis component operation. Always try to use only shore power, a portable 12v charger, or your genset to revitalize low batteries.
Fully charged or "float charged", my batteries usually read 13.8v. Just sitting parked and solar charger on but not inputting, its 13.3v. Sounds like Steve is right and you just need to allow more time while the light flashes green, or something is still drawing current as fast as things are charging. It probably stayed solid green initially while it analyzed the status of things.
Joel
-
The alternator brought up the heart status monitor to 13v while the engine was running but the genset and the shore power only showed 12v on the status monitor thats why I used the engine alternator Joel.
-
Gary,
If the house batteries only show 12 volts when you are plugged into shore power or when the generator is running, either the charge function is not turned on for the inverter or the inverter is malfunctioning.
Gerald
-
Gary,
The Echo Charger is not really a charger per say. It is a switch that connects the two battery banks when the charging voltage on the house batteries is in the proper charging range of not too high and not to low. The blinking means the house bank voltage is too high or low and the coupling function of the Echo Charger is now turned off. Solid green means the proper charging voltage is applied to the house bank by the Charger/Inverter and the coupling is turned on. As long as the coach is plugged in and the charger inverter is working properly that light will always be solid green.
Later Ed
-
I have another problem it is still not charging. I tried to check the isolator today but I am not good with a multimeter and mine is a cheap one with no way to check amps. One time I got a voltage reading from the alternator post to post a and b both with voltage from alternator to a and b but not backwards. That is a good sign but I have to get a better multimeter. It doesn't help that my wife got out of spine surgery day before yesterday and I have to lift the bed for a while while she lays on the couch. I installed new chassis batteries last week and ordered a new echo charger but I found the original echo charger when I got under the bed. I found out it was not working so I put the new one in yesterday. The light stays green when the alternator is charging and the charge rate is higher with the engine running. The genset does not charge more than 12v on the remote. The house batteries are holding a charge but slowly dropping because the chassis batteries are losing their charge. I have a gut feeling the isolator is shot Hopefully not the inverter. I am going to buy a better multimeter tomorrow and study internet files. I am not good with a multimeter but am going to teach myself. The local rv tech passed away a month ago of cancer. I have to learn to do it myself. Something is draining the chassis batteries I think.
-
Gerald the house batteries are 4 6v batteries and each are running about 6.15 v each. The chassis batteries are new and streadily running down
-
Gary,
At 6.15 volts each on your house batteries, that is 12.3 volts for your house battery bank. That means that your inverter is not charging your house batteries, and therefore there is no way for the Echo Charger to charge your chassis batteries. There is a normal discharge from the chassis batteries of about 2 amps to power the keep-alive memory in the ECM (engine control module). This discharge will completely discharge your chassis batteries in less than a week if they are not recharged from a source. So you will need a battery charging source, and that needs to be from the inverter or solar panels.
The battery isolator is not involved in the charging circuit from the inverter. The charging current form the engine alternator alone goes through the battery isolator. So if your engine alternator will recharge your batteries when the engine is running, your battery isolator is probably OK. From your description above, it sounds like you have an inverter problem.
Gerald
-
Gary,
With the echo charger flashing green, there is no connection from the chassis batteries to the house batteries so bad chassis batteries aren't affecting you house units.
Since you need 13V from the house battery bank to get the echo charger working, check the voltage across the complete house battery bank, not across a single battery. Place 1 probe on a house battery post on the inner-most batteries (posts closest the center of the coach. This will probably be a negative (-) post. Place the other probe on a post closest to you and the outside of the coach. This will normally be a positive (+) post. With the meter set to DC volts and a range of 20V or greater, you should be reading approximately 12 to 12.5V based on yuo 6.1v measurement mentioned earlier.
With the inverter charger on and the coach plugged in to shore power or teh generator running, this voltage should go to 13-14 volts, as Gerald noted earlier.
Steve
-
Gerald Thanks I did check out the isolator and indeed it is working like it is supposed to. I Believe you must be right. I think I have found an auto electric company about 20 miles away but being sunday I cannot get ahold of them til tomorrow. I will ask them if they can test the inverter if so I will take it out and let them bench test it if they can.
-
Gary,
The inverter charger may be best tested in the coach because it is already set up in an environment to operate. For the charger function, you need a good house battery bank and AC power to the coach. If it is working properly the house battery bank will have 13.2V to 14.4V across the bank from ground side to the output side of the bank which is nominally 12.6V when charged. That is measured from the main ground of the 6V battery bank that goes to the chassis, to the main 12v lead that goes to the coach house wiring. These wiring connections are across pairs of 6v batteries wired in series in order to make 12V nominally.
From what you have been measuring/seeing with your Echo Charger it appears that the main charger/inverter is not supplying the voltage it should be for whatever reason. That is why the Echo Charger light is blinking. The auto electric company should be able to help but may want to have you bring the coach in for trouble shooting. It may be that AC 120v is not being supplied to the inverter charger and they would not know that if it is taken out of the coach as an example.
Later Ed
-
This Issue brings up a thought on the Echo charger logic process. IMHO it appears that the Echo charger must see a external charge cycle (over 13.5) then and only then will the Echo charger transfer amperage to the chassis bank of batteries. Perhaps I am wrong on this but just having ~ 13.5volts to the coach batteries does not necessary insure that the Echo charge will charge the chassis batteries.
-
I really appreciate your help guys I am in quite a pickle. since I came back from Quartzsite in February I have had two tarps on top because of leaks. My DW just got out of lower spine surgery last Thursday and I am her caregiver. I moved her to the couch during the day so I could get under the bed. I have alot of stuff to move to get ready to move the coach if necessary I can take my wife to my son's coach who is just across the park. I was just trying to bypass that problem. Possibly I could get someone out here I am 20 miles away from their shop. I found out about them yesterday(sunday)
I know you guys are right I have been trying to keep the batteries charged up so the refer does not quit. I do have 30 amp service here however I charge 13,5 rate on the remote inverter module only from the alternator. Yesterday I did get 13.5 v charge from both shorepower and genset power for a brief time then they both dropped to 12v. Right after I charge the batteries with the alternator the echo charger light stays on green til the batteries start dropping then it starts blinking. I am confused why the genset and shore power both charged at a high rate for a few minutes yesterday but it was when the batteries were way down and my refer had stopped working. Fortunately I got the batteries back up and the refer has been fine since and never lost any food.
Yesterday I went to walmart (20 miles away) to buy a big charger. I bought what I thought would work because they did not have a big one and found out after getting home it was just a start booster and had to be charged by power for 36 hours so today I have to take it back and find a big charger with wheels I guess.
-
Gary,
As others have said, your charger/inverter does not appear to be working properly. It would not be good to use your alternator to charge your batteries if they are significantly low. The 30 amp shore power should be plenty to supply the charger/inverter. Using a external charger is a good idea, but a 20-40 amp one will be plenty to keep your batteries charged, just be sure it has "smart" stage capabilities.
-
Gary,
What you need for a temporary charger is a good 20 to 30 amp charger that will do some continuous duty charging and if possible will taper the charge (smart charger) but that may not be that important. This charger would go on the house 6V bank where you see 12V from ground to the main lead going to the coach. The Echo Charger will take care of the chassis batteries from the house bank. The hard part is getting a quality continuous duty charger today. You do not need a large charger on wheels just one that will do a 20 amp continuous job.
Later Ed
-
I just googled how to test a freedom 2oD and found a post from last month here by Mathew Harger It would be nice if he would chime in and let me know what he ended up doing. I know the remote on the freedom inverters use a telephone flat cable from the inverter to the remote as I had to rerun a shorted phone cable in my old Safari. It was a real pain. I have had no real problem with either this coach or my safari with the modified sine wave as far as not satisfying some appliances. I also had the overload come one the first time I reset the remote and it went away but that is probably when the inverter went bad. I replaced the chassis batteries and an echo charger since that happened. I had the freedom 2,000 in my old Safari bench tested in Colorado Springs when I had problems a few years ago and was told it had a larger heavier magnet than the new inverters and we ran it up to 3,000 watts on the bench.
If I have to change and get a new magnum will it work upside down? My inverter is in a lousy place in a bin hanging from the ceiling in the back and the transfer switch is on the side wall of the same bin. The toilet and holding tanks are between that bin and the battery compartment.
I vaguely remember pulling out the inverter in my safari there was a hot and ground cable and I think I had to take a plate off the front and the wires from the transfer switch were wire nutted inside there ( am I right?)
-
Gary,
You might want to check your house batteries. IMHO the symptoms you are describing could be cause by a bad battery.
Steve
-
Steve when I charged my batteries yesterday with the alternator and took a reading with the multimeter the voltage across the 6v battery bank was less thank 13v like 12.75 and the reading across the two chassis 12v batteries was 14v That was right after I shut the engine down and went out to the battery box and checked. Would you suspect a dead cell in a 6v battery could do that? Or just wouldn't take a full charge ? The house batteries are dated 2012 I just replaced the chassis batteries.
-
Gary,
12.75V sounds pretty normal with the alternator shut down depending on where the batteries were charge wise when you started out. If they needed some charge then the battery voltage would be down in this range and if they were already fully charged then the voltage would be more like the 13.8 to 14V range like the chassis batteries were.
With the engine and alternator running if the house bank has 13.5 to 14.4V on them then most likely the battery bank is O.K. from a bad cell point of view. A shorted cell pulls a lot of current, tends to boil out, and it will be hard for the alternator to overcome that load and hold the voltage at normal charging levels.
The Magnum chargers can be mounted in any plane including upside down. There is a set of connections for the AC input and output that uses a Romex type two screw clamp. The transfer relay may be an interior installable option so you would need to discuss that with your dealer if you go this way. The 12V lugs are stand off type so that the battery cabling can approach from a variety of angles. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
-
ED when I had my Safari I had the freedom 2000 bench tested and it was ok then we put it back in and added 4 new 12v AGM Deca Batteries. We also installed a 300 Amp Fuse and fuse holder between the house batteries and the inverter positive lead. I stopped that night and plugged into a 50 amp shore power and the overload light went off. I reset it and went on the next day and when I stopped My house batteries were dead. I had to order a new fuse because it blew. (There was never a large fuse in the Safari between batteries and inverter before I bought it. The 4 house battery positive and negative leads were both connected to the end batteries. The tech that put in the fuse and the new agm batteries said they were originally wired wrong and hooked one positive battery to the en closest to the engine and the negative at the other end of the group so that all 4 batteries were charging at the same time. before the first two were being charged then when they had a full charge the other two started. What I am wondering is This coach I see at least 3 fused cables. I am wondering if one of the fuses is blown. I am not sure why I see 3 but there are two under the bed (like the ones you linked for me) and one more in the bin where the inverter and transfer switch are located. It appears I can take out the inverter hot wire at the fuse right there inside the bin at the fuse. I called the service tech twice today and they never called me back. I am desperate and do not want to keep charging with the alternator if I ordered a new inverter if it would be a unbolt and rebolt switch I understand the remote cables are phone cables and interchangable so I would have to have a new remote if I went to the magnum ms 2812. (would it be Plug and Play)
-
Gary,
I feel for the predicament you are in and wish there was a way to get you some help. I would hate for you to order an expensive inverter if the one you have is working O.K. and it is just a fuse or something else that can be fixed easily. If the current charger inverter is bad then the Magnum 2812 is an excellent choice for a replacement. There are no major wiring changes given the AC wiring you have now to the current inverter charger is what you would use for the Magnum. Also the DC wiring, just two large cables from the house bank are all that is needed. The temperature sensor is a different one and that would have to be run to the house battery bank. The existing phone cable I think would work for the new readout control panel. All in all not too much effort is needed to change this out. This is plug in play in a sense, but there are set up menus to go through and I am not sure about the transfer switch, seems that is some kind of internal plug in module that is an option on this charger. Maybe a Magnum owner can chime in on that subject.
It looks like you are on the Oregon Coast from your posting. Where exactly? Maybe there is another Beaver owner out that way that could help you trouble shoot this. Richard Tracy had a mobile service guy come to his RV in Newport and he trouble shot his leveling pump that had a bad solenoid. He seemed to be pretty happy with this person and maybe could pass along the name if you are near the Newport area. I called him to try and get the name but he was not answering at the moment so I left a message. I think some help is in order if we can stir some up...
Later Ed
-
I am in waldport just 20 miles south of Newport. I called an auto electric company this morning and they said when the service guy came in they would have him call me. I had to call back an hour later and they said he was next door working on a project and they would have him call back. He never did so I guess he did not need the work. There was a road service guy here locally but he passed away of cancer not long ago. I think I will go to the fire department and ask them who does their work as they use inverters in fire trucks and ambulances. I think many rv techs do not have the knowledge needed to do complex wiring maybe I am wrong. I will find a charger tomorrow to get me by until I find out.
-
I know it is a little ways from you, but when I bought my Beaver last year from Guaranty in Junction City Oregon, they replaced the inverter and all of the batteries. Unfortunately they did not replace the alternator and it went out a month later but they did pay for the alternator and the mobile mechanic that came to fix it. They seem to have some very sharp techs working there.
-
Chuck you are right Guaranty was where I bought my first Diesel pusher(Safari Sahara) Safari's and country coaches and Many high end coaches were built there thru the 90's before the economy turned around and they all went broke. Guaranty was one of the largest sales outfits in the country. My problem is my wife had Back Surgery last week and would not be able to travel right now. If I cannot find someone to do the work I may have to try to do it myself. I need someone to come out here if I can. If not my son lives in my old Safari here in the park and she might have to stay there for a couple days. Worst case senario.
-
Just replaced the xantrex with a Magnum MS-2812. The cable for the xantrex will work for the Magnum but you will have to rewire the plug on one end. For some reason they switched the wires around in the Magnum plugs. Its the same way on the cable going to the remote.
My xantrex also had built in genstart circuits in it and the Magnum needs external modules for the genstart and the battery monitor along with the different temp sensor and remote.
I have a separate transfer switch in my coach but there is some references in the xantrex paperwork to a transfer switch internal to the xantrex, so you may have that.
My inverter was fried by a mis-wired 30 amp connection yes I now have a TRC hardwired 50 amp surge guard in my coach. The inverter section worked fine but it would not charge the batteris or pass 115 into the coach. It had me fooled for a little while because most of the elec. outlets worked and as soon as I replaced the transfer switch the A/Cs worked.
Hope this helps.
Jerry
-
Gary,
Richard Tracy called me back tonight and is going to look up the name and contact info for the mobile RV tech that he had work on his rig in Newport. I'll give the guy a call and see how familiar he is with these systems and if he passes muster I will send his info along to you. I think your thought about the local fire department and who they have for electrical system service is a great idea....locals usually have a pretty good handle on who has a good reputation and knowledge.
So I think this is where you might want to go regarding the tech conversation...
1. I want to verify that the house and chassis batteries are wired correctly and that the voltages look appropriate when not charging.
2. I want to verify that the three main fuses have continuity and identify what each is for.
3. I want to test the charger inverter output in charge mode is at the proper voltage level at the charger and also at the house battery bank.
4. I want to make sure if all of the above is correct that the inverter function is also working.
5. If the house battery bank is being charged properly then I want to verify that the Echo Charger is charging the chassis battery bank properly.
Gary, if you go in to discuss what you want done to sort out your electrical charging/battery system problem, this list includes the logical steps that need to be understood. Obviously one or more of these will likely be a problem and once that is known you can go from there with the tech or on your own to get what is needed to fix this problem. Seems this is the best we can do to try and help from here.
Later Ed
-
Gary,
Have them test your batteries too.
Steve
-
I Went to the auto electric shop today and they finally made an appointment with me for tomorrow. They will be checking the 12v system from shore power post to fuses. I also purchased a good charger that is automatic 6 and 12 and wet cell to agm with a 2 amp 12 amp and 30 amp with a 80 amp starting feature. I am charging the house bank and hopefully when It gets to 13.5 it will charge the chassis batteries as well. If not I will charge the chassis batteries one more time with the alternator so the tech has good battery power when he gets here in the morning. I will post the findings tomorrow. Thanks for all your help. I may need more help if I have to get an inverter.
-
Gary,
Glad you found some one to lend a hand. I had not heard from Richard today so I could not come up with a name on my end. Glad you found a decent portable charger and can get the banks charged. Keep us posted.
Later Ed
-
Ed I have been charging the house batteries for about 4 hours at 30 amps and they just read about 12.90 from 11.5 this morning. The green light on the echo charger is solid green at this time so the chassis batteries are charging they are about the same as the house batteries at 12.75. I have been charging with the remote switch turned off as well as the inverter switch. It is plugged into 30 amp shore power though even though it is not charging from there. Each 6v battery is about 6.32v at this time they were about 5.6 this morning.. At least they will not be dead when he comes out tomorrow morning.
-
Gary,
Looks like they are coming up as they should from a discharged state, see what the voltage is in the morning. We will hope for 13.8V or so. Seems like you will be in a pretty good position with the portable charger to be able to take your time with this. Morning voltages will hopefully confirm that.
Later Ed
-
Gary,
As a possible back up.....Richard wrote in the night that the name of the individual is Lee Braithwait but he could not find a number. He goes between Newport in the summer and AZ in the winter. He thought that the office at Pacific Shores Resort in Newport (541-265-3750) which opens at around noon - 1PM would have some info given that he works on a lot of RVs there over the summer.
Later Ed
-
Thanks Ed still waiting the tech should be here soon.
-
6v batteries fully charged should read 12.4-12.6volts i believe atleast my Trojan T-105's will
im having trouble charging my batteries also only way i can get mine to charge up is with 2 battery chargers one hooked up to chassis and one hooked up to house. i am plugged into 50amp service but its charge is soo slow the parastatic draw over comes it.
-
William,
A fully charged 6 volt battery will read in the 6.3 to 6.4 range after setting for an hour or so after being removed from a charger. However, the 6 volt batteries used in our coaches are wired in a series of 2 batteries to deliver 12.7 volts when charged.
If you are having low battery voltage issues when plugged into 50 amp shore power, you need to have you inverter serviced or replaced.
Gerald
-
Gerald you were the first to tell me I needed to reset mine or replace it. Today I had Allstart Auto Electric out of Newport Or come here. They do not usually do service calls but did me a favor. After testing circuits the only thing he could find without schematics for the dc system was the inverter was getting both ac and dc current on the input but would not charge nothing on the output side inside the panel at the bottom of the inverter. So I am looking for an inverter now I have decided since it would most likely cost near as much to repair or replace the old one with the same unit I will purchase a magnum 2812. I looked at the link left in this thread and if they still have one I will buy it however I emailed them yesterday and they do not have a remote unit so I will have to search for one elsewhere. I plan to install my own as I have been with a tech before when we took one out and put it back in in my Safari. There are only 6 connections for the inverter there are two cables one positive and one negative to the batteries. There is a connection point inside the bin near the inverter. Then there are three ac connections on the bottom one for ac in and two ac out. They are Wire Nutted inside the front panel and clearly marked. Then the communication cable for the remote. It is a 6 wire cable and the freedom used only 4 of the 6. I understand the magnum is wired a little different and there may be two different remotes. I need to find one that is the same size as the one for the freedom if possible, I do not really want to adapt in the compartment up front next to the fresh and black gray water remote. If some one could chime in about wiring diagram for the remote that would help and possibly a model number for the remote that would fit in my existing hole. I have a small charger to keep my batteries up while I am waiting to get the new inverter. Any suggestions and help appreciated.
-
Gary,
I just installed a Magnum MS2012 (not sure you really need the MS2812) and the ARC-50 remote. My previous '97 Monterey had the Freedom inverter/charger and the panel was very large compared to the Magnum. The schematics for this remote is available on-line from Magnum. I think the Magnum remote is about 3.5"x5". My old remote (Xantrex) was also slightly larger than the new one, so I took a black piece of Plexiglas and mounted it over the old opening. Then cut the hole for the new Magnum remote panel. Looks very profession and no one could tell it had been replaced with a different control panel.
You should only need the one remote unless you are going to add something. The other issue is the battery temp sensor wire will have to be run to the inverter/charger unit. The old wire will not work. My old remote telephone type cable did work for my remote, some folks with that style cable end up replacing that with the twisted pair cable that comes with the new inverter/charger.
Hope this helps and good luck.
-
Gary, I have this remote and it was a drop in replacement for the Xantrex Freedom 480. Hope his helps. Yow can also call magnum and they will tell you what replaces what...very good folks.
http://magnumenergy.com/me-arc50-remote/
Dick
-
I called around and searched the internet today Tactical supply had the best buy on the inverter but did not have the remote. I started shopping. I called a couple solar outfits and I called Magnum about the remote I think the 3 1/2" top to bottom was right but it is 5 7/8" across My remote panel is same width but 4" top to bottom so I may have to do the plastic underneath too. I am not sure about the battery temperature sensor I will need help with that. The factory said the remote is a ME-RC50. After all the calling I called Guaranty RV in Junction City They had the remote in stock but wanted 2200 for the inverter but I told them I could buy one for just over 1500 and the parts man got ahold of the parts manager and he called me back told me he knew I could buy it cheaper on Amazon or somewhere but shot me a price of 1950.00 and another 215.00 for the remote and the remote was in stock and the inverter would be there tomorrow. So No freight I can be there in about an hour and a half. I will be able to install it sooner. I am concerned about the temp sensor though. May need help with that.
-
for anyone else lookign this is where i plan to orer from: http://www.imarineusa.com/magnumenergyms28122800watt12v100atruesinewaveinvertercharger-1-2.aspx
-
The ME-ARC50 is the advanced model of the ME-RC50 for just a few dollars more.
Do not worry about running the battery temp sensor wire. You just need to fish a stiff wire inside the chassis rail up to the basement to the area that you plan to mount the inverter/charger. Carefully tape the phone plug to the end of the fish wire and pull it through the foam insulation that seals the basement from the outside.
If you have a sensor now and it uses a telephone style wire, you can also cut the end and put a connector back on that end, then using a phone wire union connect to the new sensor wire and reconnect to the new inverter/charger. This can be a little tricky, because you have to get the wires in the proper order in the connector.
-
Gary,
This is a day late but Richard did pass along Lee Braithwait's phone number (208-880-0634) from a friend at Pacific Shores. If you find you need a hand for the install he may be more available and most likely knowledgeable given it seems he has been doing RV work for awhile.
Sounds like you are getting there. Here is the link to the MS 2812 Manual. A couple of things, the DC current is not protected in the Magnum charger and they call for a 400amp fuse and 4GA cable. That 400 amp fuse is a max size and as long as your current DC fuse is less then that value you should be fine given it was sized to the wire, the coach demand, and the current inverter size. The existing small AC breaker box in the bay should be 30 amps or less and that is compatible with the MS2812 for AC protection at the output. The main AC breaker panel should have a 30amp AC breaker for the 120V AC feed to the inverter and that is fine also. The temperature sense sensor at the battery is not critical and the unit will run fine without it. It adjusts the absorb and float voltages a little if the battery gets too warm and that will not happen on the coast of Oregon. It is a good idea but can be installed a bit later if you need to get back online with a charger sooner. Be sure all the DC and AC wires are disconnected from voltage sources during the install. Don't assume that if you have a battery switch that it disconnects the inverter. You may want to remove the battery cable, or DC fuse if need be. Hope this helps.
http://www.magnumenergy.com/Literature/Manuals/Inverters/64-0007%20Rev%20D%20(MS%20Series)_Web.pdf
Later Ed
-
IThanks ED
I will be making my trip to the valley this morning to pick up the inverter and a merc50 remote. My batteries are holding full charge because of the charger I bought day before yesterday. I left it on 2A trickle charge while I am gone. I had a good talk with the tech when he was here. He cannot do the install because he does not have an electrician license for AC. He told me just to disconnect all the ground cables to the batteries and make sure the shore power is disconnected. My only concern now is if it is possible to have residual current in the old inverter when I disconnect the wires. From what I see on the install I will only have to deal with positive and negative cables to the house batteries. I will install later an additional 300 amp fuse in the battery cabinet between the positive house battery and the existing cable. I cannot see the existing fuse but the tech told me it has to be there because I still have AC and DC inside the coach. Then there is one AC input set of wires and two output wires to move to the other unit that are wire nutted behind the acess panel at the bottom of the freedom charger and of course ground the new inverter to a ground lug. I am sure there is a ground already in the bin for the old one then the temp sensor and I intend to use the phone wire to the old remote. Not sure if it is a 6 or 4 wire as I have not had it out yet but the instruction manual should get me there. I think I may have to trim the hole for the remote . I do not see any circuit breakers on the magnum like I had on the freedom but will know more when I get the inverter this afternoon. Thanks to all for the help. I will take some photos and try to document some of the work during the change.
-
The instructions in the manual are pretty good. I used the phone cable from the old xantrex when I installed the 2812 battery temp sensor and remote. You just have to remember to change the wiring of the plug on one end. The magnum wiring diagram is in there and for some unknown reason they reversed the wires from one end of the cable to the other. I had the same issue with the remote being slightly smaller from top to bottom. I bought a new piece of Luan (I think thats what it's called) to cut down to size to fit. then I will experiment to get the color right. Anyway good luck.
Jerry
-
for those that have the advanced magnum remote is there any benefit to it?
-
Gary,
I have been away all day painting the kitchen in my brothers home. Big painful job between the ceiling and walls, lots of cracks to repair. Glad that we are getting near the end, today is day 4 of 5...
As far as residual current in the unit, none of any consequences will be there as long as the AC breaker feed from your main panel is off, the coach is disconnected from the pedestal, and all of the batteries from the house bank are disconnected. I would disconnect both the main house bank plus lead and the main ground from the house bank and at least the ground from the chassis bank just to be sure before you start to disconnect the old inverter and install the new. Once you are sure with your meter that no AC or DC is being fed to the inverter I would then label each wire with tape and a sharpie as to what its function is before I disconnect anything. It is best to look at the labeling on the new Magnum and label each wire to match where it will go on the Magnum before you disconnect anything on the old inverter. Once you are sure all wires are labeled for the new inverter and you have verified no voltage is present then you can start to uninstall the old unit. It is also good to take photos of the old install with the wire labels so you can go back to them if there is a question. I am a bit cautious here but it is an expensive unit and you need to be sure that all the wiring is correct before you power it up. I would recommend that the house battery bank be connected first on start up before applying AC unless the Magnum manual tells you otherwise. Chargers like to have a battery load in place before the AC is applied. Take your time and call Magnum if you have any questions. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
-
for those that have the advanced magnum remote is there any benefit to it?
As I understand it, the ARC gives you the ability to monitor battery State of Charge (SOC) as a percentage rather than just full or charging etc... It also tells you how much battery you have left while using the inverter for power, I'm still trying to learn all that it does so I can decide whether to get it or not. I have the RC now that I bought thinking I was getting the ARC, still not sure how that happened. good luck.
Jerry
-
I am reading the book tonight and am a little unsure on wiring the AC connections. On the old Freedom 20D There is a panel on the bottom across the front that is marked AC Input another AC output1 and another AC output 2. to me this means this unit has one input and two outputs. According to the 2812 manual the only model that has this configuration is the 2012 on page 27. What am I missing? The output is supposed to be like the dual pole 30A right? I am a little confused. Seems like it should be the first one Single in and single out on page 24 with 120v and 30 amp do I just wire nut the AC2 wires and not use them?
-
Gary,
I believe that Beaver used an external grey AC box with 3-4 breakers in it on ceiling of the bay. It should have a 10guage wire feed, probably Romex going into it. If your current coach has such a breaker box that is the distribution box for a single output feed of AC out of the inverter to the coach. So you would not have anything to add or change.
Although the old freedom 20 had an AC one and AC2 option it may not have been used. If your coach has no AC breaker box in the bay area and you have a Freedom 20 now with two AC output wires then you would have to add a small AC breaker box with a 30amp main breaker and two breaker protected circuits (15 amp if 14 gauge wire or 20amp if 12 gauge wire) and then provide a single 10 gauge Romex feed from that box to the MS2812 .
When you say dual pole 30Amp right? .....The output of the MS2812 is a single 120V in our case 30 Amp circuit. That will consist of a black hot wire, a white neutral wire, and a ground wire and a single breaker with a single handle. Dual pole usually referring to a 220V breaker with two handles tied together I believe. All of this wiring will be single pole 120V.
Later Ed
-
Ed,
I do not think that the 98 Patriot used the separate breaker box in the basement for inverter output like your Marquis has. I would just use a small external breaker box with two breakers, 15 or 20 amp depending on wire gauge, and tie his leg 1 to one breaker and leg 2 to the other one. Then run a short 10 gauge wire from the inverter output to the breaker box. I do not think that a 30 amp master breaker is necessary in the small added box because the inverter input in already controller by a 30 amp breaker.
Gerald
-
Thanks both of you for your input I am not an electrician but think I have an understanding now. I do not have the separate breaker box as of this time so I will have to purchase one then I will need to take the wires from the 30 amp imput side of the freedom to the Magnum and wire one imput hot one imput neutral and tie that ground with an outgoing ground to the ground lug inside the magnum terminal block. Then take a short length of #10 romex from the terminal block AC Hot Out and AC neutral out tp the external breaker box with a 30 amp breaker and two 20 or 15 amp breakers then attach the output one and output two romex wires to each of those breakers. Here is a photo of the diagram I am now looking at in the manual. (breaker size depends on the wire size from the breaker panel in the bedroom to the freedom inverter as it is now right?)
-
Gerald and Gary,
As far as the 30 amp main breaker in the output side of the additional box that has been the wiring technique used by Beaver when the Charger Inverter does not have internal protection. I'm not sure exactly if this is dictated by code. I believe the primary reason is that the inverter generates AC in invert mode and you could overload the inverter beyond capability using the sum of multiple circuits. So thirty amps for a main and then most likely two 20 amp branches. It is also a chance to add a circuit in the bay with an extra breaker if you would like.
Later Ed
-
I've been following this with interest, as a learning experience I guess, and I note the similarity to our configuration: 50 amp Main with the last breaker in that panel being 30 amp feeding the inverter. As Gerald mentions, that should preclude the need for another 30 amp breaker, and yet our non-Main box fed by the inverter does have a 30 amp breaker first in line labeled 30 amp main. I assume the one in the 50amp Main box protects the inverter, and the one in the second box protects everything else downstream of the inverter even though each circuit thereafter has its own breaker.
Also, I don't know if Gary's coach has GFCI outlets or not, but if not would he not benefit from using 2 breakers with GFCI built in in his 30 amp box ?
Joel
-
I went to Newport this afternoon to find a breaker box. The only one I could find was larger than what I wanted measuring 11 1/2 x 13" but it holds the 30 amp and two 20 amp and has 4 more empty spaces so I could add some plugs to the basement or do what I wish and Maybe Joel I would even add GFCI's at the first outlet of each run if I did any more. However I am not very high on them as I had one melt and catch on fire instead of kick. I will mount it on the back wall next to the inverter. The old inverter sits on a shelf I am concerned with the exhaust vent in the back of the Magnum as it is longer than the old Freedom I will have to set it out further from the wall for ventilation. The shelf is plenty strong to let it hang over the front. I was sick about the adding of an additional box at first but after looking at the diagram it will be simple even for me. I ordered a 400A fuse and holder by Magnum to go in the positive line between the house battery bank and the inverter. Should have ordered a spare fuse but the unit was over 80 bucks as it was. I got about 80 in the breaker panel, breakers and 6' of 10-2 romex. I have added photos of my breaker box and breakers below.
-
Ed Buker will be the first to tell you that there are bad GFCI's and there are good ones. He can tell you which one is quality-built and pretty reliable.
What I was referring to is your getting breakers for your inverter panel that already have GFCI components in them, so you don't need GFCI outlets, and when one trips (GFCI component, not the circuit breaker itself necessarily) it's easy to know where to go to reset that circuit. On my posted photo the GFCI breakers reveal via the yellow reset tab visible on them. They are Square D brand. http://www.lowes.com/pd_71829-296-QO120GFICP_0__
Joel
-
Joel I am learning as well. So what you are saying is I can purchase breakers that fit into the panel I am installing that have a built in GFCI in the breakers themselves? so I would not have to install GFCI's downline. Great idea You know the only thing I really hate about this Patriot is the placement of the inverter and the transfer switch being buried in the back of the largest Bin I have in the basement area I get tired of having to move stuff just to get to them. My 94 Safari had a dedicated box straight across the coach from the battery compartment that housed the inverter two GFCI Plugs one for each line and the transfer switch. It was less than arms length deep. Probably the reason My inverter went out is when I am parked in the campground I run a 1500 watt infrared heater and when I would forget to turn it off in the morning and my DW turned on her electric Tea Pot it would pop the breaker on the front of the inverter. The older I get the more often it happens.
-
Joel,
I think you missed the point of my last post..... The main AC panel in the coach does have a 30 amp breaker that feeds the inverter/charger while you are using shore power, so if the output side of the inverter charger sees a load in excess of 30 amps the inverter/charger is protected because it is passing AC current through the coaches main AC panel as Gerald reasoned out.
The second scenario is that you are off shore power and are now in invert mode. The main panel AC breaker is no longer involved and offers no protection, there is no AC passing through that panel. The coach AC wise is now running off the small breaker box in the bay (our location). So the AC overload protection now must come from the downstream box on the output side of the inverter. Assume you have three 20 amp individual breakers on the output side of the inverter (could be more) with no main breaker. You could now pull 60 amps out of the inverter which has no internal protection and that would send your brand new unit to inverter heaven. You protect the inverter by using a 30 amp main breaker configuration on the output side and then the three 20 amp breakers protect each circuit leg wiring from overload. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
-
Gary,
From your photo I saw the 30 amp breaker that you bought and I know that is not the right one. That is a dual pole 220V breaker. You need a single pole 120V 30 amp breaker. That breaker is where the black wire from the inverter 10 gauge Romex would screw into that feeds the box hot buss. You would not use the large lug on the box that is above the breakers unless it is a ground lug. I cannot tell from your photo what it does but by its location I think it is on the hot buss.
I think the box is OK but I was expecting to see a buss bar for the neutral line (white wire) and a buss for the ground (bare wire). Wire the neutral wires to the buss and the grounds to the box is what I would want to do. I am not sure if the grounds and the neutral can be tied together in a motorhome configuration unless the main coach AC box has bonded the ground and neutrals together. That should be checked if you are going to use the single buss for both grounds and neutrals.
Gary I am concerned that you are trying to do all this on your own and I think because of the breaker you bought you are not really sure of how this all works. This is really your decision but only so much help can come through the forum. You may want to consider getting the help of an electrician or someone who has done a lot of wiring and understands all of this. Hope this doesn't upset you, I am just trying to help.
Later Ed
-
Gary,
The ME series charger has a relay within it that bonds the neutral to ground and there should only be one bonding point in the RV at any one time.
http://www.aeesolar.com/how-stationary-and-mobile-inverter-systems-differ
What that means is that the neutral wires (white) in your new box would go to the buss and that buss should be kept isolated from ground which will be tied to the metal box. The ground wires, if there are no additional screw buss for ground connections will be together with wire nuts with an extra bare wire brought out of the wire nut and tied to the metal box. The 20 amp 120V breakers will be wired with the black branch circuit wires from the old inverter output.
So what is different about this box is that the inverter 120V out black wire will go to what is normally an output feed from a 30 amp single pole 120V breaker that we use as an AC input feed to the main breaker buss in this box. Hope this helps.
later Ed
-
Yes, I may have missed the inverter-only AC side of the reasoning behind the 30 amp lead breaker in the second box, Ed. I was coming off Gerald's idea that no such animal would be needed, and probably didn't word my concept exactly right. Such a second 30 amp breaker protects the inverter against multiple circuits overtaxing it all at once when its inverting.
I also agree that Gary should be careful here, given the options available for breakers, and thanks for noticing that he'd already obtained a 240v one to put in a 120v application; as Gary's own inverter installation diagram shows, that is to be a single pole 120v main breaker. Ditto for my suggestion regarding GFCI breakers, as the link I supplied to Lowe's was only meant as an example. Further perusal of that site will reveal multiple possibilities at many price points. Gary needs to be sure of getting the appropriate devices, whether using built-in GFCI breakers or the less expensive regular ones backed up with downstream GFCI outlets.
My other concern is that both circuits fed by the inverter have 20 amp capable wiring and not 15 amp somewhere. Perhaps I missed something in a prior post where he alluded to their wire size, he has matched them accordingly, and all is well in that dept.
I for one would feel most comfortable at the very least paying for an onsite consult with a licensed electrician familiar with RV applications, Gary. It might expedite getting your Mrs. back home again to her nice (and safe) Beaver coach.
Joel
-
Gary,
Joel brought up a good point regarding your 20 amp breakers. If you can read the wire gauge labeled on the two Romex feeds to your current Inverter that should help. If it is 12/2 then use a 20 amp breaker, if you see 14/2 then use a 15 amp breaker. While this is not an exact method to select a breaker size, you know for sure that if a 14/2 gauge wire is involved that a 15 amp breaker should be used.
Later Ed
-
I will have to wait til Monday to get the right 30A Breaker. I am not schooled on Electrical systems. I have read the manual over and over and I am confident I can wire it but Did not realize I had the wrong breaker. I guess I was more worried about finding a breaker box that would work and do not know the difference between breakers. Thanks to you guys I can finish the job. I have to I cannot unfortunately afford to hire an electrician and I will get it done. I thought it would be easier because of the others here that have done it Just goes to show you Beaver made changes even in the middle of a year model. Had I realized my coach was wired different than Others it may have affected my choice on inverters but I wanted one that was not outdated. I am somewhat familiar with the Freedom inverters as I had a 94 Safari and had mine in and out a couple times. I have replaced the Transfer switch as well. What threw me off was the Magnum was oneAC in and one AC out and my Freedom was one AC in and two AC out. The only wiring diagram in the Magnum book wired like my freedom was for a model 2012. I will make sure I have the right components and wired properly before I test it. Thanks for your input Joel.
-
Gary,
If you are so inclined, while you are at your supplier on Monday ask if he has an 8 circuit 4 space breaker box. The 8 circuit is possible with half width breaker but the standard size breakers would be best here. Outside rated boxes are a bit better, the bay area can get damp, and it may have the ground buss but inside rated will work fine also. They are a very common box size and they should have it in stock. This is an example of one that is 10 inches by 7 inches. What you will have will work but it is bigger and probably cost more money then a smaller box would.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_31378-76863-TL412R1_0__?productId=1082923&Ntt=4+space+8+circuit+breaker+box&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3D4%2Bspace%2B8%2Bcircuit%2Bbreaker%2Bbox&facetInfo=
Do not be concerned if the main buss that the breakers plug into is split and there are two main lug feeds like the single lug at the top of the buss in your photo. You can run a jumper between the two lugs, for our purposes a 10 gauge wire will be fine. That will enable power for all breaker positions providing 120V.
Later Ed
-
Here are some photos of my sub panel box without the breakers. I will add a ground buss to the box before wiring. (ED I will take the box with me and see if they have anything similar to what you showed. Unfortunately there is no home depot or lowe's here but we have a Platt's Electric wholesale supply. )
-
Gary,
The box you have now appears to be expandable by the look of the cover and that is why it is larger. It is a 4 position up to 8 circuit box as configured now. It is up to you if you want to seek something smaller or if you are happy. This box has a split main buss so it could be wired for 240V but for our use you would run a jumper wire between those two main lugs on the center buss structure to provide 120V on both halves of the buss. At least a 10 gauge wire or larger.
Just read your private message, we should probably keep this info on the forum thread for others. You can and need to keep your current transfer switch, the one in the Magnum is used to pass through or invert so it is a different function than the external one.
As far as the DC fuse you ordered for the Magnum at 400A, that is the max capacity of the Inverter but that may not be what the coach wiring is sized to handle. The job of that fuse is to protect the inverter from overload and pulling too much DC current and to protect the coach DC wiring. You need to find the main house DC fuse and see what the size is. I would stay with that fuse unless you have problems. Let me know when you find it or if one does not exist. If anyone else knows where it is please let us know.
Hope this helps.
Later Ed
-
My friend went to an estate sale this morning and found a box. I think it might work so I took photos of it. It is alot smaller it takes 3 regular sized breakers and says 40 Amps Max. Takes 3 breakers and has a buss bar for neutral and one for ground. Here is what it looks like.
-
Gary,
In you photo I cannot see if the copper is all tied together into one buss or not. If it is, it could work. You would have to find breakers that fit and be sure the cover knockouts fit those breakers. The cover is an integral part of mechanically holding the breaker in place and I cannot tell if the openings width wise fit whatever breaker you have selected.
Later Ed
-
Ed the copper is all one piece. The 20 amp breakers fit perfectly and the cover fits like it is supposed to if the new 30 A single pole is the same width they will fit.
-
Gary,
Should be good to go, the neutral buss is the raised ones on the plastic standoffs that is isolated from the box. Pretty sure you had that down pat but just in case.
You are getting close, the only thing that is up in the air is if you have a main DC fuse in the house bank lead to the inverter and what that fuse value is. Need to still sort that one out. You may want to call BCS if someone on the forum doesn't know.
Later Ed