BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Dan DeKorte on July 12, 2014, 08:27:47 PM
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[face=Arial]Hello, I am currently having a major issue with my 2000 Beaver Patriot 33' Concord with regards to a particular wire that seems to be shorting out. It is a wire coming from the CB23 fuse in the front electrical bay and it is labeled #270 Ign Mag ID and later it includes the number 571. Can anyone give me an idea where this wire routes to? I have been trying to trace it for an hour to no luck, and in all the schematics cannot find the C5 layout for my year of coach.
Thanks,
Dan DeKorte[/face][size=9][/size][size=14][/size]
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Dan,
The Mag ID was the predecessor to the Silverleaf system that your coach came with. So I would guess that it may be the power supply for your Silverleaf system. However, I would suggest that you get a tone generator, and that will make tracing the circuit fairly simple.
Gerald
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Gerald thank you for the response! :) I should have been a little more precise in my last post. My father is a electronic guru and has been assisting me with the problem. The wire draws 35 amps of current causing the 15 amp breaker to pop, then once it has a chance to reset it will take between 3 & 8 seconds to draw enough current to pop the breaker again. We have attempted to use a wire tracer to no success as we think this wire is grounding out somewhere in its path. We had determined that the silverleaf was effected by this wire, but once unplugging the connector of the silverleaf the issue was still there. So that lead us to believe that wire is supplying power to a system that feeds a signal to the silverleaf. We can follow the wire up through the bulkhead, but loose it once inside the coach as it is in the corner and there are of course several wire bundles supplying items behind the dash and the switch panel next to the driver side. I am hoping BCS in Bend might be able to tell me the first point the wire connects to in order to test that system out. Thanks again.
Dan
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Dan,
Try disconnecting the wire at the breaker and at the Silverleaf. Then put an ohmmeter between ground and the wire and see what the resistance is. That will tell you if there is a path to ground. If there is you can start moving wire bundles where you think that wire may travel and see if you can get the meter to respond. If you get a response you should be able to locate the short. If that fails then route a new temporary wire between the breaker and the Silverleaf and see if the problem goes away and if the current draw is appropriate. If so route it permanently as a replacement. Then check to se that all the accessories work so that you know some other item was not fed by that wire.
Later Ed
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Thank you Ed for the response. Unfortunately we have already ruled out the power to the silverleaf as the issue, the problem still occurs once you remove the wire connector from the back of the silverleaf, thus removing the actual silverleaf display unit from the issue. Also the #270 wire is not part of the six or so wires that connect to the back of the silverleaf, they are actually 16 or 18 guage wire not the 14awg that the feed line is. Can either you or Gerald or another member tell me if the VMS200 unit has another box/brain unit somewhere else in the coach? Or is it completely contained in the in-dash display? Maybe there is another power relay that the wire connects to?
Luckily for me I am not full-timing, and this problem just ruined a weekend camping trip. I am able to leave it in my driveway for a couple of days.
Also let me just say that I am very thankful to have this forum & members as a great resource for our coaches! We are signed up for the Redmond rally, which will be our first, and am looking forward to it!
Thanks again,
Dan
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Dan,
If you disconnect the 270 wire at the CB23 and did an inventory of everything that works and does not work it may lead you to an understanding if that circuit does branch and feed other items. If so you can disconnect those items one at a time at the units and see if lifting any of those wires reduces the current. If not you know for sure that it is the harness wire.
As far as the Silverleaf is concerned I think it is a self contained unit but I have no in depth knowledge of the unit to be sure. It would just seem that the circuitry to do that job would well fit into that housing and that appears to be true from a quick check at their website. They are still in business and you could probably reach them through the website or call.
http://www.silverleafelectronics.com/node/1
You may also want to call BCS and see if they have run into this problem and have some knowledge of that circuit. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Thanks again for the response, I will be talking with BCS to see if they can shed some light on the subject. I will see if I can tear into the harness a bit more to find the termination point. Will post the results once I figure it out.
Dan
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Dan,
I would consider doing that inventory of what will not work that I mentioned with the wire lifted off the breaker. I say that because that wire heads to the dash to pick up the Silverleaf and there is not a lot of places to hit ground up there where you would expect chafing. If it heads under the coach that may be a different story. If it pulls a pretty steady current at 35 amps I think it is more likely a defective unit of some kind at one of the termination power feeds.
Later Ed
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As best I can tell, the only system not working is the Silverleaf, I will do as you suggested and try to locate the wire inside the coach. It is somewhat intermittent as I fired the coach up and backed out of my RV cover to work on it yesterday morning, and it did not have any issues. Will try the ohm meter between the wire & ground, and see if the resistance changes upon moving the harness, and see if any other systems are not in operating order.
Thanks again!
Dan
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Dan,
Just to follow-up on an earlier question you had regarding the Silverleaf. It gets this information from basically the diagnostics side of the engine/transmission output. This data comes to the Silverleaf from the brain boxes and reconstructs that data into the information you see on the Silverleaf screen. If the data appears to be correct on the screen then you can assume the connections to those data streams are good. I think the wires that connect to the Silverleaf come directly from the diagnostic plug under the dash.
Good luck,
Karl
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Dan,
One other thought is that 35 amps is over 400W which means a lot of heat should be created somewhere. Although I have never tried it you might scan along the harness and around under the dash and the Silverleaf unit with an infrared gun and see if you get any indication of a local region of heat rise.
Later Ed
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Well, I decided to try to see if sitting overnight changed anything, and so I re-attached the wire in question to a spare breaker at CB30, and all was good & working. The silverleaf powered on and was receiving the data, everything seemed to work except I now have the ABS light on the dash lit up. I decided to see if all of the switches worked, and all did except when I clicked the interconnect a couple times the wire in question started drawing current and popped the spare breaker, ABS light still on, silverleaf until went dead. Wait ten or so seconds, ready with the current draw amp meter, and when the breaker reset it showed drawing 37 amps. Argh, what a pain in the arse! At this point I am going to abandon the project and wait until I can talk with a tech from BCS to see if they have any insight to this problem. The infrared thermometer is a good idea, but I am not sure I can get a reading as fast as the breaker pops, might give it a shot later.
Thanks again for the replies!
Dan
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Dan,
What interconnect did you click when it started conducting current? You were connecting and disconnecting the Silverleaf I think which would imply that the connector may have a short or somehow the Silverleaf harness at the unit is shorting. I say that because it seems unlikely that any circuit or semiconductor within the Silverleaf can survive a 37amp draw and survive to live another day and this seems to reset and work again so I think the fault is wiring near that interconnect and not the electronics. Sometimes there is a relatively heavy duty diode to protect for reverse polarity which could be breaking down but with this amount of current I think it is unlikely that would survive and not be fried. If your meter has the capability of being a clamp on DC meter try clamping it on the wire at a point a couple of inches behind the interconnect that induced the problem and see if that location sees the high current if you can induce it again. If so the wiring harness is fine before that point and the problem is beyond that location.
I cannot remember if the ABS light comes on when you first turn on the ignition. If it does then you should be able to disconnect the 270 wire and see if you lose that light when you turn on the ignition implying that the ABS is also wired to 270 and could then be involved in the high current issue also.
Later Ed
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Ed, I was using the house and chassis interconnect switch located on the drivers switch panel next to the exhaust brake & heated mirrors.
The ABS light now stays on with or without the 270 wire connected to the breaker panel, and motor running or just the key on does not change any of the problems previously noted.
The silverleaf was disconnected at the back of the unit, and either connected or disconnected the problem still occurs, so I can rule out the silverleaf head unit as having a shorted wire inside or the power to it. There has to be another relay/solenoid/diode/switch/etc that the 270 wire connects to supplying more that just the silverleaf.
I do have a clamp on amp meter and will test the wires at the interconnect switch and the big boy solenoid to see if we have a heavy draw.
It is over 95 degrees outside right now, so I am going to work on it again in the am.
Thank you to all who have been contributing!
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Dan, I think Ed's idea still bears value regarding the connector to the Silverleaf. Hooked up or not, the short could be between wires inside the plug at the end of the wires. Not likely I reckon, but worth close examination.
The fact that the Boost switch popped the breaker should be a clue, and I think you will be on track in the morning. The ignition switch is involved throughout these suspicious circuits, and is a known problem point, so I'd include a perusal of its connections as well.
Joel
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Dan,
Because the current took off with the use of the Big Boy solenoid I was thinking that the drive coil in that might be shorting but it should only activate when the switch is pressed being a momentary switch in series. Earlier I was confused what you meant by interconnect when you were talking about the Silverleaf, thanks for clarifying that......
If you disconnect the 270 wire and hit the battery combining switch, see if the Big Boy no longer clicks, then you know that it must be powered by the 270 circuit. The coil is supposed to pull 5.6 amps during activation which would mean it should read about 2 ohms. All of this still does not explain the 35amps of draw at times when you are not pressing on the battery bank combining switch even if the Big Boy coil was shorted. The reason to check to see if the Big Boy is driven by the 270 wire is that if it is, the wire junction point you have been looking for might be in that side panel with the battery combining switch. You could then see where those wires branch to and what is involved. This is a guess that the junction point is in there but it seems unlikely that each item in that side panel has an individual DC wire in feed to power it.
I have no idea why the ABS light is on. Maybe it will go away when the rest of this gets sorted out...always hope.
Later Ed
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Dan,
This tool is the best I have ever used for finding a shorted or broken wire in a large bundle. Here is the website for the Power Probe ECT2000 http://www.powerprobe.com/ect2k.php
Just click on video and it will show you how it works.
Steve J
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Sorry I had typed out a post and must not of clicked the Post Reply button, oops! Well BCS did not have any information for me, so I am back to self-diagnosis.
Steve, my father has one of those tracers, but a he did not bring it along on Saturday, so will try that next. Thanks for the heads-up.
Ed, I tested the theory of removing the 270 wire and engaging the interconnect switch, and it clicked just like normal, so not sure it is actually part of the issue, probably just a timing thing.
Joel, everything works as it should regarding the ignition switch, coach engages the front solenoid, and will start & run just fine, so not sure it is the culprit, but I will look at it to see if the wire comes anywhere near the switch.
I am getting a 1998 Monterey electrical wiring schematic from a friend tomorrow, so maybe that will shed some light. I really was hoping someone on the forum would have a complete schematic for a 2000 patriot, I would be willing to pay for the shipping to get it to me so I could make PDF files of it for everyone's use, seems like that year is unobtanium :-/
Thanks for all of the advise, really great to have a group of people so willing to contribute!
Dan
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Dan,
This is a tough one, I guess you are just going to have to slug it out with tracers and meters until find the culprit.
The one thing that comes to mind is that you cannot seem to find anything beyond the Silverleaf that seems to operate using the 270 wire. And yet the Silverleaf does not seem to draw excess current. I would consider running a new wire from the breaker to the Silverleaf and leave the old 270 disconnected and see what the outcome is. If all is well then go with it for now. In time you can confirm that everything electrical continues to run. Any item that you find over time that does not run without the 270 becomes a suspect for the excess current draw. You could connect those items one by one until you find what is the current culprit. (so to speak)
Later Ed
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Dan,
I reviewed the 03 Marquis wiring diagrams on the BAC site. They show the 270 wire as the MPX- for the VIP ECU. It's a 20awg and runs between C34A pin 3 and C35 pin B. wire 272 is the ECU MPX+ in the same connectors. Probably not much help but for what it's worth.
Steve
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Thanks, again for the suggestions and the time each of you has spent helping me with this issue, I really appreciate it! I am going to try a couple of things over the weekend, hopefully my buddy will come through with the schematic and it sheds light on the location of the wire termination. I am in the middle of a kitchen & living room remodel as well, plus my work schedule is getting busy, so my time is split amongst several needs!
Will keep you posted on the progress!
Thanks,
Dan
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Well I decided today was the day the we try to figure this darn wiring issue out. My Father bought his PowerProbe ect2000 and we started cutting the zip ties behind the dash following the silverleaf harness. We found a butt connector with the infamous #270'wire feeding one side and three other wires receiving the power. One was the smaller silverleaf wire, the other was labeled 270-b and went to a round connector that was not plugged into anything(I think it was the predecessor to the silverleaf, and the third was a wire labeled ign spare. The last wire ended in a butt connector, and the output was a red wire that was not factory installed. We decided to clip the red wire and try to see what went dead. After turning the key on with the 270 wire re-connected in the electrical bay, we had the silverleaf back on, and all seemed good until I tried the backup camera. It did not work. So after another hour of tracing, disconnecting devices, adding power, etc, we determined the there is a wire that heads from behind the tv, and into the a pillar access that is intermittently grounding out. Since everything seems to work, we left the wire with no power to it, and buttoned the dash up. It was amazing how many wires were feeding systems off of the one #270. One circuit went into a breaker box behind the tv that activates a relay, and has 110 circuits inside the box. I have to take the coach to the RV repair place locally on Thursday, so will see if anything else's seems to not work.
Ed, or anyone else who knows, there is a ballast resistor mounted to the frame near the air tanks below the dash behind the front bumper that has a 4 wire plug, any ideas what that is for? Also it seems as though we have a small vacuum pump behind the front bumper that is somehow tied to the resistor, can anyone shed some light on those two items?
Thanks again for the suggestions, and will let you know if I ever find out what I am missing!
Dan
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Dan,
I think the resister is for the heat/air conditioning fan speed control. See if it is tapped for the various speeds. you can also carefully touch it with the dash fan off and then with it on to confirm that is what it is for. Careful, it gets hot. The vacuum pump is for the AC/heat controls, moving the doors using vacuum actuators that moves the air flow from floor to vent etc. These are GM controls and typically would use a vacuum port from the intake manifold on a gas engine in a car.
Later Ed
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The 12v lead into the 110v box may be for locking out the main TV whenever the ignition is on.
Joel
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Update: Well went to a close state park for the weekend, and never noticed any missing systems while driving. I cannot use the dash A/C at this point due to a compressor replacement, and not charging the system yet, but the fan & heat side work fine. ABS light stayed on the entire time I was driving, and when parked I pushed the diagnostic button, and it flashed eight times, then a pause and one time. I would assume this means a 81 code. One problem seems solved, and on to another, got to love it!
Thanks again for all the assistance, I really appreciate it!
Dan