BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Norm Green on October 11, 2014, 04:20:28 PM
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Got everything loaded into the coach over the last few days to leave for Kerrville. Started the coach up and took it off air level to travel mode and only the drivers side will inflate to the proper height. The passenger side, all airbags, will not inflate. I listened for air leaks and hear none. When I put the air level system in manual mode, I can not inflate the passenger side but I can inflate or deflate the drivers side. I have check the electrical connections to the level pad next to the driver and all are good. It appears that the passenger side is not getting any air. Any ideas on where to start looking.
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Sounds like an electrical or control problem to me. As simple as it sounds, have you tried turning the system off and then back on again? another fairly simple thing top check would be the connections in the back of the control pad. Since there are at leat 4 seperate solenoids or valves that have to open and close(one for each corner), it's doubtful that two seperate valves would malfunction at the same time.
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Thank you Robert, I have checked the wire connections on the underside of the controller. The unit I have is a Power Gear Valid, air only system. I checked the air pressure at the service outlet, where I fill my tires from, and I have 120psi. I will continue to look for a possible electrical failure.
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I contacted Valid's 24 hour support line and got a call back within 15 minutes. I was told that it is most likely the right rear height control valve because in travel mode, Valid relinquishes control the factory components, whatever that means. He asked me if I could do anything in manual mode and when I told him that when I turn on manual mode it starts to dump air from the drivers side and I can not manually raise the passenger side. He then told me I also have a bad controller because it shouldn't do anything in manual mode unless I select a button. He told me that Beavers and Monaco products locate the control panel below the drivers side window and that they always get wet. I asked him if there was anything we could check with the controller, fault codes or something, and he said no, he was sure it was wet and bad.
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Per Gerald's suggestion, I attempted to turn off the power to the level controller. I did this with the key in the ON position. When I started the coach, the power to the controller came back on. When I attempted to turn the power off while the engine was running, it responded with a beep but would the controller would not turn off. I then disconnected the wires to the controller. I then started the coach but it still would not level, even after running for 15 minutes or so. I crawled under the high side of the rear of the coach to see if the height control valve linkage was still connected on the passenger side. It is connected, of course it is at a different angle than the driver side because the bags on the passenger side are not aired up. I attempted to contact Ken Carpenter at BCS but they are closed today. Any other suggestions greatly appreciated.
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Norm
Sorry I cant help but do be careful working on the air while under the coach. Remember to use jack stands!
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Something similar happened to us when leaving on a long-planned 6 month trip in 2012. By playing with the pad I eventually got things up enough to travel and made it the 150 miles to Bend. BCS found a broken disconnect at the front height control valve underneath; the rod was just hanging there. I have no memory of how I managed to get the coach front up with that broken, and me just playing with the control pad by the side of our street, unless I did it via the leveling system and not in Travel Mode.
This apparently is a very common break. As far as I'm aware, there is one hcv for the front and 2 in the rear. You said you checked them, but because of its common failure rate I'd be absolutely sure the linkage is sound. The black connector secured with a stainless hose clamp is usually the culprit; I think it's at the axle end of the connecting rod and not at the actuator arm end, but could be either I suppose.
You may already be up on all this stuff, but thought I'd proffer it given our experience.
-Joel
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Joel, thanks for the information. I have some 2x12 ramps I am going to drive the back of the coach on so I can more safely inspect the arm. I contacted Power Gear Valid again and was told that the only way for their system to give up control to obtain travel height is that power to the system has to on and the travel mode selected. I will inspect the arm but if it is OK, then I assume it must be in one of the solenoids. Not sure if I can come up with a work around to force it to let air into the passenger side.
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OK, I don't see the guys here with the most savvy of this logged online at the moment. I noted in one older HWH manual online (1999) their diagrams revealed 12v inline spade fuses, to the battery, in holders with covers, apparently one fuse per solenoid. I'm not familiar enough with the undercarriage to be any guidance as to where to look, but might speculate a blown fuse. But you say yours is Power Gear, not HWH, at least for leveling and not travel. So that puts me even further out in left field I'm afraid. Hopefully one of the regulars more familiar with these things will come onboard. I suspect they are all, like you were trying to do, on their way to Kerrville and not online.
First things first, check the integrity of the right rear height control valve connecting rod clamps. I think the material they are made of deteriorates in time, then cracks off after setting awhile unused and then suddenly activated. It could be something else entirely including a damp or corroded panel circuit board, but its a first place to look. Like Keith said, be careful under there, especially dinking with height valves; even up on ramps I'd block the rear axle, but that's just my cautious nature. If the clamp is shot, you may have a chance to get to Kerrville if you can fashion a temporary clamp of some sort. It also occurs to me that it may be as simple as the stainless hose clamp ring has loosened and is allowing the rod to slide?
:o
Joel
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Norm,
Does the control pad give any fault codes? On mine when one of the solenoid valves failed I had a fault showing the front right was not airing into travel mode.I was still able to raise it manually enough to be able to drive. It still flashed fault but at least it was raised enough to drive - it didn't react we'll to corners as the travel solenoid wouldn't allow for raising or lowering.
When I was unable to auto level (air), the control panel just beeped when auto selected. Valid informed me it was a bad control pad - new one sent and all worked.
I guess this doesn't help you much, just some of my experiences. I have a very large file from Valid that goes through set up and trouble shooting I can send to you, however if they feel it is not their unit then that won't help you.
Jeff
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I got the low side of the coach up on several 2x12 blocks and crawled under to take another look. Both height adjustment arms and their associated clamps are in take and look good. I did notice that the one on the drivers side is painted blue and the other one appears older. Anyway, I can easily move the rod assembly on the passenger side, moves without effort. When I attempt to do the same on the drivers side, there is a lot of resistance and I can hear a little air escape. That tells me that there is no air coming from the solenoid block, but that is where I get stumped. The solenoid block is high above the frame on the drivers side. I have Coach Net and an extended warranty. I am thinking about calling Coach Net for help.
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Hi Norm, I just emailed you contact info of another 08 PT owner that had this same problem back in June. It would probably be good for you guys to be on each others first call list.
Good luck.
--Mark
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Norm,
I do not have air leveling with a keypad controller on my coach, just the SMC hydraulic system, and the over the road air leveling using those control valves with the arms that set the road height. I had an occasion when the coach aired up and one rear side did not add air to the air springs so the coach was very tilted. I moved the coach in a straight line a few feet and hit the brakes to abruptly stop and after a second try the coach started to air up. Evidently one of the valves can stick and this maneuver seemed to break it loose. You will have to check that you have the front wheels straight and that you have clearance in the wheel wells so that it is safe to move the coach a few feet to try this maneuver. I do not know if my problem source matches yours but I passed this along for you to consider. If you rationalize that a sticking valve could be your issue then it may be worth a try. If it is, the good thing is that it has not happened since so it did not mean that I had a defective valve that continued to be an issue.
Later Ed
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I want to thank everyone who has written me to help with my problem. I contacted Coach Net and spoke to a tech support guy who tried to walk me through a reboot of the Valid air control system. He also sent me a copy of the procedure from Valid along with an operating manual. The process begins with the removal of the fuse in the J1939 CAN bus. The tech thought this would most likely be located on the ceiling of one of the bays. Well I have looked everywhere and can not find where this part is located. Does anybody have an idea where the central control for the air leveling system might be located. Thanks.
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Norm, look in the electical bin for leveling control, driver;s side in front of left front tire. there are a series of fuses there. Check them and connections.
I had a similar problem, but it impacted both sides. Coach wouldn't come to travel mode. I ended up dumping all air. Then started the engine. The compressor brought us back to ride height even though display wouldn't indicate it was at height. Did a manual check and all clear. Buzzers and bells continued for about 5 miles then stopped.
My problem was a bad board-- Valid says this is fairly common because of the placement of the board relative to the window on the driver's side.
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Norm, at least with HWH the control module is upside down on the ceiling of the electrical bay as Ron indicated. Not sure about Valid, but if HWH is your travel balance control, that's where it should be; immediately beneath the floor of the left drivers panel makes sense if, like mine, that's where your button panel is.
Joel
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Norm,
Make sure the pass side height control rod is not loose and that the solenoid is actually being activated when you move the rod. (and BE CAREFUL under the coach).
Steve
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This is going to sound really stupid but make sure the tag axle is down. The drivers side on our coach doesn't go up all the way if we have left the tag axle up. BCS told us that is common.
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I checked the electrical compartment outside below the driver and there is no module there, I even looked in the dash access compartment but no luck. When I move the passenger side height control rod, it does not activate anything. I'll take a fresh look tomorrow morning. Thanks again for all the suggestions and support, this group rocks.
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Norm,
I read your post this am and so I looked in mine. The closest I can see are in the electrical bay:
One 20 amp fuse marked air level on one board
One 15 amp fuse also marked air level on another board;
A small separate board that has a 5 amp front level, 10 amp rear level, 5 amp for control pad, 7.5 amp for hydraulic level, and a 20 amp for compressor.
I know there is an emergency procedure for operating the coach outlined in the manual. I'm not suggesting you use it to move it, rather see if it does anything. If it does, then likely rules out mechanical problems, if not then likely as the techs have told you it is likely something to do with the control pad or the Valid system.
Jeff
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I took a fresh look at my problem this morning and did a variety of testing and observations based on the diagnostics manual the tech at Coach Net sent me. I have a word document of those results if you are interested. I have checked all the fusses in the electrical bay and found them all good. I have attempted the emergency over ride with no results. I will be calling Coach Net again to see if they can find someone to come out to fix this thing.
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Norm, I'm surprised you didn't find the control module, but then I'm hardly familiar with all coach configurations. Just as a reference, here is a photo of mine on the ceiling of the electrical bay:
-Joel
I'm not sure I've ever seen a fuse in that bay... they are virtually all circuit breakers, including several HWH and leveler ones.
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Joel,
That is an HWH unit. I had one like that on my 05 Patriot, but on mine and I expect Norm's they use the Valid system. I scoured the coach this morning and can't find anything that remotely looks like the HWH unit. Not saying there isn't but I don't know where it may reside.
Norm,
Coachnet or Valid may be able to help as it sounds like a systems problem if the emergency override won't do anything. It is Thanksgiving weekend here in Canada and I know Valid is based in British Columbia, but they
may have emergency contact personnel.
I'd take the control pad out and look on the back of it and record the model number. Also it seems to me that a light may be on the underside of it is properly powered. If it simply the control
pad, then I expect Valid can likely get one to you quickly.
Jeff
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Joel, thank you. I have nothing on the ceiling of the electrical bay. I have also looked in the dash and found nothing. I have two large storage bays. In the first on, just behind the front tires, the only thing mounted is the solar control module. In the second bay, just in front of the water bays, the only things mounted are my central vacuum, my surge guard and my Magnum Inverter. I even took down the ceiling cover to confirm there is nothing there. I also looked through the sliding panels where you access the water pump and in the electrical box in the engine compartment, nothing.
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I contacted Coach Net and they checked and can't get anyone qualified out today. They will attempt to find someone Monday. When I spoke to Valid tech services, he said that I had a bad control pad and he also thought I had some other mechanical solenoid issues. His only option was to sell me a new pad on Monday. Looks like I am waiting until tomorrow.
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Norm,
I think the control is in the ceiling of the first storage bay. You will have to pull out the slide tray, crawl in there and remove the screws attaching the ceiling panel. You will find the leveling control module along with several other modules there if it is like my coach. I recently had to find a fuse to the dash ac condenser fan and it was in a chassis control module located in the same place. My leveling controller is in the ceiling of that bay and I too have the Valid system. I have some photos if you think that would help.
Steven Link
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Thanks Steve, I really appreciate the information. I did check both storage bays but only took the ceiling cover off the back bay, not the first. I will do that first thing tomorrow morning. I would appreciate any photos you might have.
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Norm,
Here is what I have there are several fuses and relays in this HWH leveleze. It is in the ceiling of the first bay under the ceiling board. I think Monaco used a Hybrid form of the Valid/Powergear leveling. My coach has Air and Hydraulic leveling. This may only control the hydraulic part but I would still check all the fuses.
Steven Link
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Steve, thank you. I have found the unit, it appears to be just like your photo, including HWH on the side. I will attempt to see what I can do now to restore communication and put the coach into travel mode.
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Norm,
You are welcome! Please let me know what you find and the fix. If you ever need to find it the fuse for the dash ac condenser fan is in the CCM in that same area. Took me and a very good tech at Link Automotive 6 hours for find it. :( The sharing of knowledge on this board is invaluable.
Steven
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Thanks Steve. I have checked all the fusses and they are all good. The diagnostic manual tells me to remove the fuse from the particular module I am having problems with. Unfortunately, nothing is labeled. I have done everything I can think of without any luck. This morning, the Valid keypad decided not to turn on. When I push the power button I get no response. When I turn the key on, it comes on for about 10 seconds and shuts down. I have unplugged the power harness on the back of the keypad several times hoping to reset it but no luck. At this point, all I want to do is bypass the leveling system and get the couch aired up to travel so I can get it Kerrville and serviced. Coach Net contacted a company in Nashville to come out and try to get it fixed, Shackeleford Enterprises. Hopefully they will be out later this afternoon.
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Norm, hope you got things going this morning. But Steve should get the prize for finding the box. Interesting that it was housed in a box marked HWH instead of Valid! Also want to concur that info on this site is priceless. Thanks to all.
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Norm,
Sorry but I think the photos I sent are of the slide out control box. It is not the valid leveling control box. I will look when I get home to see if I can find the valid box.
Steve
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Steve, You're right, the picture is of the slide controller. I contacted Monaco support in Eugene and they confirmed that there is no controller but that the keypad is connected directly to an accelerometer on the front and rear axle. Not sure what that means but I couldn't find any control box anywhere.
Coach Net sent out a tech this afternoon who determined that the right rear height adjustment valve was not functioning. Unfortunately we could not find a replacement anywhere local. I contacted BCS and Mike in Parts had one of the valves and is sending it over-night delivery. I think I have two suspension problems. One is the height control valve and the second is the leveling system. The tech said he would come back to install the new valve when it arrives. Hopefully that will at least put me on the road so I can arrange to service the leveling system. Looks like the earliest we can make it to Kerrville is Thursday evening.
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Norm,
Good luck, hope that fixes your problem. Good to know that there is no control box for the Valid/Power gear other than the keypad. I could not locate a control box but was limited on time due to the storms coming through here in TN last night. Had to get the beaver into her garage. If you find anything different please post.
Steve
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Norm,
Did you ever try what I recommended in my post about moving the coach straight a few feet forward and back and hitting the brakes? Sounds like you have a rear leveling valve whose arm that has stuck in position just like mine did once. When you move the coach and hit the brakes it moves the arm a little which usually releases it and if so it would allow the air to flow into the air springs. This is basically a simple valve with an arm on it tied to the rear end to set height.
Later Ed
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Norm already checked that I think, Ed. He blocked the rig up and crawled under 3 days ago, and found the curbside connector rod loose due to no backpressure in the valve, but otherwise intact and functional. The streetside rod was snug since that valve operates fine. His curbside valve just isn't getting air.
Joel
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Thanks Joel, guess I missed that piece, if he moved the rod manually and it did not air up then it sounds like it is not simply a stuck valve.
Later Ed
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Norm,
Hope you got things fixed, and are on the road.
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New Update: I got the height adjustment valve from BCS this morning and finally got it installed about 3:00. The part took care of getting the coach aired up but I still have issues with the leveling keypad. We put the pets in the coach and hit the road about 4:00. We are staying in a Sam's Club parking lot in Memphis tonight and plan to be in Kerrville sometime Thursday afternoon. The coach is riding good but I am making a list of items to have looked at. Thanks again for everyone's help. I'll see some of you in Kerrville where I can thank you personally.