BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Jeremy Parrett on July 12, 2015, 01:00:58 AM
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2000 Beaver Marquis Amethyst.
The door entry floor slide refuses to retract. It is air operated. I have power to both switches.
Could there be a fuse or a relay hiding somewhere?
Help!! It is really difficult for my 2 spaniels to make the jump out of the coach. Jane and I are using a step ladder.
Thanks, Jeremy.
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Jeremy, The air solenoid that controls that is in the left front electrical compartment. It is mounted on the front wall.
Steve J
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Jeremy,
In case the solenoid isn't the problem, the wiring for the switch should be;
-2 vertical tangs on the top (or bottom) of switch with one wire attached. This should be GND.
-2 sets of 3 horizontal tangs with wires on 3 of them.
- tang closest to vertical (GND ) tang is "Step Cover Open". Wire # is 131A.
-center horizontal tang is 12V. Should be there all the time.
-bottom horizontal tang is "Step Cover Closed". Wire# is 131B
I think you switch 12v and GND depending on whether you've selected open or closed so you should be able to check this if you can get to the switch.
Steve
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Mine was also acting up and it was a bad passenger side switch. IN the meantime you should be able to move the cover manually. Try putting you foot on it and just sliding it open.
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Hi Jeremy,
If you want imeadiate relief and access, after you park, set your park brake and turn off the engine, Pump the brake pedal repeatedly until you have NO air pressure on either needle of the air guage. You will now be able to manually push the step cover back in. The solenid in the electrical compartment that Steve mentioned is where I would start. It is a shuttle valve that has an air source supply. It has 2 air hoses going to the air cylinder that actuates the step cover. The dash or passenger switch tell the soleniod which way to shuttle and direct air to either side of the air cylinder thus extending or retracting the step cover. Start by having someone push the switch while you observe the solenoid and listen for activation of the valve. Check for 12volt going to the solenoid when the switch is depressed. Check for air pressure going to the valve and air going back out to either discharge hose going to the cylinder. It's actually fun to divide and conquor and it will lead you to your issue.
Regards, Fred
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Hello Fred,
I did as you suggested .Then installed a fibre glass rod into the slot to stop the panel sliding back out.
In the electrical bay under drivers window I see a flat black plastic part about 5 inches long, 1.5 inches deep and 2.5 inches high.. It has a solenoid at one end that is hot to touch .There are 2 air lines attached underneath and one on top. There is power to the solenoid.
I replaced the passenger side switch. It lights so it has power as does the dash switch.
Do you know the part number/make etc. I need to replace this part ?
Thanks, Jeremy
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Jeremy, I'll drive over my storage location and see if I can get a number off of the one on my coach. You have correctly identified the solenoid from your description. My only concern for your safety is if this rod you installed to trap the cover fails and someone is standing in the step well, they will get seriously hurt......I mean like broken bones. I would find which of the bottom 2 air lines are feeding air pressure to the step cover air cylinder and disconnect it from the solenoid and purchase a pipe plug to replace the fitting & hose until you can repair this.
Regards, Fred
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Jeremy, Went and looked at the valve hoping the get a name or model # unfortunately I did not bring any tools to remove it and look on the back side. I'm thinking maybe a "Norgren" anyway, if your inclined to this kind of repair, Beaver coach parts will probably have it. I would try and find it independently and save 70 percent. The silver valves on the bottom regulate air flow, may be able to shut off air flow then unplug the solenoid to eliminate the electrical draw on your batteries until fixed.
Regards, Fred
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Good reply, Fred. I was thinking along the same lines about his bracing back the cover - not that safe. Just popping off and plugging the air supply temporarily is better.
In my Monterey's electric bay is a combination of valve/solenoids. Don't know which is which, but the two-part, square black and silver boxed one with two black "out" hoses likely depends on the other round silver solenoid that has one "in" and one "out" blue hose, and which is apparently "upstream" or first in line from the air tanks. I'm guessing the blue hose "T'd" in between them goes to the door seal bladder, which should have its own tranny-controlled solenoid under the right front coach corner somewhere. The two-box contraption then probably controls the opening and closing of the step cover.
Does that sound about right, or am I getting things turned around? The one black box is made by Humphrey, #D1052, 4.5 watts; but your Marquis' may be different. Couldn't see any numbers on the cylindrical solenoid, although they may be covered by its large mounting strap.
-Joel
Addendum: you posted again before I got this one in, and yes, you fellows' Marquis configuration is different than mine. I was thinking along the lines that if he removed the wrong hose, he might lose air to the door bladder(s) too, no big deal. As long as he capped it off so as to not end up with a constant air drain.
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Hi Joel, I'm pretty sure the solenoid to the right of those 2 relays are the step cover solenid. You raise a good question, does my coach have an air bladder seal for the entry door? Like I shared earlier, my '00 Marquis is only 10 months old to me and just loving the challanges and quality. I can sure see why people are so dedicated and knowledgable about these classics. Thanks, Fred
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Yes Fred, you're right, this Forum is a font of knowledge for all of us. And for that reason, I'm sure someone here will eventually read this thread that knows precisely the configuration and operation of everything in my photo.
Of course I'm occasionally caught off the mark, but I've yet to see a coach without an air door seal; but then due to my great youth and inexperience ::) , I'm not sure how long they've been around. A check around the perimeter of your door frame (not the door itself) may reveal the collapsed bladder(s) - kinda like a flat bike tube I reckon.
Joel
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Joel
My Monterey does not have an air bladder around the front door. It also does not have an Aquahot/Hydrohot, electric cord reel, hose reel, electric door locks or any of the other things I see that need repairing on this forum. Apparently mine is really low end but we still love it.
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Yup, for sure the more stuff ya got the more there is to go haywire, and sometimes les is bes.
Joel
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Joel,
We do not have an air door seal in our '02 Marquis Amethyst, either! Lol!
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It's good to know there's a lot of people that don't have to worry about at least one type of inflation ;D .
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Oh crap!! Thanks for reminding me my door seal still does not work! I was feeling great this morning because my new cooktops turned out so well!
Now I need to screw up my courage and go shopping for RV parts again.
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Jeremy, The air solenoid valve your coach and mine is a Norgren 4-way part#K71DA00KS6K121W1 It is available from beaver parts for 265.00. Maybe someone may chime in on the forum where else to find one. The cheapest I found on Amazon was 209.00 although I did find similar ones for 23.00 on ebay but they were not Norgren valves. Hope this helps, Fred
Side note to Joel, went and looked at my entry door for a bladder seal. The only bladder I can find is the one located just above my 2 legs. LOL
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Perhaps we should just go to calling it "entry door air seal", so I'm not misconstrued when talking about it being full only when your engine's running, you're in gear, and your door is closed.
Joel
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Thanks everyone for so much great advice. I have found a Mac 45A-AA2-DFEA-BA air solenoid that Monaco uses for the step cover. Its widely available.
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Jeremy, Where did you find your solenoid, and what was the price, if I may ask? Henry
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Hello Henry,
apologies for my tardiness. I just closed the sale on our home and moved back on board our Beaver.
Here is a link that might help you.
http://www.ebay.ca/sch/sis.html?_nkw=MAC%20Valves%20Model%2045A%20SA1%20DACC%201BA%20Solenoid%20Valve%20New%20Old%20Stock&_itemId=370991647587
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Thanks, Jeremy !!!
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Jeremy, Went and looked at the valve hoping the get a name or model # unfortunately I did not bring any tools to remove it and look on the back side. I'm thinking maybe a "Norgren" anyway, if your inclined to this kind of repair, Beaver coach parts will probably have it. I would try and find it independently and save 70 percent. The silver valves on the bottom regulate air flow, may be able to shut off air flow then unplug the solenoid to eliminate the electrical draw on your batteries until fixed.
Regards, Fred
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I have the same solenoid as pictured in Fred Brooks reply. Can anyone explain a test procedure for that specific solenoid? I also question the rocker switch, three blade switch, top blade has power leed, 2nd blade unused, 3rd blade has a leed but no power no matter switch position? Could 3rd blade be ground? Unsure how that switch could activate solenoid?
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my 2005 uses this Humphrey valve http://www.nwrvsupply.com/product/D1052.html (it's $30) for the step slide cover. Perhaps this could be used in place of the more expense valve Fred describes. Is there any substantial difference to how these valves function?
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Unsure? Not sure wiring and air pressures etc would match up? Maybe someone else knows? But I have confirmed,I’m not getting power from switch to solenoid. There is power through assigned relays(2), power to switch, no power out? Guess I’ll jump switch? I was un sure how a 2 position switch could activate the solenoid for 2 directions?
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My two-position switch is just Slide "Open" or "Closed".
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My experience with motor homes (severely limited) is the range of models was set up just like GM did when they had Cadillac, Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, and Chevrolet.
Example
1958
Cadillac had power door locks standard
Buick, optional
Oldsmobile, optional on some models
Pontiac, don't even think about it
Chevrolet, no way
1959
Cadillac had power windows standard
Buick, optional power windows, power door locks standard
Oldsmobile, power door locks optional on all models
Pontiac, power door locks optional on some models
Chevrolet, what are power door locks?
1960
Cadillac had power mirrors
Buick, optional power mirrors, power windows and door locks standard
Oldmobile, power door locks standard, power windows optional on all models
Pontiac, power windows optional on some models
Chevrolet, power door locks optional
I don't know the hierarchy between Buick to Chevy, this is just an example.
We looked at several Beavers, and bought the 2005 because many of the nice features that models like Marquis had for a long time had trickled down to the Monterey. The Hydro Hot and the air leveling only were two of the best ones, along with the power bay doors.
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Mike, do you know if your switch is a three blade or two? If 3 blade, do you have a wire to all 3?
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This how my Step Close Out switch is wired (on my coach the wires are all white color with black writing). So three terminals used (Open, Power, Closed) and the other two terminals are the switch lighting.
This switch is in my drivers panel console. The other Step Cover switch is on the right side of passenger Seat (I did not pull that switch so I can't confirm if it wired the same).
I'm also attaching a diagram for the '07 Contessa Step Cover, but this model looks to have electric motors (not air an actuated) step cover. I don't think it is of any use to you - but it is interesting. In this setup there are two momentary (Step Cover) switches used to control the Step Cover motor "relays". They switch the ground side of the relay.
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Thank you Mike and Fred, you guys have been very helpful !! So I think my rocker switch is bad? I was able to use a jumper cable from the 5amp relay in the service compartment to the solenoid switch. The air piston extends, when I remove the power it retracts. I moved the cold wire from the 3rd blade to the second blade which has power and the slide operates. My concern is that when I felt the switch on the solenoid if felt warm/hot. Does anyone know if these Norgren solenoids are intended to function as I described, power on extend, power off retract? I have the same solenoid as Fred’s attached picture.
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Can you find the part number on the solenoid/valve? If so, you may be able to find it here and see how it is intended to work (i.e. page 12) http://cdn.norgren.com/pdf/KIPSolValv.pdf
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Mike, thanks for the link. I called yesterday and spoke with customer service who spoke with one of their engineers. Reportedly the switch on top of the valve will become warm/hot under normal operation.
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I moved the cold wire from the 3rd blade to the second blade which has power and the slide operates.
Glad you have it working. I'm wondering about the statement you made above. Did you move the wire around because you were not sure where it belonged?
If the wire was on the third blade (from factory) I would be concerned about moving it as that might mean you are now applying continuous power to the relay or solenoid where it was only intended to have monetary power (I don't recall now if the Step Cover switch stays in the open or closed position, or if it is spring loaded to return to the center/off position).
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According to IMI, the switch receives continuous power. Do you think differently?
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I agree that the "switch" receives continuous power. On my switch that is the center terminal (not counting the top terminal for ther switch light. As shown on the switch drawing I attached previously).
I just wanted to confirm that you are not applying continuous power to the air solenoid (which I dont think should have power when the Slide is in the fully opened or fully closed position. But I don't know this for sure).
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Mike, my apologies for causing the confusion. I should’ve been more clear. My rocker switch is different than yours. I have no light or dimmer control included with mine. It is simply a 2 position rocker with one position labeled “out”.
However the switch I was referring to in the previous post is the switch/ receptacle on the valve itself. The valve has a small electrical component mounted on top of it where the 12V enters the valve. This is what I was referring to as having continuous power during the “out” position. IMI, told me that is the design of the switch continuous power to activate the valve for the “out” position.
Do you believe the information about continuous power is incorrect?? That was my concern, over heating the switch/ safety, fire issues.
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having continuous power during the “out” position. IMI, told me that is the design of the switch continuous power to activate the valve for the “out” position.
Do you believe the information about continuous power is incorrect?? That was my concern, over heating the switch/ safety, fire issues.
I don't know how this solenoid is designed to work (the coil should be rated for continuous duty, which is possible). If the manufacturer/supplier says is it correct to have continuous power applied to the solenoid when the slide is Out (stepwell covered), then that is fine.
Maybe someone with a similar model coach/step-cover can confirm. My coach uses a different setup, and I could not find a wiring diagram for your coach to check.
At least it is only powered when "driving" (step cover in closed position) so it is not applying power to the coil the majority of time (i.e. no power applied when parked- camping).
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Could anyone who has the same valve as the one Fred Brooks pictured, confirm that when the step cover is closed, it is receiving continuous 12V power. A simple test light at the top of the valve where the power enters should be sufficient. Fred if it’s possible for you to do so, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, in advance!
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Greetings Chris,
Sorry it took so long, The Norgren valve requires 12volt power present to stay activated. When you turn the switch off, the spring loaded shuttle valve reverses the air flow thus retracting the air cylinder to the cover. The solenoid will be warm to the touch when activated. I did not perform an amp draw test to determine how much power it draws to stay activated. Hope this helps, Fred Brooks
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Fred, thanks so much for bringing this to a close for me!!
I do have some additional information for folks who maybe following this issue. Our couch has only one switch that activates the step slide cover. It is located on the center consol area of the dash, in reach of the front seat passenger. The switch is a 2 position rocker switch with 3 blades on the back, one of the blades on our switch is dead(failed) I ended up switching blades. 2 wire leads are attached to this switch, 1 labeled- 132 stepcover batt, 1 labeled- 142 stepcover sw. If you follow the 142 wire around the dash area to the drivers side wall it changes to- 142 stepcover sol. What happens at least with our coach, is the wire passes into the side wall compartment enter/exit via a 10 or 12 pin plug. In our case the pin responsible for 142 was burn beyond being conductive. I cut both sides of 142 from the multi pin plug. I then spliced a heavy duty blade fuse holder onto wire 142. I started with a 10A blade fuse, I’ve reduced down to a 3A and the step slide cover is functioning fine.
My problem was 2 fold, a bad rocker switch and a bad pin in a multi pin plug. I’m guessing that these two failures are related. Whether the switch began to fail or the pin within the plug preceded it, one most likely had something to do with the other.
I will say, my repair is in no way a recommendation to anyone to do the same. This is provided as information only not a recommendation for repair.