BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Richard And Babs Ames on July 01, 2010, 01:39:05 AM
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The Hydraulic motor fan is leaking fluid from the front (fan side) under load per two mechanics. Is the seal replaceable or do you have to replace the fan motor. Anyone know the model and brand?
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I do not know the make and model of your fan motor, but I think that most of the motors in the mid-nineties were Sauer-Danfoss.
Most of the hydraulic fan motors are easily repairable if they have not had a bearing failure, but you will probable have to take the motor to a hydraulic repair shop for service, or at least to get the right parts if you feel qualified to repair it yourself.
Gerald
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I've had a similar cooling system problem on my '96 Beaver Patriot. It's pretty much been down for overheating for past 6 months. In that timeframe I've had most everything eliminated except the actual hydraulic fan motor that runs the fan at the side-mounted radiator. I earlier had a leak in the hydraulic hose which sprayed fluid onto my toad. That was fixed by replacing the hose. The Beaver still overheated though. I've had the thermostat checked (okay) , the water pump checked (okay), the radiator removed and cleaned out and reinstalled.....still overheating. Then it was recommended that the problem was probably the "wax-valve" device that apparently controls the speed of the fan (based on engine temperature. That "wax valve" was removed and also found to not be the overheating problem. That pretty much leaves only the hydraulic fan motor to be the culprit. Of course, there is no serial or part number visible on that motor so I had it removed and shipped to the Beaver folks at Beaver Coach Sales & Service in Bend Oregon. They (Loren Cassidy - Service Advisor ( 800-843-2967) & their parts guy) looked it over and could not really identify any replacement part on hand or available. As of this week their suggested solution is a place nearby Bend Oregon that can build another motor to replace the one on my Beaver to the tune of $1900.00. I guess with the transfer of manufacturing/sales from Beaver to Monaco and to whoever purchased Monaco that nobody now really wants to bother with older part replacement.
So now I have my Beaver RV here in Augusta , GA with the fan motor in Bend Oregon awaiting my decision as to rather I want to have the motor replaced for $1900.00 or try something else. Not many options at this point except to ask any of you Beaver Ambassador Club folks out there if you have any other suggestions or perhaps somebody out there that has a wrecked mid to late 1990's Beaver (300 HP CAT engine) Patriot that has a working fan motor they'd like to get rid of (ha ha...fat chance).
Any suggestions out there? Perhaps a reliable hydraulics repair place somewhere else would be able to repair the motor for something a lot less that $1900??? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Gary Engen in Augusta, GA
1996 Beaver Patriot, 33' Savannah
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gengen, Here are some contacts for possible rebuild or seal sources. Mine leaks very little to 190 degrees or so but when it goes under load enough to smoke. We have oiled the toad twice and blew out about about (est) 2 quarts of fluid in 500 miles from Ohio to Western NC. Side radiator and cooler are saturated with Dexron and not as efficient but mechanic thinks we can make it back to FL OK not towing.
I was able to get a shaft seal replaced on a 1991 Baronett fan motor by a mechanic in Arcadia, FL that works mainly off road and he got an upgraded dual seal that was not OEM from Atlanta. It was a couple hours labor plus seal. You might get Beaver Coach Sales to do a google for their area and send the hydraulic motor to them for evaluation or ship it back to you and do it closer to home.
I also have found that calling a local truck/equiptment parts dealer from the yellow pages gets good reccomendastions for repair points for mobile diesel mechanics.
These are from a google for Sauer-Danfoss (US) Company
Sauer-Danfoss (US) Company
Florida
e-mail: Contact Us
Other / General
Action Hydraulics
7257 Westport Place, Building B-100
West Palm Beach, Florida
33413
Phone: +1 (561) 640-6066
Fax: +1 (561) 689-1245
Authorized Service Center / Appointed Service Partner
Action Hydraulics
7541 N.W. 54th Street
Miami, Florida
33166
Phone: +1 (305) 591-7273
Fax: +1 (305) 592-8285
Authorized Service Center / Appointed Service Partner
Berendsen Fluid Power
Full Line Distributor
1730 West Oak Commons Court
Marietta (Georgia), Florida
30062
Phone: +1 (770) 419-3430
Fax: +1 (770) 419-3439
Authorized Service Center / Appointed Service Partner
Distributor
Hydro/Power Inc.
4530 N.E. 35th Street
Ocala, Florida
34479
Phone: +1 (352) 236-3466
Fax: +1 (352) 236-1255
Authorized Service Center / Appointed Service Partner
Sunsource
Full Line Distributor
5390 East Ponce de Leon, Suite E
Stone Mountain (Georgia), Florida
30083
Phone: +1 (770) 491-6900
Fax: +1 (770) 414-9827
Distributor
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Some GA service points.
General Inquiries
Sauer-Danfoss (US) Company
Georgia
e-mail: Contact Us
Other / General
Berendsen Fluid Power
Full Line Distributor
1730 West Oak Commons Court
Marietta, Georgia
30062
Phone: +1 (770) 419-3430
Fax: +1 (770) 419-3439
Authorized Service Center / Appointed Service Partner
Distributor
Power Systems Of Georgia, Inc.
Work Function Distributor
805 McFarland Road
Alpharetta, Georgia
30004
Phone: +1 (770) 475-1680
Fax: +1 (770) 442-5522
Distributor
Sunsource
Full Line Distributor
5390 East Ponce de Leon, Suite E
Stone Mountain, Georgia
30083
Phone: +1 (770) 491-6900
Fax: +1 (770) 414-9827
Distributor
Advanced Fluid System
751 Hurricane Shoals Road
Lawrenceville, Georgia
30043
Phone: (770) 963-6164
Fax: (770) 995-3477
Authorized Service Center /
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Maybe I can shed some light to this issue. I taught industrial hydraulics for many years although I don't claim to be an expert.
The reason most hydraulic motors leak oil around the shaft seal is that they usually have too much internal leakage. (bypassing oil around the internal parts, much akin to blowby in piston engine rings created by internal wear usually caused by dirty oil.) No filtration on this oil or not changing the oil filter often enough when it is dirty.
Another reason for leakage is the shaft seal has been cooked by heat and is no longer pliable. Most of the causes for the shaft seal to be cooked is that the hydraullic motor has internal leakage and this bypassed oil is given up as heat which gets the hydraulic motor and case hot enough to cook the seal causing it to be brittle, wearing the seal lip down and or cracking the seal material. All hydraulic devices have a certain amount of internal leakage that is acceptable but excess is due mostly to wear caused by lack of filtration or dirty oil. A lot of hydraulic motors have three hydraulic lines to the motor, one is the supply from the pump to turn the motor, the second, usually as large as the supply is the return oil to the system and then the third is usually smaller to drain the leakage oil from the case back to the system.
Hydraulic motors are sized by cubic inches of oil used per revolution at a rated pressure.
They are categorized by their internal construction,I.E. gear motor, piston motor, and so on.
They can be interchanged by brand as long as the they are sized to the job being done and can be mounted in place. (Shaft size, Mounting brackets, hose location, cu. in./rev. max speed, etc)
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Mr Smith are the motors rebuildable or do they need to be replace along with the fluid and filter?
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http://www.precisionfluidpower.com/index.htm link was sent to me on RV.net for fan repair.
Made it home with leak and now my mechanic and time are on my side.
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I do not know the make and model of your fan motor, but I think that most of the motors in the mid-nineties were Sauer-Danfoss.
Most of the hydraulic fan motors are easily repairable if they have not had a bearing failure, but you will probable have to take the motor to a hydraulic repair shop for service, or at least to get the right parts if you feel qualified to repair it yourself.
Gerald
My mechanic (now that I am home) agrees and works on a lot of hydraulics and stated they are usually rebuildable and will flush and clean the system while at it. Part of the cause of loss was that I did not change the filter very often.
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Thanks for all your leads and info on getting my fan motor from my '96 Beaver Patriot repaired. Here is what I have found out so far. I contacted several of the Sauer Danfoss authorized service centers in the southeast USA and ran in to dead-ends on most but finally got some help at Berendsen Fluid Power, Marietta (Georgia), (770) 419-3430. A representative there named Stephen was very helpful. He verified that parts were no longer avalable for the motor but he thought that a newer series motor currently being manufactured by Sauer Danfoss may be workable on the Beaver if the 'switch valve" attached to the old fan motor could be used on a newer motor. He called the Ames, Iowa Sauer Danfoss plant and found out that there are two versions of switch motors on the old fan motors and that one attached with 2 bolts would be compatible but the other version that attaches with 3 bolts would not work with the newer motor. A new motor from Sauer Danfoss would cost in the neighborhood of $400- $500 but expected delivery time is 2 months as they do not keep any in stock (must manufacture one from scratch). Although 2 more months is a long time wait, the cost is way below the $1900 quoted to me from the folks out at Bend Oregon. So, now I am calling Beaver Coach Sales & Service again out at Bend, OR (where my fan motor is currently at) and have Matt tell me if it has a switch valve with 2 bolts or 3 bolts attaching it to the motor. If it is the 2 bolt version I'll probably have them ship the motor back to me and also call Stephen at Berendsen Fluid Power and have them order me one of the new motors that will allegedly match the '96 Beaver engine.
I'll keep you posted on what I find out.
Gary Engen
'96 Beaver Patriot
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Seems as though you got most of your questions answered about rebuilding the hydraulic motor. Sorry I am so late in getting back to this. Yes, Most hydraulic motors are rebuildable with an internal kit, meaning that most of the guts are replaced and use the old case along with replacing the shaft seal in the case. I am going to go on line and see if I can find any info on these motors. Does anyone know what they are rated at? The cubic inches of oil used per revolution and what pressure they are capable of running under? Are they a gear motor, gerotor, inline piston, radial in their internal construction? How are they mounted and what shaft size are they? Is it a splined shaft or keyed? I know this is a lot of questions but it may be helpful to find a new motor to replace it. What kind of switch(valve) is used to turn it on and off. Is the valve electrically controlled?
By the way, Did the old motor work, just leaking oil around the shaft seal or did you have heating problems that made you suspect the motor being bad?
This could go on and on. Again I will try to get some answers by going on line and seeing if I can find some motors.
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/www.surpluscenter.com
Look under this site and check out the motors. I have their catalog and found several Sauer-Danfoss motors that are designed for vehicle fan cooling operations. One is Model no. MN219-RAE06AS080 and by its appearance you might want to look at Sundstrand motors as they mount up the same way. A two bolt flange mount. Again to make a change over or to make a selection the cu.in./ rev are needed along with the max operating psi. If you have the time you might want to ask for their free catalog as it shows the details on the motors. Wished I could be of more help, Let me know if you need more help and maybe we can get on the phone to talk it out.
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http://www.sauer-danfoss.com/stellent/groups/publications/documents/product_literature/l1022962.pdf
http://www.sauer-danfoss.com/stellent/groups/publications/documents/product_literature/l1022491.pdf
Here are two sites that may give you some good information on fan cooling drive systems. You might use these to find out what you have and how to replace it.
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Arden:
Thanks for your links to fan motor repair/replacement possibilities. You had asked what led me to thinking my fan motor was bad. No, the motor was not leaking but the engine was overheating badly. I think I outlined the sequence of my problems in an earlier post but when mine first started overheating it appeared to be due to a leak of hydraulic fluid in the hose that is at very back of engine compartment that goes to the fan motor. The leak sprayed fluid onto my toad and I replaced the hose and fixed that problem. There never has been any leakage noted from the fan motor itself. But then the engine started overheating again and finally I had to slow down to 50 mph or even less to keep the check engine light from popping on and the engine from cutting out. I initially brought it to a large Caterpillar repair facility in Tampa, FL while on a trip nearby as I feared I could not make it back to Augusta , GA. The CAT experts checked out the thermostat and the water pump (all okay) then decided that the radiator needed cleaning out so that was taken off and serviced at a radiator specialist but after that it still overheated. The CAT "experts" were undecided what to do next and were trying to get proper fan speed RPM info from Lazy Days folks in Tampa when I decided I needed to get the rig home. So a long slow drive back to Augusta and back to my local RV dealer/repair facility. Telephone calls with the Beaver Sales people in Bend, OR suggested that the problem could be the thermal wax valve and that we should disconnect the hose to it that goes from the fan motor to the thermal valve, cap it off (by passing the thermal valve) crank the engine and if it did not over heat then it would mean the thermal valve was the culprit. Well.. after a short drive it still overheated so about all that was left that could be the problem causing the overheating was the fan motor itself. By the way, there did appear to be plenty of hydraulic fluid being pushed to the motor by the hydraulic pump motor. So...we removed the fan motor and shipped it to Bend, OR to see if they might have a replacement or at least be able to identify what motor I had and give us some advice from there. That is about where I am at now. I have about made my decision to have the fan motor mailed back to me here in Georgia. I am told that the switch valve on the fan motor from my '96 Beaver is compatible with a newer fan motor that Berendsen Hydraulics will order for me from the Sauer Danfoss Company. It will take a couple months for all that to happen and around $500 but that should fix the problem. I certainly hope it will as this has had my 'ol Beaver "deadlined" now since around January. :o
Gary Engen
'96 Beaver Patriot Savannah
Augusta, GA
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My mechanic is pulling our fan today. I am fairly certain that it has the two bolt switch valve. The mechanic has been trained by CAT and worked at a large CAT dealer in Ft Myers, FL before going on his own. He seems very experienced on hydraulics. Will post how it works out.
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Gary, I have been reading this posting with some interest and have been asking myself what would I do in your situation. My inclination would be to try and determine what the root cause is with some measurements, before removing components, if at all possible. A lot of shops are used to changing things out and following the paths of trial and error that they have been using for years to correct the problem. There must be a better way....
Certainly an IR gun comes to mind as a device to look at surface temperatures. Radiators can be scanned to see if there are indications of poor coolant flow patterns as well as thermastat housings and hoses for abnormal temperatures. Mapping a good working system for the temperature "footprints" vs your problem system would have to yield some differences and hopefully some clues as to the root cause.
Regarding the cooling fan, knowing the fan RPM at certain engine RPMs while the temperature is approaching an overheating condition would be useful knowledge. This profile on your coach vs one that has been cooling effectively would either indicate that the fan hydaulic system is the problem or not. These instruments in the scheme of things are relatively inexpensive nowadays and may yield the information you are looking for to assure that you are fixing the component that is the root cause of your problem. The IR guns are about $100 dollars and this laser tachometer is just over $200.
The IR gun is aimed at a surface to obtain reflected emissivity and the RPM instrument uses a laser and a piece of reflective tape placed on the fan to count revolutions.
I know this is a bit late and the fan motor is now off. I thought that I would pass this along for food for thought for all of us on the forum who might have a future cooling issue.
Just in case the fan motor is not the problem. Perhaps there is another Patriot owner out there that would be willing to map his working system with these instruments. It would serve two purposes, knowing what a working cooling system profile is as a reference for the future and maybe provide Gary with some problem solving insight. Gary, if the fan motor does not solve your problem you may want to consider buying these instruments and finding a working coach owner to profile his cooling system. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
http://www.transcat.com/catalog/productdetail.aspx?itemnum=99037TS
http://www.amazon.com/Raytek-Infrared-Temperature-Gun-RAYST25/dp/B000I2UKB4
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Update:
Motor pulled and my mechanic started dismanteling it. So far shows no contamination that would cause failure. Our motorhome has 110,000 miles on it and he thinks it is just a worn out motor.
He understands hydraulic systems as he built them from scratch for several years including fluid and electronic or other controls. He talks in the same terms as Arden Smith above. I should know what the final outcome and time frame will be next week.
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Update on Cooling Fan Motor on my 1996 Beaver Patriot:
This morning, Stephen, at Berendsen Hydraulics in Marietta, GA (a distributor for Sauer Danfoss) called and verified that Sauer Danfoss could build a new motor to replace the one on my CAT engine for $476.03 and have it ready in 3-4 days. So that is what I'm going to do. I'll provide an update when I get everything on and working again. Hopefully the engine will be running (and cooling properly) within next couple of weeks.
Gary Engen
'96 Beaver Patriot Savannah
Augusta, GA
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I also talked to Berendsen Fluid Power, Marietta (Georgia), (770) 419-3430 and Steven and he verified that my model TAM22-90/26.5 C107RULE/6F can be built for $396.69 with a 60 day window and expedited for 20% to a 3-4 day build time or $476.03 same as gengen plus shipping. They can have it shipped anywhere.
Update: Ordered on the 3-4 day build.
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Update on pump order through Berendsen Fluid Power, Marietta (Georgia), (770) 419-3430 and Steven last Thursday 07/15/2010 and it shipped Friday 07/16/2010 and is due 07/22/2010 using regular UPS ground shipping. The "build" in four days turned out to be in stock, so the extra 20% was a bit of a sting.
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Update on pump I also order through Berendsen Fluid Power, Marietta (Georgia), : Mine arrived in mail yesterday evening (20 July) straight from factory in Ames, Iowa. Looks great; now I'm just waiting for my old pump that is being returned via mail from Beaver Sales/Service, Bend, OR. As soon as I get that one back I'll bring it and new one to my local RV repair facility to install back on my '96 Beaver. Hopefully all will be well then and I can run again without over heating!
Gary Engen
Augusta, GA
'96 Beaver Patriot
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Received new motor today and took to mechanic. It matched so should be up and running in a couple of days. Shipping was under $20 regular UPS.
Ran into a snag. When the two bolt cover was removed it is the three bolt switch. The mechanic who has built a lot of systems is having an adapter plate machined to accomodate instead of waiting three months for a new assembly.
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My RV service mechanic just called to say that the "switch valve" on the old motor was not a 2-bolt assembly but instead that there are actually 4 bolts attaching it to the motor so it will not fit on the new motor that is drilled for a 2-bolt switch. I'll have to go down to look at it myself but in the interim I've called (had to leave message) Berendsen's in Marietta, GA (Distributor for the Sauer Danfoss motors) to see what they have to say. As I said in a previous post, I was told by the folks out at Beaver Service in Bend, OR (where I had shipped my motor initially) that it had a 2 bolt connection for the switch valve; but now find out that there appears to be 4 bolts securing it. NOW WHAT TO DO?? I'll keep y'all posted on this mess. Maybe I can get some sort of adapter made too. :( :(
Gary Engen
Augusta, GA
'96 Beaver Patriot
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I took some pictures this morning of the old & new motors along with the old switch valve (that does not fit new motor). I am emailing photo's to Berendsen Hydraulics who have said that it may be possible to order a new switch valve to match the new fan motor but it is manufactured by "Dynamatic" (sp ?) in the UK and would take a couple months to get and that is only if the specs on the old switch motor can be determined.
Richard Ames: I am anxious to hear results of the adapter you are having made for yours as it appears we have the same new motor and perhaps the same old switch valve. Maybe your mechanic can also make an adapter for mine. Below are a few pictures I took of the items today.
Gary Engen
'96 Beaver Patriot
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My guy gets back from his Alaska Vacation the 3rd of August and I will show him your pictures and let you know something.
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Talked to the mechanic and he said the four bolt holes are so you can orient the three bolt switch housing and the adaptor looks is going to work OK. Will install early this week and we shall see. gengen send me your contact information via private message or e mail.
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Install complete and the new motor seems to turn the fan faster than the old one. Should mean better cooling. Rodney from Red E Services Inc here in Arcadia,FL is a very good mechanic and used to build hydraulic systems. He has done several things for us using available resources instead of waiting for specific parts.
Having the cooling units cleaned tomorrow as the radiator, charge cooler,oil and hydraulic coolers all got drenched by Dexron fluid the Radiator shop is run by the third generation and extremely good at what they do.
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We have a 94 Patriot down with a hydraulic fan motor leak @ the Cummins shop in Fargo ND. The only fix they haring found (after they were referred to this Thread) was to have a new orbit motor made by Sauer Danfoss (I assume) with the 4 - 6 week delivery time. I wonder if Navistar management treat truck fleet breakdowns in the same casual manner? Can the association or Good Sam bring some pressure to bear? A bulletin to all Beaver owners stating the cause of the problem (heat, contamination of oil supply, substantard seals, etc.) seems to be in order as I am among serveral Beaver owners with this problem. Monaco, HR, and the suits running that outfit should be held to account as well. JOHNLYNN
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johnlynn Our Fan with the 4 to 6 week delivery was $398 and for a 20% up charge got it in 5 days. We ordered on a Thursday and it shipped on Friday (Sauer Danfoss had it on a shelf) and it ended up costing a bit over $500 with shipping.
The kicker is the fan switch is now a two bolt design and not part of the motor as we went through in getting ours fixed. The switch is made in England and has a 12 week order time or you can do as we did my mechanic had an adaptor plate ($130) made that allowed us to use the old switch. See pictures above. With labor ended up arround $1200.