BAC Forum
General Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stan Simpson on October 21, 2015, 10:30:54 PM
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I'm actively searching for a new portable water softener. I'm particularly interested in something that is easy to re-generate. Specifically not having to unhook the whole shebang each time it needs regenerating, which I have to do now. I find out that it needs re-generating at bedtime when SWMBO is washing her face..never in the morning when SWMBO is washing dishes. Which means I have to get up early and do it before morning showers or her hair is no good for 6 months! ;D The other advantage, besides convenience, is that I could permanently install it somewhere in a bay, or behind a bay.
Any ideas or suggestions would be welcome.
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All water softeners are going to require regeneration in which some water is going to be discharged as waste. Although I normally take mine outside and let the regen water spill on the ground, there's no reason why I couldn't leave it in place and run plumbing to take the regen water and run it down the drain. Mine is supposed to be back-flushed periodically and I'd have to figure out how to do that, but the basic regen procedure could definitely be done in place. Here's the the softener I currently own: [http://www.amazon.com/Watts-RV-PRO-1000-M7002-Water/dp/B0050EITTK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1445466257&sr=8-1&keywords=Watts+RV+PRO-1000+OR+M7002+10000+Grains+Portable+Water+Softener (http://www.amazon.com/Watts-RV-PRO-1000-M7002-Water/dp/B0050EITTK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1445466257&sr=8-1&keywords=Watts+RV+PRO-1000+OR+M7002+10000+Grains+Portable+Water+Softener)
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That is one I'm considering, Joel. How long does it take you to do the re-gen?
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I had that one as an alternative, but opted for the On the Go small one. It just fits standing upright in a compartment in and adjoining my wet bay, includes a rope handle, and it was a good buy, coupled with a couple special discounts, at Camping World a couple weeks back. I really intended to use it for spotless rinsing after washing my vehicles, but it fits in the RV well enough that I'll take it with us for when we encounter hard park water.
Sorry Stan, I haven't had a chance to actually use it yet, so can't advise in that regard, but it gets very good reviews. And I sure like its light weight, easy storage size, and overall portability. We're pretty conservative with onboard water use, so I expect it to go a while between recharges.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KVPNURO?psc=1
Joel
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Stan
We use the Watts RV-Pro 10000. It takes 20 min to recharge and you need 2 lbs of table salt and a short female-female hose that is not included to get the job done. You do have to do some rearranging of the hoses to recharge the unit. It gives a gradual warning when it needs to be recharged as the water gets hard gradually not all at once. Ours lasts at least 1 month and sometimes 2 months between charges.
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Stan
We use the Watts RV-Pro 10000. It takes 20 min to recharge and you need 2 lbs of table salt and a short female-female hose that is not included to get the job done. You do have to do some rearranging of the hoses to recharge the unit. It gives a gradual warning when it needs to be recharged as the water gets hard gradually not all at once. Ours lasts at least 1 month and sometimes 2 months between charges.
Our experience is the same as Dan's. The 20 minute recharge time is what the manufacturer recommends.
The time between recharging is entirely dependent on the hardness of the water in your area and your usage. At our Port Aransas winter site the water is extremely hard and we're lucky to get a month's use before recharging is necessary. We also have a washing machine which increases our daily usage.
You can actually calculate how many gallons you will get between recharging. It's a pretty simple calculation; the softener has ~10,000 grains of softening capability. If you start with water that has a certain number of grains of hardness and reduce its hardness to a "normal" number, then the grains used for hardness reduction come from the 10,000 you started with. Assuming you know roughly how much water you use each day, you can estimate how many grains per day of softening capability will be used and, therefore, you can estimate how long you can go before recharging.
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Stan,
I also have the RV Pro 10,000 and agree with both Dan and Joel about use and regeneration.
I ordered our softener directly from FlowPur. They are currently listed for $173.00 / and shipping to lower 48 is free.
https://www.flowpur.com/html/rv-pro10000.html
Darrell Terry
2004 Monterey
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Stan
Take a look at this site. I use their softners. I have a larger one at home for
use in cleaning and filling my water tank. The"mini" I take with me. Easy regen process and can either use salt pellets or potassium which I prefer.
http://www.stainlesswaterfilters.com/waterfilters-s/1814.htm
Leah
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Stan
Take a look at this site. I use their softners. I have a larger one at home for
use in cleaning and filling my water tank. The"mini" I take with me. Easy regen process and can either use salt pellets or potassium which I prefer.
http://www.stainlesswaterfilters.com/waterfilters-s/1814.htm
Leah
With all due respect, a company that sells softeners at extremely high prices without specifying the "grain" quantity is highly suspect in my book. It is meaningless to specify a supposed number of gallons that can be treated without knowing the hardness of the water being treated.
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Joel
Thank you for your very opinionated response. Good to know you are such an expert.
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Stan,
I also have the RV Pro 10,000 and agree with both Dan and Joel about use and regeneration.
I ordered our softener directly from FlowPur. They are currently listed for $173.00 / and shipping to lower 48 is free.
https://www.flowpur.com/html/rv-pro10000.html
Darrell Terry
2004 Monterey
I just ordered this one. It seems to get pretty good reviews on the web and it's about the lowest price I could find.
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Joel
Thank you for your very opinionated response. Good to know you are such an expert.
Leah:
What I said wasn't opinion it was entirely based on fact. The softening capacity of a device is based on a chemical exchange process in which sodium ions from salt are substituted for calcium and iron ions in the water. The "stuff" in the device is what's known as an "ion exchange resin" which facilitates this substitution of ions. When you put salt into a softener it is like fueling it up; this gives it new sodium ions to use to replace calcium ions.
Softeners are rated in terms of the number of "grains" of softener ions (sodium) they can hold because this number determines how many gallons of water with a particular "hardness" can be softened before more sodium ions have to be added. It's a pretty simple calculation and, if you are staying in one location, it's likely that you'll find that your own need to refill the salt (the proper term is regeneration) will occur on a regular basis of every couple of weeks depending on how hard the incoming water is and how much water your family uses on a daily basis. All the device is doing is "plucking" ions out of the incoming water and replacing them with sodium ions from the salt you have added. When the sodium runs out, it's time to add more. When you use a softener it's essential that you test your water on a regular basis; that's the only way you'll know when more salt has to be added; there's very little taste or "feeling" difference of the water itself.
When I examined the website of the company whose softener you recommended I could find no mention of the grain capacity of any of its products. They were adjectively described (large, extra large, etc) and a claim was made about the number of gallons of water each would treat, but, as you might understand by now, the number of gallons is not a constant and depends entirely on the hardness of the incoming water. Therefore, without a statement of the grain capacity of a device, it is impossible to know if the gallons of water treatment capacity that is claimed pertains to very soft incoming water or very hard.
What truly knocked my socks off about that website were the prices of the softeners, the largest of which was priced at ~$700. The 10,000 grain Watts softener I purchased is made by one of the country's leading "water companies" and is about as large a device as most RVers can easily carry. I paid ~$200 for it last year and someone in this thread posted an even cheaper price. I can't even imagine why any softener for RV use would be priced in the $500-700 range. Even the filters and other "accessories" thrown in with the softener amount to less than another ~$50.
I'm sorry if my being critical of your choice of softener offended you. I am not in any way trying to change your mind. I am only pointing this information out for others who have yet to purchase a softener so they understand the issues involved in choosing one that will meet their needs.
Joel
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Joel
Thank you for your very opinionated response. Good to know you are such an expert.
Leah:
What I said wasn't opinion it was entirely based on fact. The softening capacity of a device is based on a chemical exchange process in which sodium ions from salt are substituted for calcium and iron ions in the water. The "stuff" in the device is what's known as an "ion exchange resin" which facilitates this substitution of ions. When you put salt into a softener it is like fueling it up; this gives it new sodium ions to use to replace calcium ions.
Softeners are rated in terms of the number of "grains" of softener ions (sodium) they can hold because this number determines how many gallons of water with a particular "hardness" can be softened before more sodium ions have to be added. It's a pretty simple calculation and, if you are staying in one location, it's likely that you'll find that your own need to refill the salt (the proper term is regeneration) will occur on a regular basis of every couple of weeks depending on how hard the incoming water is and how much water your family uses on a daily basis. All the device is doing is "plucking" ions out of the incoming water and replacing them with sodium ions from the salt you have added. When the sodium runs out, it's time to add more. When you use a softener it's essential that you test your water on a regular basis; that's the only way you'll know when more salt has to be added; there's very little taste or "feeling" difference of the water itself.
When I examined the website of the company whose softener you recommended I could find no mention of the grain capacity of any of its products. They were adjectively described (large, extra large, etc) and a claim was made about the number of gallons of water each would treat, but, as you might understand by now, the number of gallons is not a constant and depends entirely on the hardness of the incoming water. Therefore, without a statement of the grain capacity of a device, it is impossible to know if the gallons of water treatment capacity that is claimed pertains to very soft incoming water or very hard.
What truly knocked my socks off about that website were the prices of the softeners, the largest of which was priced at ~$700. The 10,000 grain Watts softener I purchased is made by one of the country's leading "water companies" and is about as large a device as most RVers can easily carry. I paid ~$200 for it last year and someone in this thread posted an even cheaper price. I can't even imagine why any softener for RV use would be priced in the $500-700 range. Even the filters and other "accessories" thrown in with the softener amount to less than another ~$50.
I'm sorry if my being critical of your choice of softener offended you. I am not in any way trying to change your mind. I am only pointing this information out for others who have yet to purchase a softener so they understand the issues involved in choosing one that will meet their needs.
Joel
Joel,
I do not need test strips to know when my softer needs regenerating. I can definitely "feel" the difference in the water. How it rinses off the soap in the shower and how it "feels".
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Stan and Chuck,
A word to the wise when you regenerate your RV Pro 10K.
You will need to remove black plastic plug at top and tip softener over slightly to pour out approx. 2 cups of
water to make room for the replacement salt. "DO NOT" lay softener flat or tip too far. It is possible to pour out the regeneration resin
if you tip to far. If you see golden/brown beads coming out of the top of softener you are losing resin. A little bit will not affect performance
as there is about a cubic foot of resin in bottle.
Replacement resin is $70 including shipping. It needs to be replaced about every 2 or 3 years, not after 2 months as in my case.
Darrell
2004 Monterey
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Stan and Chuck,
A word to the wise when you regenerate your RV Pro 10K.
You will need to remove black plastic plug at top and tip softener over slightly to pour out approx. 2 cups of
water to make room for the replacement salt. "DO NOT" lay softener flat or tip too far. It is possible to pour out the regeneration resin
if you tip to far. If you see golden/brown beads coming out of the top of softener you are losing resin. A little bit will not affect performance
as there is about a cubic foot of resin in bottle.
Replacement resin is $70 including shipping. It needs to be replaced about every 2 or 3 years, not after 2 months as in my case.
Darrell
2004 Monterey
Thanks Darrell.
Flow-Pur says "Your resin only needs to be replaced if it is accidentally dumped out or damaged. Other than that, your original resin should last for many years."
I have a water softener at home and after 15+ years, I have never replaced the resin. I would think they use the same resin and process. Did something happen to your resin causing you to have to replace it?
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I can finally report on our new On-the-Go softener. I love it. It cleans up hard water taste and even the residual soda taste my wife was complaining about after dewinterizing 10 days ago. We are near Crater Lake and in high mineral well country. This morning's showers had plenty of lather, perhaps better than at home.
Rather than "permanently" hook the tank up, which would require some panel cutting for hose routing, I just store it in an adjoining opening in the water bay so it's handy. At the campsite it's easy to hook up to park water and leave outside semi-hidden alongside a slideout. Then upon leaving I switch the manifold valve over to tank fill, top off, and then disconnect hoses and lift the tank back into its bay where it stands upright. If I want, I can open its valves and drain water weight out first, but even full it's not that heavy.
It's a great little device.
Joel
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Update: We ordered the Watts Flow-Pur 10,000k unit. Since the coach is at our storage until Dec 1st when we leave for the big Florida adventure, I have the water softener at home. I think perhaps my previous water stick bit the dust because the resin froze.
I rigged up a spot inside the bay next to the water bay for the softener to travel and store upright.
Today, was the big test. Rockford has some of the hardest water known to mankind. I hooked it up to a garden hose for the intake, and just opened the outflow valve and let the water run down my driveway for 15 minutes. Prior to running the water, I tested the water coming out of my outside spigot, and it was max hard..using the provided test strips, the water tested at 25 gpg and 425 ppm, the highest on the scale. After running for 15 minutes, I tested again and the water tested a 0 gpg and 0 ppm...SOFT as a baby's behind!
Can't wait to hit the road!
Thank you to everyone who offered suggestions and help.
Stan
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Update:
We left home on Dec 1 but didn't use the new softener until we were out of freezing weather. Stared using it on Dec 4th..so its been 3 weeks. This softener is better than the one in our sticks & bricks. Nice soft water, and still no need to re-generate.
Very very satisfied with this product! Here is a pic of my set up.
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Thanks for the update Stan we also just got the Watts softner and plan to use it as we head south and while we stay at Happy Trails.
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Stan
Take a look at this site. I use their softners. I have a larger one at home for
use in cleaning and filling my water tank. The"mini" I take with me. Easy regen process and can either use salt pellets or potassium which I prefer.
http://www.stainlesswaterfilters.com/waterfilters-s/1814.htm
Leah
I also was looking at this one but agree with Joel that the absence of tech data is disturbing. I'm sure that a simple phone call would provide the information but aside from that, the horizontal operation may cause what is called channeling at low flow rates. This is an atypical design for resin based treatment devices and cause for concern. I'm not sure that back-washing will "stir" the resin very effectively.
What I do like is their approach to regeneration. Rather than open the unit and pour in salt they put the salt in the prefilter....this makes a lot of sense and should be adaptable to any portable unit. When I get mine (whatever it is) I'm certainly going to look at using this procedure with either table salt or rock salt. Easy to play with different combinations. The whole purpose is to make a saturated brine solution and however that is accomplished will be effective.
Regarding the On the Go models, the lack of a flow restriction for regen and backwash would be a concern. Regenerating resin effectively is very dependent on contact time not just time and these models depend on the operator to manually adjust the flow...not a great way to accomplish the objective. Effective yes but prone to operator error. Still this would be easy to retrofit with any number of devices.
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I agree with you on the solution contact time factor, Dick, but the operator error factor is an unlikely one in either my or your case.
Joel
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For those of you that are interested in more info on how softeners work and some of the fine points of generation and backwash I found a good explanation in the following document.
http://www.wqpmag.com/resin-regeneration-fundamentals
Now granted these little portable units are not the same as household or industrial installations, the principals are the same. For our purposes the description of how the flow rates are determined and why they are important is spot on. You do need to know the bed volume which is typically 1/3 to 1/2 ft3 in the portables.
Some of the portable softeners call for back-washing every 2-3 months but I suggest that you consider doing it every regen for all the reasons mentioned in the document. Like any flter media the beads will compact with use and failure to backwash will do a couple of things...none very good. First, the resin will compact causing pressure drop to increase. The higher the park water pressure the worse it will become. Second is that the regen effectiveness will be compromised because, due to being compacted, the effective resin surface area is not exposed to the brine solution.
One work of caution on the backwash flow rate. To high of a flow will not only expand the bed (good) but will agitate the resin and either blow it out, clog the stand pipe, or damage the media and create excessive fines (bad to real bad).
Dick
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Nice article; thanks for sharing. One thing that was clarified for me was how long to do the backflush. The Watts softener instructions tell you to do the backflush at ~1 gal/min, but nowhere does it say how long to do it. I'm currently in south Texas where the hardness is >25 grains/gal and softener performance is very important!