BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Jay Savelle on December 11, 2015, 12:21:39 AM
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Greetings All,
Trying to get familiar with our new to us ... 2006 Beaver Monterey.
While looking at the "Hydro Hot" I noticed the antifreeze was low.
I took a picture of the "Notice" which is printed on the antifreeze container.
What type of antifreeze is the Notice referring too? Exactly which brand should I use, and where can I purchase some?
Thanks so much for your help!!!
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Hello Jay, I ordered some from Grangers, but happened to stop in to Menards and they had it in stock! So I bought theirs and it was cheaper than the stuff from Grangers. I had found my burp bottle, was stained on the inside, to the point you couldn't tell how much was in it, so I drained it and changed it. I made our annual trip to AZ, and it seemed to work perfectly.
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PLEASE NOTICE
Use CAMCO Boiler Antifreeze -100 degree ONLY Mix 50/50 with Distilled water
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Where can I buy Camco Boiler Antifreeze?
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To answer your question, you can by propylene glycol at almost any Class A coach dealership; also at Camping World; and some auto supply stores.
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A lot of RV dealers that have an RV accessory store will have it, but many True Value hardware stores can get it from their warehouse, if they don't have it in stock already. Other hardware stores may have it if they are located where there is some local or transient RV market. Camping Worlds should have it, but I've run into some that didn't.
Some units use propylene glycol, but the original fluid in our '06 Monterey's HydroHot was boiler fluid, Jay, and likely yours is also. Be sure you get what Orman specified.
Joel
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One thing to consider: the water which you add to the antifreeze evaporates much faster than than the antifreeze. Over time, continuing to add a 50:50 solution will slowly increase the concentration of antifreeze. Some might think this could be a good thing except the efficiency of heat transfer to the domestic water in the Hydrohot is detrimentally affected. If you have never had a leak you may be able to just add distilled water or at least a weaker solution.I defer to anyone who may know more about this but this is what was explained to me by someone who should know.
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Please be advised ....There is a BIG difference in the propylene glycol
There is propylene glycol Antifreeze used for winterizing, Then there is propylene glycol -100 Degree Boiler fluid used in the Aqua-Hot systems
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Not to be contrary, or to claim to be an expert. But I think if you want to check my choice, I wish you would. I had read threads here and on irv2, so I thought I was informed enough to know what I should be looking for. So please, go to a Minards and check it out, I'd like to know if I got it wrong. I would never want to steer somebody wrong.
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Dale, That is my answer... from Aqua-Hot. No if, ands, or but. That is what Aqua-Hot recommends. Use anything else . you will pay dearly.
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This is what I used, Orman. Looks like the same stuff? http://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/hydronic-radiant-heat/system-components/cryo-tek-100-non-toxic-anti-freeze-70-virgin-propylene-glycol/p-1444449933130.htm?cm_vc=PDPZ1
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As I said, I use what Aqua-Hot says to use. Nothing else!
But you are free to use whatever you choose. 8)
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I agree with Orman here, and as such would refer Jay and others to this:
http://www.aquahot.com/FAQs.aspx
This also reinforces Bob's comments about water evaporation and not exceeding a 50% solution of propylene glycol. If your expansion tank is only moderately low, it likely would not hurt to add distilled water, from what the above linked site talks about. But at some point one would be advised to obtain and use a device for measuring the system's concentration, as many of us do for our cars' coolant. (Note that ball-style testers commonly used for ethylene automotive coolant won't properly read boiler propylene; reference types all over the map price-wise similar to this one at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Antifreeze-Battery-Propylene-Refractometer-Rha-100atc/dp/B00KHN3C8C/ref=pd_sim_sbs_328_20?ie=UTF8&dpID=41fE1V9SAZL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=1SZZHB79SW8S9H2P1DR6 ).
-Joel
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One thing to consider: the water which you add to the antifreeze evaporates much faster than than the antifreeze. Over time, continuing to add a 50:50 solution will slowly increase the concentration of antifreeze. Some might think this could be a good thing except the efficiency of heat transfer to the domestic water in the Hydrohot is detrimentally affected. If you have never had a leak you may be able to just add distilled water or at least a weaker solution.I defer to anyone who may know more about this but this is what was explained to me by someone who should know.
Aqua Hot does not say that ALL their models need polypropylene glycol "boiler" antifreeze. Our '04, built in '03 was delivered with and used ethylene glycol, like green and cheap Prestone. Some models were designed where leaks would drip outside the system. Other designs were such that leaks could get into the drinking water. If you have a HydroHot prior to about '05, you do not want to add "boiler" antifreeze because the system my have auto antifreeze in it. Mixing them may not be the best idea.
When John Carrillo did our last service and trouble shooting for the two year problem with inconsistent hot water, he used a sight glass to measure the mix. It was the first thing he did explaining further trouble shooting was pointless without the right ratio. He had to add a lot of distilled water to compensate for the 50/50 mix I had been topping off with for 12 years.
On edit: After I wrote this, I tried to find my old list of which models used which version of antifreeze. I failed. But, I did find a note at AquaHot that says the change occurred in 2002. Apparently, our '04 Monterery built in '03 used a HydroHot built in '02, or before. There is no question that it used the green ethylene automotive antifreeze that you can't drink.
Check the model number and look it up! Inventory systems at AquaHot, Monaco and Beaver could easily provide two or three year old units into coaches with '05, maybe '06 model years.
http://www.aquahot.com/FAQs.aspx (http://www.aquahot.com/FAQs.aspx)
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The manual for my AquaHot, model #AHE-100-02S, says on page 8, "Antifreeze Type Used..........Ethylene Glycol." On page 6 the manual says, "The basis for the Aqua-Hot heating system’s functionality is the antifreeze and water heating solution, which is comprised of water that is distilled, de-ionized, or soft, as well as antifreeze." A quick look through the manual did not reveal the antifreeze to water mixture ratio, but I assume it's supposed to be 50%-50%.
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This is from the AquaHot link I (and Bill) provided above, for those that didn't access the link or didn't read it:
" ... In 2002, Aqua-Hot changed the system design and in 2003 systems started using Propylene Glycol-based boiler antifreeze rated Generally Regarded AS Safe (GRAS).
All Aqua-Hot Systems manufactured after 2002 must use Propylene Glycol antifreeze, including Hydro-Hot™, Aqua-Hot®, Aqua-Hot 375D™, Aqua-Hot 375LP™, Aqua-Hot 400D™, Aqua-Hot 400LP™, Aqua-Hot 450D™, Aqua-Hot 525D™, Aqua-Hot 600D™, and Aqua-Hot 675D™. DO NOT use Ethylene Glycol or Propylene Glycol automotive antifreeze in these Aqua-Hot systems.
... Ethylene glycol antifreeze is toxic, does not have the GRAS label and is not suitable for an Aqua-Hot system manufactured after 2002. Ethylene glycol was used in pre-2002 Aqua-Hot systems with the exterior domestic hot water loop design. Ethylene glycol can be used in these pre-2002 systems, as well as GRAS-labeled propylene glycol boiler antifreeze."
David, your 100-02S model is apparently from the previous era but installed in a new era coach.
-Joel
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Interesting discussion. My 100-1s has regular anti-freeze in it and holds 11 gallons or so. At ~$50.00/gal for the boiler fluid I would be hesitant to spend close to $600.00 to change it out. Looking at Roger Berkes website the model chart indicates EG for older models and PG for newer ones.
Just guessing but the main reason for using PG may be the toxicity of EG in the case of a coolant leak through the heat exchanger into the fresh water. Perhaps the older models have a double tube configuration the prevents this type of contamination. I recall that the Hurricane used such and arrangement which allowed for the use of EG.
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Dick the red boiler fluid runs about 18/gallon at BCS in your own bottle they stock it in 55 gallon drums
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Yeah, as I recall the fluid was $15-$18/gal. the last I bought at True Value a few years back. It was a lot more than that at Guaranty RV when I first found it, which got me started shopping around.
Boiler fluid has a higher boiling point than regular propylene glycol so it can transfer heat better, and as per the website its viscosity is higher presumably increasing lubricity too.
Joel
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Dick
Your A/H holds approx. 16 gal fluid, That would be 8 gal. coolant, 8 gal. Distilled water, a 50/50 mix
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Thanks Omar.
Question for the expert, why is EG OK in the older units but not OK in the newer. I can speculate but that doesn't take the place of knowledge. What was actually changed in the construction.
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Dick
From what I was told, it was all health concern,
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Dick,
My understanding is if the copper tube that heated the hot water was wound around the outside of the boiler then ethylene glycol was considered safe given any boiler leak was still isolated by the external coil. In cases where a coil was run inside a boiler it was not. I'm not sure which of their units heats water inside vs outside of the boiler envelope. Orman probably has the answer.
Later Ed
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Jay:
If you get the Camco Boiler antifreeze in the Gallon container for your AH, use caution in diluting the gallon. This antifreeze is already diluted to give -100. This is too low for proper heat transfer. The antifreeze does need dilution, but not 50/50. If this gallon of antifreeze is mixed with one gallon of Distilled water, using a refractometer, the reading will give you a freeze and burst point that may not be sufficient for the climate you are in. There is a bit of misunderstanding on the mix ratio, because, once again the gallon container is already diluted.
What I discovered in the mixing with distilled water, is a gallon of boiler antifreeze to approximately a 1/2 gallon of distilled water will get you close an acceptable ratio. Aqua Hot recommends 35% to 50% propylene glycol to water. I don't have my numbers handy right now, so I apologize for not providing that. I have received so much misinformation in mixing that I ran my own experiment in mixing and used a refractometer to check my freeze point. I then called AH to confirm this dilution process and finally got the validation on mixing. This only pertains to the gallon boiler antifreeze. There is a smaller container that is Concentrate, this is a different mix ratio than what I am explaining.
Bottom line, you need to use a refractometer to know for sure where your freeze point is. Refractometers are not expensive and easy to use. The Ball type testers are not for use with this type of antifreeze.
Also AquaHot.com provides good information.
Hope this helps, good luck.
Larry D.
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Larry,
The freeze point numbers for a 50/50 mix and your target would be informative. Also, it would seem to follow that the concentrate would have the same characteristics e.g. don't go with the recommended 2/1 mix w/o checking freeze point protection.
The FAQ sheet from AH also is informative re this point. http://www.aquahot.com/FAQs.aspx
Steve
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Steve, thanks for the link.
It confirms that our older units use EG and we can use the Hydrometer for measuring the freeze protection.
It also confirmed that the construction changes after 2002 required going to PG.
One more thing off my "worry" list.
Dick
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Steve:
I was checking out my boiler antifreeze with my refractometer, which will give you a reading for ethylene glycol or propylene glycol and a 49% (which is displayed on the refractometer) results in a freeze point of a -20 degrees. Unfortunately mine was only at a 34% glycol to water providing me with a +5, so I will be adjusting this. Don't really want to be anywhere I will need -20 protection, but you never know. Also the 50% ratio provides for the ideal hear transfer and keeps the antifreeze from causing sticky valves and problems with pumps.
Jay:
A refractometer that will measure Battery/ Ethylene and propylene will give you the mix ratio and freeze point through the display. That way you know exactly what mix ratio you have. This may not be what you were asking about, but I thought I would put it out there.
Larry D