BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Jim Chambers on August 07, 2010, 04:49:26 PM
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2001 Patriot, Norcold refer, connected to 50 amps in my garage, monitor shows 120 volts on both legs. I usually leave refer on when the coach is idle. After our last trip it remained cold for a few days, then lost AC power (I keep it set to AC, not Auto when in the garage). I tripped and reset the kitchen GFI a few days ago and thought that solved the problem. It did not. I have checked the AC plug behind the refer and it is tight. For some reason the refer is not getting AC power.
I hope I can solve the problem myself with your suggestions. Unlikely I can get the coach in for service next week before our scheduled Tahoe rally. With all the coaches in town for the FMCA Convention, I think Beaver Coach Sales will be slammed.
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Jim-
I assume you checked the refer's breaker in the breaker box? Some coaches today have breakers with built-in GFCI's that can trip seperately from the breaker itself and need resetting. An AC probe-lamp or meter in the refer's plug outlet would be my next move, to see if it's really live or not. At least you'd know for sure whether to look at the refer or your coach electrical system for the problem.
If you can't find the problem yourself, give Loren a call Monday anyway; BCS often makes room for "emergency" fixes where the customer has to be somewhere soon, and this problem probably won't take much of their service tech's time to diagnose.
-Joel
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Not sure of your coaches wiring configuration but the GFI that feeds the frig may be in the storage bay. It would be wise to check all outlets with a meter/light and see what outlets are working and which are not. From that outlet mapping information of what is working and what is not and reseting all the GFIs that you can find should either fix the problem or provide adequate information for the crew at Bend to work from.
Regards Ed
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Norcold has an 8 Amp AC glass cartridge fuse on the power board on the back of the refrigerator. Refer to the operators guide for instructions on safely changing the fuse or let a Norcold Service Center handle the job for you. A blown fuse here would give you the “NO AC” you are getting. Good luck on getting it to work the way it should.
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I had the same symptoms several times for the first couple of years with our Monterey. The Norcold may be operating normally. If set on "Auto", it will sense certain electronic failures and switch to propane as a backup.
As Ken said above, it was the fuse under the black cover inside the panel on the outside of the rig that caused my problem. Each time it failed, the fuse looked fine. The wire inside the fuse was intact. But, if tested for continuity, it was dead. I probably changed that fuse a half dozen times. Finally, I figured out that the fuse was not blowing, it was getting hot and the solder in the metal fuse ends was melting! I squeezed the fuse holder clips a little tighter to make a more reliable connection. The fuse in there now is about 3 years old.
The cover is a little tricky to remove because the screws are hard to reach. You have to remove a couple of things to get to the screws.
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Thank you for the suggestions. I pulled the plug and used a meter to find 120V present. Considered removing board cover to check fuse but decided to try it again. Fridge has run on AC for 24 hours to this point. The AC cord seemed a bit loose at the power board. Maybe I tweaked something. Time will tell. Thanks again.
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Jim,
The outlet that supplies the AC is actually in an environment that sees humidity, condensation, and temperature variation. You may have improved the brass contact surfaces by removing and replugging in the AC plug. It may be that that coach outlet in the frig vent area may benefit from being changed and replaced with a high quality brand outlet. The other possibility is that you reset the board logic by droping the AC altogether. If that is the source of your problem it will probably repeat at some point and you can test that by unplugging waiting 30 seconds and plugging in again. If that repeatedly solves your problem then a new control board may be your next step. Hope this helps.
later Ed
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Ed's certainly right about the brass contacts, Jim. Simply unplugging and replugging from the outlet regularly can keep micro-corrosion at bay; but even though Bend is a high desert, relatively dry environment, I'd consider his suggestion of a new high quality outlet. He is also right about your having probably reset the board. But you mentioned the cord at the board seemed loose, and that you may have "tweaked something". Bear in mind if that's the problem point, that just driving down the road could easily "untweak" things. Another reason to unplug the refer, remove the board and check or have checked its connections.
-Joel
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I am away until Wednesday. Assuming it is working when I get home, I will then test it on the Rally to Tahoe beginning Sunday.
Maybe the "reset" trick will get me through the trip. Or I can use propane for the duration.
Please name a brand or two of high quality outlets. I have replaced/installed many over the years but usually buy whatever is on the shelf at Home Depot.
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Jim,
Buy a 20Amp outlet, it has beefier contacts. They may have some outside rated outlets with better metallurgy at Home Depot or Lowes. I know they make outside rated GFI outlets. Eagle or Lutron are some of the mainstays. I would buy the most expensive 20A outlet available of a major brand. That strategy may not get you the best candidate for the job but it should not hurt your chances of getting a higher quality metal contact set in the outlet. The expense will still be trivial.
Later Ed
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I assume you have a Norcold 1200 LRIM fridge. If so, the service manual has an excellent troubleshooting section. You can download it from the Files section of the Diesel-RV forum: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Diesel-RV/
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Thank you David. Great resource.
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This problem has surfaced again. I was unable to get at the service manual, as the site is no longer up. The last post on this thread was over a year ago, so no big surprise there. Does anyone have the service manual? My fridge has been off for a couple of months, while we were not using the Beaver. Now we are going to use it, leaving on Monday for a 4 day jaunt to California, so brought it home to Coquitlam yesterday and started the fridge, with the "No AC" message.
There is AC to the circuit board. The 3 amp fuse in the board looks good. Some of the connectors to the board were very loose, but tightening them hasn't helped. The fridge is working fine on Propane.
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There is a fuse under the black cover, 8 amps AFE. It was blown. The fridge is working fine now.
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Spoke too soon. I checked about an hour after it started working, and it was back on propane, flashing "HI dc". So I put a voltmeter across the dc into the board, 13.58v. I don't think that is high, but the fridge doesn't like it? a couple of hours later, I checked it again, to find it is still on propane, with no codes showing. I forced it onto AC, and now it beeps and flashed "NO". That isn't one of the codes for which the operating manual has an explanation.
Anyone?
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Keith,
It sounds like you may have a bad 120V heating element.
Gerald
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If it is flashing "No" it is probably a female version of the circuit board in the refrigerator. You need to then order the male version :-)
I think Gerald has the most likely candidate for the fail. At room temperature the heating elements are typically about 48ohms, 38 to 53ohms is spec. The DC hi fault code is 15.4 volts and it seems unlikely that you ever reached that level, not sure what caused that error but ignore it unless it repeats. You also have a DC heating element that should read .81 to .91 ohms. I would check both elements. If the elements are O.K. and the AC and DC supply are at the proper voltage then you should try the power board reset procedure in this manual if it applies to your frig.
http://www.muniac.com/PDF/ncoldnnewnseries.pdf
If the voltages and heating elements are O.K., and the board reset does not solve your problem then you will probably need a new main board. If there is an external relay feeding the AC heating element from the circuit board you could also have bad contacts in that relay. Hope this helps.
Later Ed
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Don't mean to be rude, but a 10 year old norcold...........make plans for a residential!
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Ed:
You were absolutely right.
The fuse that I had replaced had blown again. It was a female fuse, purchased at the only local RV supplier, on their (female parts person) advice that "we don't have one of those, but this one should work". At the sixth store that I tried (The Source) I was able to get the correct fuse. 12 hours in, it is still working, as only a male fuse would.
I also note that the Service manual you so kindly attached doesn't mention the sex/contrariness of the fuse, so would not have provided the correct clue.
So Thanks again Ed, you are a great resource.
Keith
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Double check the fuse again. But, concentrate on the fuse holder itself. Look for dirt, looseness and, especially corrosion.
It was over a year ago that I posted (above) my frustrations with the Norcold fuse. During the first years of ownership I consumed a couple boxes of fuses.
When I wrote that post, the current fuse was three years old and I thought the problem was solved. I thought that crimping the fuse holder to hold the fuse tighter was a permanent fix. About a month later, the fridge quit. Out of habit and experience, I went straight to that fuse. The circuit board had destroyed itself. There was a black, charred circle around the that fuse.
My Norcold had experienced and electrical fire. I am very happy that it contained itself to the circuit board. It could have spread. I don't know how close I came to a real motorhome fire. There are a few recalls on the fridge I have. One is to install a thermistor placed on the exhaust vent that will shut down the fridge if the stack gets hot.
At the time I made a brief attempt to talk to Norcold. I couldn't connect to anyone that was interested. I focused on fixing the fridge before the beer got warm and the milk spoiled.
I needed a new circuit board. Getting one from Norcold got frustrating and the price was high. Then I remembered fixing a fridge in an old Terry trailer we had. The solution was an aftermarket circuit board favored by some (or many) service techs. A little googling and I was able to remember the brand "Dinosaur". http://www.dinosaurelectronics.com/Nor_boards.htm Dinosaur quickly located a nearby dealer/repair service that quickly Fedexed the board to me at half the cost of a Norcold.
The new board looked like the burnt one -- except everything was more "robust". The troublesome fuse holder was especially more rugged and even had it's own little cover. The board was easy to install in about a half hour.
I am convinced the Norcold fuse holder is a defective design issue. It is too weak, too small, too loose and might have a "dissimilar metal" corrosion issue. The corrosion or looseness caused mine to get hot enough that the solder inside the fuse would melt. The fuses did not blow from an electrical fault. The wires in the multiple fuses that I replaced were visibly intact and undamaged.
I thought I fixed the Norcold fuse holder by crimping it to hold the fuse more securely. It still got hot enough that the board burned around the holder. I am worried that this flaw may have lead to motorhome fires. I had one, but it was small. There is no reason it couldn't have grown bigger.
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Bill:
Thanks for the warning! Scary stuff! How expensive was the Dino? If not too high, it might be worth doing just for peace of mind.
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Bill brings up a very good point. These little spring clip Buss fuse holders that are on circuit boards can oxidize in a damp environment or fatigue and cause a loose contact. It may be worth tightening the clip by squeezing it togather a little bit and lightly spraying each end of the fuse with a little Corrosion X. Put it back in the clips and rotate it a bit to clear any oxidation and also coat the clip with the Corrosion X.
Kieth, you found the bad fuse so you get the credit for that one. If a fuse is not the right type (Slo Blow which typically has a filament winding built inside or Fast Blow which has a straight filament) or if it is not the proper rated amps then keep searching until you find one. You can typically get away with a fast blow or slow blow in place of each other temporarily and then order the right one. If you are blowing fuses be sure and check the ohms of the heating element. That draws the most current and if the ohms are on the low side I would see if a new one was near nominal spec and if so replace it.
Later Ed
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Bill:
Thanks for the warning! Scary stuff! How expensive was the Dino? If not too high, it might be worth doing just for peace of mind.
Memory suggests I paid about $300 that included fast shipping.
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Well, two weeks have gone by since I thought the fridge was fixed. In that time, we were on the road for the first 4 days, and when plugged in at one overnight spot, and the first day after arriving at our rental site, it worked fine. After that, it has failed to cool while on AC for most of the time. It works fine on Propane, so that is where I have been leaving it.
Gerald suggested a bad AC heating element. I have reviewed the service manual, but don't see how I can determine whether the AC heating element is good or bad.
I also tried to display the codes, but when I press "temp" and "Mode" together, I don't get any code display. I am just about ready to pay a tech to come out, but I don't know if there are any techs that know any more than I now do, so I am afraid the approach is likely to be to throw money and parts at it until something works. I really want to go in with better knowledge.
Any ideas?
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Kieth,
Several posts up I provided the ohms for a good AC element. You should be able to pull the plugs/connectors from the board and measure the heating element with an ohmmeter. 48ohm nominal 38 to 53 ohm window for a good one. If I measured under 40 I would probably change it due to the blowing of the fuse. If you measure a heating element and it is under an ohm in value that is the DC heating element. The AC one is the one you are after. If the element is good I would start looking into changing the board given there are not a lot of other components involved here.
Later Ed
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Ed;
Thanks again. I checked the heating units, there are two of them on this unit. One measured 60 Ohms, the other, 14 Ohms. So one bad one is enough to knock out the AC cooling. I called a local RV Tech, he came out with a new heater, but couldn't get the old ones out, as they are rusted into the pipes that attach them to the side of the cooling unit. His advice, trash it and put in a new cooling unit. I had to agree, that the chances of getting the heaters off without destroying the cooling unit look to be nil, so I now have a new unit on order from David Force, www.RVCoolingunit.com. My fridge still works just fine on Propane, so this shouldn't have much effect on our use of the Beaver.
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Kieth,
The Amish units are supposed to be good units, much thicker.They take pride in their work and Norcold could learn a thing or two from them. Given all the fires and evidence of rust, this unit was probably overdue for change. Most people wait until they fail and put the coach at risk. Hopefully with the cooling unit and the new heater you will have success. You still may have a board issue but hopefully not. Keep us posted.
Later Ed
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Ed:
Thanks. I looked at the possibility of swapping out the cooling unit myself, but since it is sooo important to Janet to have a continuously working fridge, I will pass that opportunity and get the "Mobile RV Tech" to do it. He promises in and out in 4 hours. I'll let you know how it looks when I see it. Website pix never tell the whole story.
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Just to conclude this thread: On Nov 11, the RV Tech installed our new "Amish" cooling unit in our Norcold 1200. It took him and his helper a little under 4 hrs, and was done, cleaned up and operational. SInce then, it has run flawlessly until we shut it down when we parked the Beaver in storage for the next couple of months. The setting required to get proper fridge temp is now the lowest, while on the old ulit (before its failure) it required a higher setting.
While it was out, I inspected the bits that would remain, which weren't many. The propane burner is one, and it looked new. the icemaker controls and piping had been a problem early on, so I had already replaced the bits that needed it. Everything else looks like new.
The new cooling unit is powder coated white, so looks excellent. The old unit was rusted and ready to fail. The heating elements were also rusted, and couldn't be separated from the cooling unit, hence the total replacement. It was time.
I didn't hang around to see what was involved in the swap, but whenever I did look in on progress, it seemed to be just a staitforward re/re, without any tricky parts.
the old unit was 13 yrs old. I hope to get at least that out of the new one. Since it looks a lot more robust than the original, should be the last time we have to visit this issue.