BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Dick Simonis on March 11, 2016, 01:28:58 AM
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I just want to extend a THANK YOU to those that uncovered and disclosed the issues with the hydraulic hose used on our older MH's primary fuel filter.
Today I had Empire Cat in Tucson do routine maintenance and also change the hose form the primary filter to the fuel pump. The report was that it was badly compromised with much deterioration on the inside...outside looked just fine. There was significant blockage to flow on the inside and evidence that inner lining material was passing into the fuel lift pump.
To those that have not replaced this hose....I suggest you do not delay.
Again, thanks for the warning.
Dick
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Dick thanks for taking your time on reporting back on this hydraulic hose used for fuel
line problem. I have changed 10 of the problem hoses and found with video cam some
had rubber inside showing the steel braids along one side on bend of hydraulic hose. Yes
Some did not look to bad but were leaking at hydraulic crimp fitting to out side. One I cannot
say enough about with just a little flaking at suction inlet of fuel transfer pump will start
failure in a very big way as several component up stream are affected. I will be doing
Diagonostic Seminars at Rayne, La and Tallahassee, Fl. and have all information in detail
along with some of the hydraulic hoses that failed to the Beaver group. I have made several
post on forum to bring this problem to everyone's attention along with a few pictures Fred Brooks
taken and posted for me. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Machanic
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Dave-
Remind us which year range and model coaches may have this issue... ? Is it '96 to '03 and any CAT engine?
I don't think my '06 is involved, but there are new members here, owners of used coaches, that may not have read the previous threads.
Thanks,
Joel
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Joel,
My 06 PT has all plastic fuel lines, tank to water/fuel separator, to lift pump on front of C-13. From the pump to the secondary filter it is steel flared tubing hard line.
Just take a look at you fuel line out of the tank to the first filter and son on, mine happens to be yellow 5/8" plastic tube.
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Joel, the engines in question start 1996 to 04 than I appears they changed to plastic
fuel line. Ran into problem early 2115 with low power and leaking or wet hydraulic
crimp fittings. This will pertain to all our Cat engines that builder had installed hydraulic
hose. One thing it appears that hydraulic hose used as fuel line Gates Brand. Parker hydraulic
fuel line which changed out was like new on a 3126 A model Cat. My main concern other
Than the hydraulic hose problem is air into the suction side of fuel from front fuel tank
To fuel transfer pump. Both problems do not lead us down a very good path as far as outlay
Of money. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Gentleman, started another post on hydraulic fuel line failure to bring members who did
see earlier post in 2115 and again in January of this year. Doing this left Dick posting on
Empire Cat service on his engine and confirm findings that been pass along from earlier
Post starting in 2115. Dick second post on fuel level at his Racor water/fuel filter with engine
running. What all this is telling everyone that has just tuned in( fuel starvation and low
fuel pressure) that is leading to bigger failure as I have been posting. The root cause starting
at hydraulic hose failure had started and will cause additional failure up stream from this
hydraulic hose the aftermath up stream we to prevent if all possible. Again Dick thank you
for feed back in bring this problem to membership. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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The folks at Fabick CAT in Columbia MO replaced our old fuel hose today while, at the same time, getting rid of all that Racor junk! We now have a CAT primary filter to go with our existing CAT secondary filter. Finally, no more plastic tubes and hard to find filters! ;D And no more leakage. Thanks, Dave Atherton for bringing this to our attention. BTW, the CAT parts needed to make this switch cost ~$110.
Anyone who wants a Racor S3230P filter still in plastic shrinkwrap I'll be glad to send it to you for $20. It cost me $33 last month before I decided to get rid of the Racor once and for all.
This is what the new filter setup looks like; the CAT guys fashioned a simple bracket to hold the filter base:
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So, is this something I should have had fixed when I had my hydraulic lines fixed last month? How do I know if the previous owner(s) have changed it out or not? (2000 Patriot Thunder)
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So, is this something I should have had fixed when I had my hydraulic lines fixed last month? How do I know if the previous owner(s) have changed it out or not? (2000 Patriot Thunder)
Very unlikely IMO that anyone would have changed this out prior to Dave having brought it to people's attention.
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Dave, so for clarity the idea is to replace any hose that runs fuel?
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Keith, yes replacement hose that is for diesel fuel. The hose in question that is problem,
is located on the discharge side of the fuel/water primary filter to the fuel transfer pump
suction side. The name on hose ( Gates Global ) and about 4 feet long and replacement
will correct problem. Dave Atherton Retired Cat mechanic
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Dave, so for clarity the idea is to replace any hose that runs fuel?
Ideally, one might want to replace all the old fuel line, but the important one, as Dave has explained it, is the one between the primary filter and the fuel pump because any debris from that hose would go directly into the pump. Debris from hoses ahead of the filter would be caught by the filter.
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All,
I had Peterson CAT in Portland replace my line between the primary fuel filter and lift pump. Wow, what an extravagant repair that was. Total cost was 760.00 including 6 HOURS and about $160.00 in parts. I think I should have looked up the parts Dave mentioned. I think he pointed out the parts needed for the new hose.
When they called me, a day after I dropped it off, they told me that they took a couple of mis-directions in acquiring proper plastic fuel line (from freightliner I think he said) and that tomorrow (which was a Friday - I dropped it off on Wednesday before noon) they would put the new fuel line on. I asked about the bill (as I'd not received an estimate) and he said he though $500 to $600. I was surprised, thinking maybe $400.
They called me Friday afternoon and said "all done". I went in and the service manager told me (as he handed me the bill) that it actually "cost more than what I am charging you but I couldn't justify that expense". So I look at the bill and its not $500 or even $600, rather its $756.00. He explained to me that it was quite an intricate job (I bet!!!) because the new plastic line was stiff unlike the old hydraulic line. He said they had to use a "special elbow".
As I approached the coach I really expected to see 6 hours worth of very intricate work, but when I flipped up the rear engine access, I quickly found the new shiny fitting starting right at me (I didn't even know where the life pump was and now I do). So, I looked at the new line and essentially that line starts at the lift pump with a straight on connector, heads to the left and does a single 1/2 spiral in mid air back towards the filter bay. At the filter bay it appears that they may have chinked away some of the bay to route the line to the primary pump (perhaps to fit the new connector through) and YES that connector appears to be a right angle connector. Oh, and then the invoice says they steam cleaned the engine and filter bay (not very well done in the filter bay as I mopped up diesel/water mixture throughout.
So, in 6 hours (more according to the service manger - I just didn't have to pay for it) over a 48 hour period, they removed the old line (2 connectors right?), had to figure out how to keep the fuel contained (which I believe is the hardest part but its probably easy if you're a pro), THEN they had to use their professionalism to have a new line constructed that would work. This evidently is where these pros fell down miserably for HOURS.
At this time there is no evidence that I replaced a failing line as indicated in this thread but I have yet to cut into it to inspect it. They didn't find any evidence on their part (but thank goodness I didn't ask them for a forensic report on it).
For other owners of this era SMC Coach, I urge you to submit a parts list to Caterpillar or other shop as I should have done. I think Dave gave that parts list out but I am not sure - I haven't gone back to review this thread. I'll look and see and if not (my memory sometimes slips me up) I will provide the parts list they showed on my billing.
Bottom line there is absolutely NO REASON to spend 6 hours changing out a single 4-5 ft hose as a professional in my opinion. That is not professionalism which is what I thought I was paying for. It was more like trial and error. Is this the state of professionalism in the world today?
Ok, I feel better now. :)
Mike
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Mike:
I think you did get "hosed" ;D a bit on that repair and I can say this because Fabick CAT in Columbia MO just replaced my fuel line and more for significantly less money. I had the Racor primary filter removed and replaced by a CAT filter along with replacement of the hose and the entire bill was $504.97 including the new filter assembly. As Dave Atherton has previously noted I got charged for ~$17 of new hose plus the labor to install it.
Joel
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Does this issue only apply to those with a Cat engine configuration? We own an 03 with a Cummins ISL and would like to correct this if it is even an issue.
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yes , you got HOSED! I was concerned about my hose.I parked at NAPA. Removed hose with 8" crescent . Had new hose made for $45.Replaced .Add in a couple zip ties. Total time 20 minutes. Started up,check for leaks and down the road we go.
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INCREDIBLE! Wow, well, I didn't even know where the lift pump was, and naively thought "changing a hose" at a reputable engine shop would be reasonable especially after Pape-Kenworth where I usually have my work done begged off on the project.
What material did you construct your hose with? Caterpillar's first attempt was with normal hydraulic hose but they then looked at my order which specified plastic fuel hose and then ran into issues with the elasticity being a problem, then the 90 degree fitting, and bingo, TIME and MATERIALS. :)
Mike
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Mike:
I think you did get "hosed" ;D a bit on that repair and I can say this because Fabick CAT in Columbia MO just replaced my fuel line and more for significantly less money. I had the Racor primary filter removed and replaced by a CAT filter along with replacement of the hose and the entire bill was $504.97 including the new filter assembly. As Dave Atherton has previously noted I got charged for ~$17 of new hose plus the labor to install it.
Joel
It appears that the entire issue was because of the elasticity of the plastic tubing as it met with the RACOR setup, so simply removing that setup would have made the job probably easier I suppose. Now with this forum feedback Margaret is saying I should call the shop and describe my unhappiness. But, then again, chances are this shop had never done this before (and probably thought it wasn't even necessary but were certainly eager to humor me), and simply kept working on it by trial and error. I certainly paid for more than 2 fittings so its pretty clear with a materials charge of over $150 that trial and error ruled the day!
Mike
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I can't find Dave's other posting which I believe included a parts list. Am I wrong? Can anyone find that thread and post a link to it? The search feature we have doesn't seem to work very well.
Mike
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I can't find Dave's other posting which I believe included a parts list. Am I wrong? Can anyone find that thread and post a link to it? The search feature we have doesn't seem to work very well.
Mike
[/Gentleman, have a parts list for hydraulic hose disintegration repair. Need: 44 inch long Cat
9X-2374 fuel hose, cost .36 inch $ 15.84, crimp hose fittings -8 JIC female swivel $ 8.69
Part number 92752 need: 2 , cost $ 17.38, Adapter part number 96515 steel fitting 37. C5315
$ 3.32. Note: adapter is used on the fuel transfer pump on C-12, C-13, C-15 engine only
suction inlet. C-9, C-7, 3126 E, B, A model do not need this adapter.
Fuel/water filter ( if you choose To go with Cat Parts ) 137-4367 filter base, 129-0375 plastic
Bowel, 133-5673 filter element, 120-6726 elbow fittings need: 2 total cost $ 153.52
All parts were bought at Empire Cat and any Cat Dealer should have the part numbers in there
system. Today 2 motorhomes were repaired with fuel hydraulic hose problem with Cat parts.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanicquote]
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Jim, you are one of the lucky people ( cummins planned out the fuel system which has
been very trouble free. ) today it is very sad to hear reports from work provided from
a Cat service shop. When I made post with new cost was direct off invoice from a
very large Cat Dealer along with cat part numbers and labor. I had several hoses made
up at 3 different Cat Dealers and cost ran to build hose $ 35.00 to $ 45.00. Install time
Less than 20 minutes. Today we are in a different world and cannot account for Cat Dealer
actions and I know how everyone feels getting hosed. Still we need to remember we have
a Caterpillar engine in our motorhome and at some point we will need caterpillar parts and
service. ( a cummins part will not mate up to a cat engine ) Dave Atherton Retired Cat mechanic
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Regarding the replacement of the hose; When I had mine done the Cat dealer used another hydraulic hose with my blessing. I don't feel that a hydralic hose is intrinsically a problem with diesel fuel especially hose that is a decade newer than originally used. If I'm wrong...well I'll be facing the same issue in another 10 years or so.
FYI, the dealer charged me 2 hours of labor but that also included checking for air leaks on the suction side of the primary filter.
Dick
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Gentleman, there is a fuel hose replacement that meets and exceeds Chemical Resistance
including Bio Diesel B-20. Information for correct hose ( 451TC/ST ) , Cost per hose made
at Parker Hannifin Hydraulic Dealer With tax $ 44.00. How this came about, Rayne LA. Rally
in April had several people request hose replacement after inspection of there motorhomes.
At local Cat Dealer 20 miles away employees did not ever hear of special fuel line that would
work with Bio Diesel and could not help us. Note. I have paper work from 3 Cat dealer that
had made up our fuel hoses. 2 days later and lot of homework we found a Parker Hannifin
Hydraulic hose shop and had 5 fuel hoses made for $ 44.00 ea. Parker Hannifin is one of the
leading fluid power company's in North America. Leaving thought Roy Mueller changed out his hydraulic fuel hose on 1996 Beaver that was Parker brand and kind enough to cut open the
Hose for cross section inspection and the hydraulic look just like new. I carry this hose for
diesel seminar classes I put on along with Gates Global hoses that failed for show and tell to
members. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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I suppose where I went wrong was asking for a plastic hose then. As this evidently created all the problems with finding a fitting that would allow the connection with the more rigid plastic versus the hydraulic. I agree with Dick, in that simply replacing it with another hydraulic hose would have been ok for years to come. Now I just hope that because mine is plastic that I won't have any problems BECAUSE of that.
Not sure how I became so glued on having it made of plastic.
Mike
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Not sure how I became so glued on having it made of plastic.
I just told Fabick CAT that I wanted to replace the line and I let them decide what the replacement should be. I figured they knew what the proper hose should be better than I did.
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I'd like to ask Dave Atherton if there is any reason why my new dual CAT filters (primary and secondary) would sound quieter than the rather than the CAT/Racor setup I previously had? Since I don't have "absolute" sound level measurements I don't have any real way to compare them, but when I sit in the driver's seat it just seems quieter.
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Not sure how I became so glued on having it made of plastic.
I just told Fabick CAT that I wanted to replace the line and I let them decide what the replacement should be. I figured they knew what the proper hose should be better than I did.
Joel, how much did it cost you? Thanks
Jerry
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Joel Weiss, sorry got you mixed up the other Joel. Think I can answer your question about
less noise with Cat water/fuel filter versus the Racor you just removed. If you were pulling
air around the Racor setup and same air is causing cavitation into the fuel rail with engine
running your injector is also not getting a full amount of diesel fuel with the air mixed within
fuel. What is happening also with low power your fuel timing is retarded with air/fuel mix
now with air removed you do not air fuel mix and not correct firing and injector timing. A
Little off on injector timing engine sounds very different. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Thanks Dave. That's sort of what I expected, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't imaging it.
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Mike, reguarding the connection of plastic hose. The use of Air line brass fittings like myself
and Jim Nichols changed all of his fuel line fittings and removed all the MFG. push on o-ring
type of fittings with plastics retainer clips made a air type fuel line connection. Yes plastic
line is the best way to go and MFG. figured that out after 2004. Other motorhome builders
have had the use of plastic fuel lines starting back in 1998 mainly Cummins engines.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Mike
[/Gentleman, have a parts list for hydraulic hose disintegration repair. Need: 44 inch long Cat
9X-2374 fuel hose, cost .36 inch $ 15.84, crimp hose fittings -8 JIC female swivel $ 8.69
Part number 92752 need: 2 , cost $ 17.38, Adapter part number 96515 steel fitting 37. C5315
$ 3.32. Note: adapter is used on the fuel transfer pump on C-12, C-13, C-15 engine only
suction inlet. C-9, C-7, 3126 E, B, A model do not need this adapter.
Fuel/water filter ( if you choose To go with Cat Parts ) 137-4367 filter base, 129-0375 plastic
Bowel, 133-5673 filter element, 120-6726 elbow fittings need: 2 total cost $ 153.52
All parts were bought at Empire Cat and any Cat Dealer should have the part numbers in there
system. Today 2 motorhomes were repaired with fuel hydraulic hose problem with Cat parts.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanicquote]
[/quote]
Dave
Is the fuel line mentioned above a plastic line or what?
The two parts lists above seem to be for two seperate repairs. If I don't replace the Racor now will that mean replacing the hose again when replacing the Racor?
Thanks!
Keith
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Thanks Keith, Mike whatever you do is replace the hose from Recor water/fuel filter discharge
end to the suction inlet on engine fuel transfer pump. Before you replace hydraulic hose, wipe
off outside rubber of hose in question and what you should find in white letters Gates Global.
If you find the rubber outside with white letters that read Parker this brand Parker does not
need to be replaced. It is your call on the replacement of the Recor water/fuel filter. Remember
Cat C-12 engine will need 78 psi, Fuel pressure at high idle. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Hey Thanks for the info Dave
About that seperator from CAT. Does that purge like the Racor does air / water and does it need a new switch wired in?
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Dave,
Does the Cat 137-4367 filter base have a hand pump primer on it? If not are you concerned about not having a priming pump?
I put a Racor prefilter base with a thumb press type primer pump on my last motorhome and that unit was fine. If you are not concerned what is the procedure for priming? If you are concerned is there a Cat version with a manual pump?
Thanks Ed
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I put a Racor prefilter base with a thumb press type primer pump on my last motorhome and that unit was fine. If you are not concerned what is the procedure for priming? If you are concerned is there a Cat version with a manual pump?
The CAT 280-2698 filter base that was just installed on my MH to replace the Racor does not have a priming pump. There is one, I believe that will mount on my existing secondary filter base. I think the technician who did my conversion realized late in the day that he probably should have had a primer installed. I'll have one added the next time I go in for service.
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Ed, answer to question the water/fuel filter base does not have place for hand priming
pump. Location of a hand priming pump is located on the secondary fuel filter base and
is not in a easy area to get at. One thing that makes easy way to prime fuel rail, using
The hex shaped bleed plug on secondary fuel filter base. Turn 3 full turns out and key on turn
engine over 2/3 seconds engine will start, shut off tighten bleed hex plug your done. On
your C-12 you should have a hand primer pump on secondary filter base or a cover plate
Where you can install hand pump if you choose. Part number for Hand primer pump 116-5411.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat mechanic
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I had the same question Keith had about whether or not the fitting I now have which is for the existing Racor primiary fuel filter with clear glass unit, and which goes to the lift pump, is the SAME FITTING as on the CAT Primary Fuel Filter that Joel is talking about?
Put another way, would I have to get another $760 fuel line installed if I was to be so silly as to go to CAT in Portland, Oregon, and have them swap out my Racor for a CAT Primary fuel filter?
Mike
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Keith, if your thinking about going with a cat water/fuel filter, no there is not a electric motor
or hand pump. With Cat water/fuel installed in place of Recor setup there is nothing to do
after install. Drain off a little water in plastic bowel few times. Thinking on going with the Cat
water/fuel it is a air tight and all it needs( required) pull diesel fuel from fuel tank in front
through the water/fuel filter than to the fuel transfer pump. Keep things simple and trouble free.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Mike, the cost will run less than $ 150.00 complete with fittings, filter base, and filter.
Just make sure when your at cat get the two fittings and two plugs for the filter. Make
sure the fittings that connect to your present fuel system are male -8 JIC with stright thread
with locking hex nut with o-ring ( need 2 ) and also 2 plugs with o-ring. Once installed
will be a trouble free. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Dave,
Thanks for the info. I do not have a hand pump and when I go the route of replacement at some point in the future how would you feel about this Racor unit with an integrated palm pump. I had installed one of these on my last motorhome and it worked well. The 460R version is rated at 60 gallons an hour and up to 30psi and is under $200.
I know I would get a little nervous about starting my engine with air in the system. This unit would bleed both the Racor prefilter unit and the Cat final filter through the bleed plug on the cat filter head before I start the engine as I can do now with the Raycor electric pump. There is also a 90GPH version 490R but it is about an inch longer. Does Cat have a part like this or is this one a good choice?
http://discountracor.com/shop/diesel-spin-on-assemblies/racor-460r-series-stock-12-volt-24-volt-diesel-spin-on-filterseparators/
Later Ed
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Ed, yes that Racor with palm pump has not had problems and works very well. Going with
that is trouble free and very simple looking ahead. Dave
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Thanks Dave,
Your insight on this unit is much appreciated. This gives another option for those of us that like to be sure the air is out before we turn the key :-) I was wondering what the fuel pressure might be coming into the pre filter with a Cat C12 arrangement? You may have mentioned it but I have a hard time keeping this all straight...
Later Ed
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Ed, checking on tech line Cat water/fuel filter primer pump. Cat only has a hand primer
pump on the secondary fuel filter along with a hex bleed plug. The water/fuel does not
need a hand pump or electric pump to operate in there fuel system because of there gear
fuel transfer pump on the front of engine. Pertains to Cat C-10 up to C-18 engines. On the
Cat C-9 down, setup is the same but have the electric fuel pump in place that run constant
fuel to engine fuel rail but just pulls fuel through water/fuel filter with no primer hand pump.
Dave
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Question Dave
At Idle I get an occasional "Tic". By tic I mean a short hesitation, maybe a second in duration, very random and I haven't seen anything on the silverleaf logging system. Could the hesitation be air that the computer detects in the fuel system and momentarily derates it?
Bill
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Dave,
Today I installed a Parker fuel hose purchased in Salem, Ore at Motion & Flow for $52.26 (including one female Jic 45 deg elbow due to the tight access on the side of the 3126B). I removed a Gates hose (stamped "made in the USA") with extensive exterior cracking and checking, but I don't know if it had internal decay. The local CAT dealer sent me to Motion & Flow for the fuel hose, since he only had hydraulic.
Thank you for your input on this issue. I feel much better with the Parker hose in place.
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William, yes you are very correct little air in system. The longer you idle before driving, air
will go away. If this starts getting worse ( air in fuel system ). I can hep you through the
problem that you can do yourself. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Dave, not to complain but I am unsure of the part numbers you provided. I went to CAT today and they found the part number for the hose but the fittings and so on werent CAT part numbers.
Could you enlighten me?
thanks much!
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Keith, recheck Cat invoice on part numbers on your question. Page 2, reply #19 has all
information by LaMonte. Empire Cat, Blythe Cal. All the Cat tech need to assemble hose has to
go to there hydraulic fittings and pick out one fitting that fit Into hydraulic hose with a
1/2 -8 JIC female swivel and one fitting that will fit hydraulic hose with -10 JIC female
Swivel. Note the bigger end attach to fuel transfer pump on engine for C-12. What is happening
everything has to be found with the computer in parts desk and numbers not coming up,
but going out to hydraulic shop where fittings, hose and hose press located ( yes they have
the correct fittings it is a no brainer. We had same problem at Rayne, La. that had everything
in hydraulic shop but would not make up the hose. We ended up going down the road to
Parker Hannifin that made our hoses. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic.
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Gentleman, it is starting to seem that a problem getting fuel hose made up at Caterpillar
Dealer is getting very involved ( where it should not be a problem ). after reading about
the very good intentions of membership trying to correct a very serious problem by just
having a fuel hose made up that pertains to operation of engine made by them. Does not
make me happy. Review back and look at post # 22 about the Parker Haniffin hose that
that meets and exceeds all spec required. Again Parker hydraulic hose # 451TC/ST and
All that is needed for fittings for a C-12 one end -8 JIC female swivel and the other end
-8 to -10 JIC female swivel and measure length of your old hose. Cat C-9 and down has
-8 JIC female swivel fittings on both ends ( on the 3126 A,B,E will need a 45 degree adapter
-8 that has a male and female swivel ). Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Dave,
Just wanted to reiterate that I would probably have saved $100s of dollars if I'd simply said replace my old hydraulic hose with a new hydraulic hose. It appears that what you're describing as a workable solution is no longer a plastic hose (which cost me $100s of dollars more) but another hydraulic hose. Is that right?
If it is, then its very important that anyone getting a CAT shop to do this work specific that replacement with a hydraulic hose is OK!
In my case evidently the Portland, Oregon CAT shop acquired a hydraulic hose, but then the manager informed them "NO it's to be a plastic hose that the customer requested", so evidently I wound up purchasing both (numerous fittings on my bill) including the time to acquire same.
I wish I had known $760 ago that a new hydraulic hose was acceptable - it just didn't dawn on me that since my existing hydraulic hose had lasted since 1998 with no ill effects that a new one would be fine. That was just poor thinking on my part, I guess. But then again who knew that the same hose made of plastic would cost me 100s of dollars more? :)
Mike
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Mike, following information and and many questions asked about the hydraulic hose fuel
line failure. It always has been about the rubber hydraulic hose and location of hose in
question. Going back on my notes, questions asked what years did they put on hydraulic
hose for fuel line. When did they change over to plastic fuel line. My answer to all questions
thought 2004 plastic fuel because some beavers had plastic fuel line. While on subject of
Plastic fuel lines also problems with type of connectors push in o-ring with plastic retainer.
Staying with problem air entering fuel system, the older 1996-2004 hydraulic hose that
had failed, and 2004 and newer push in o-ring with plastic retainer also created problem
that allowed air into the fuel system. Sorry that you did not understand everything that has
been posted but again to bring out this problem I thought about this many times to look the other
direction and say nothing. There has been many repairs made ( high dollar ), many people
down on Cat engine high cost to own etc. but nobody addressed the root cause at Service Shops
to owner about air within the fuel system. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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I've been following this subject and decided take a look at my 04 marquis fuel line setup.
From what I can determine, a hydraulic fuel hose (A) goes to the Racor water separator and then from the separator a hydraulic hose (B) goes to the fuel lift pump at the rear bottom of the c12 and then 2 metal lines come out of the fuel lift pump.
My questions is which fuel line A or B should be replaced, or should both be replaced?
Steve
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Steve.the hydraulic hose that goes from water/fuel Racor setup, this is also the hose to fuel transfer pump on the bottom
right side of your C-12. Before you remove hose wipe off outside rubber jacket and look for print in white letters that
says Gates Global ( this is the hose that failed. If you see the word Parker in print on hose, you do not need to remove
hose ( Parker hose is ok ). You will notice the hose fitting on top of fuel transfer pump has a bigger Hex on swivel than
fitting back at Racor water/fuel setup. In case Cat dealer has a problem, take hose to Parker Hannifin that will make up
correct hose you need. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Dave, would I be able to just remove the line in question, take it to the Cat dealer and ask for a new line to be made up, then re-install it my self? That line isn't under pressure. I imagine there may be some leaking fuel issues that could be overcome. Seems like it might be easier than than dealing with Cat about this fitting or that or part numbers. Take it to them and say, "make me a fuel line exactly like this one" Is it more complicated than that? As far as the removal and installation?
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Adam, yes you can remove the fuel hydraulic hose yourself. First you will need two wrenches,
One crescent wrench and one 7/8 open end wrench. First remove hose fittings on the water/fuel
filter,will get about 1/2cup of diesel fuel from hose than use the crescent wrench and remove
Fitting from fuel transfer pump. Than cut plastic zip ties holding hydraulic hose. Before removing hydraulic hose wipe off outside rubber and look for print in white letters ( Gates Global ) if it
does remove hose and replace. If hydraulic hose shows Parker on outside, the hydraulic hose
is ok (do not remove.) would suggest look up and see if there is a Parker Hannifin hydraulic shop
in the area. I posted all the numbers on post # 22 on hydraulic fuel line made by Parker and
price $ 45.00 to $ 50.00. This will give you a second choice if for some reason Cat cannot build
hose. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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I just want to make absolutely clear to everyone that you DO NOT have to and should not replace your rubber hydraulic hose running from the racor filter to the lift pump with a PLASTIC HOSE.
This is where I found my confusion with the entire thread on replacing the existing hydraulic rubber hose. My confusion was that it WAS NECESSARY to replace it with a plastic hose but since a plastic hose is more brittle than the rubber hose the folks at Peterson CAT in Portland, Oregon had to spend obviously quite a bit of time attaching the hose at the RACOR filter/water separator unit in the maintenance bay. They actually CUT OUT part of the bay area above the filter (rather than use the existing hole previously occupied by the rubber hydraulic hose). The reason was the brittleness of the plastic hose I thought was necessary.
So do not use plastic hose for this vintage Beaver. Just have the shop use rubber hydraulic hose. I think this finally clears up the issue and will save you hundreds of dollars believe me.
Mike
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Mike, the problem has been with rubber hose failure. Use of plastic hose as a replacement
starting after 2004 with beavers that plastic fuel lines has a probem with the connections
with the o-ring push in connector with plastic retainer. Plastic hose has been used going
back into the late 90's with Cummins engines. Alpine and Country both for example go back
to when they were first built.
Let's go back to Caterpiller thoughts on plastic hose fuel hose cannot be used because of plastic cracking etc. this a incorrect statement. Cat is a very heavy user of plastic hose in there hydraulic
systems, fuel systems etc. on off road equipment in the 90's as well as today. Fuel systems Cat
from steel lines to plastic. Hydraulic system pilot hoses that operate valves in all there open
center hydraulic valves. Plastic pilot hoses psi pressure rating 450 psi to 600 psi. They also use
crimp type hydraulic connectors that come with Cat o-ring flat face or JIC connectors which they
have in stock also. Again yes Cat Dealer has everything a person need for this problem rubber or
Plastic. Do not get me wrong Mike it is not all your fault about Cat dealer actions and it's very
hard to understand direction they taken. My only answer to all this it was about money, there is
little money to be made even with a build of rubber hose, but they manage to run the bill up
and say whatever to you explaining what they done. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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I just wanted to make it clear to others who've not done this yet that using hydraulic hose is what you want to do. Otherwise you may wind up paying $756 to change out a 4 ft hose.
Mike
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Dave
Regarding my previous question if the bad hose was (A) from filter to water separator or (B) water separator to Fuel Lift Pump why would you not replace both hoses?
Steve
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Steve, you will need to just change out ( B ) filter to pump. Your water/fuel filter
Will pick up everything from the front fuel tank at the water/ fuel filter from going
into fuel system. Reason to change hose if it says gates global because is failing and
Pieces of rubber will stop or restrict flow to fuel transfer pump and fuel rail. ( break down
Of this hose is unprotected from any filter. Yes you can change hose from front fuel tank but is very costly. Dave Atherton Retired cat Mechanic
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Thanks Dave
Sounds like the particle filters are on the output side of the Fuel Lift Pump.
Steve
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Steve, maybe this will help you with hose A&B. The problem is only located on the suction of
the fuel from front fuel tank , to water/fuel filter ( Racor ) than from water/fuel filter goes
to the fuel transfer pump on front lower corner of engine. The discharge on fuel transfer pump
(or pressure side of pump) will push the fuel to the secondary fuel filter under pressure than into engine. The only hose that is unprotected is again the hose after the water/fuel filter ( Racor )
and suction inlet of the fuel transfer pump. With hydraulic hose breaking apart small pieces
will restrict flow of diesel fuel to fuel transfer pump at pump suction inlet.
Dave Atherton Retired cat Mechanic
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Dave
Got It! Your previous reply helps a lot.
Last question, I have a replacement hose and will try to install myself, will the loss of fuel from the fuel line cause starting problems, will the fuel system need to purged of air?
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Steve, just put new hose on and start engine you will not need to bleed the system.
You will loose very little diesel fuel changing hose. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
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Regarding the fuel line work I had done by Peterson CAT in Portland -
This morning I received a very nice email from Nick Smith of Peterson CAT here in Portland. He addressed my concerns and will refund a portion of the parts (extra parts originally ordered to craft a hydraulic hose) and some of the labor involved in the whole process. He also assured me that I have the "cat's meow" as far as a new fuel line and that made Margaret and myself very happy as well. He admitted that most of the time involved was spent scurrying about getting parts and initially they were hydraulic hose and parts and then a second time on the plastic hose and parts.
I just wanted to post that I am happy about our agreement and encourage anyone with a problem with any business to take your concerns politely to that business to seek a meeting of the minds. I just got off the phone with Mr. Smith and everybody is happy.
Mike