BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Michael Hannan on May 03, 2016, 07:51:55 PM
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My coach power cut out twice so far today and came back on before I could get the error code. I'm fairly confident that it was a battery temperature issue as when I went out to check the water level in the batteries I noticed that despite having topped up the water 3 days ago, one battery was in need of water and had vapour coming out of it when I removed the cell covers. The fluid was indeed low. Is my Inverter/charging system malfunctioning? For what it's worth the battery in question is the first (or last) in the group as the negative terminal has a wire coming from the charger. It is also making a bubbling kind of noise.
MJ
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Michael,
Sounds like the boiling battery is bad. A shorted cell will cause this condition. Suggest you have the batteries checked. If it's bad and the others have been in use for a few years, consider replacing all of them as a set.
Steve
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Thanks Steve. Just to confirm, I'm looking for 6 volt deep cycle batteries? I've read about Groups regarding batteries. Not sure what that is all about. Group 27?
MJ
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Michael,
That's correct. Essentially they are 6V golf cart batteries. One of the best you can buy (IMHO) is the Trojan T105. They have more lead (heavier) than most and seem to last longer. They have a 20 amp hour rating of 225 amps which is in the range you should be looking for. One installed, be sure to check the water monthly and equalize every month or so. For checking water I find this real handy and inexpensive.
http://www.amazon.com/Cycle-Battery-Water-Filler-Bottle/dp/B00NB808P0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1462309566&sr=8-2&keywords=Battery+filler
Steve
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Michael,
That's correct. Essentially they are 6V golf cart batteries. One of the best you can buy (IMHO) is the Trojan T105. They have more lead (heavier) than most and seem to last longer. They have a 20 amp hour rating of 225 amps which is in the range you should be looking for. One installed, be sure to check the water monthly and equalize every month or so. For checking water I find this real handy and inexpensive.
http://www.amazon.com/Cycle-Battery-Water-Filler-Bottle/dp/B00NB808P0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1462309566&sr=8-2&keywords=Battery+filler
Steve
My coach batteries are Heinz 57 with at least one being a rebuilt one (that's how I got the coach). This is my first venture with a vehicle with more than one battery. How long should I expect to get out of new batteries (ballpark). Not sure I can swing the Trojans right now. I've seen some in my price range with 80 amp hours. Is more not better in this case? Also, am I looking for group size 27?
Thanks
MJ
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Michael,
IMHO you will be throwing $ away getting 80 amp/hour batteries for your Marquis. The coach puts a significant demand on the batteries and 80amp won't hold up. I don't think a Group 27 will physically fit in any case as it is 12 1/2" long vs a golf cart unit that is about 11" long.
House batteries should last 5 years or more if they are taken care of. If the Trojan is too pricey, check with either golf cart shops or Costco / other warehouse stores etc. Some on the Forum have reported very good results with the Costco battery. This may be of help in your decision. http://beaveramb.org/forum/index.php/topic,4923.0.html
I can't vouch for the golf cart batteries but the Everstart auto batteries that Wal Mart sells have been very reliable for me and get good ratings in Consumer Reports. Interstate are also good but they've gotten pricey, at least here in AZ.
Another option is to test all 6 batteries and replace only the ones that fail or are weak. This will get you through in the short term but IMHO, you should replace all as soon as possible, especially if you have a mix of brands, etc. since you've probably got batteries of differing ages that will fail at different times. Concern here is that one failed battery can cause the others to overload and subsequently fail.
Steve
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Michael, I recently had to replace my chassis batteries and all four of the house batteries. The house batteries were 6 years old and using excessive water and two were getting hot. After removing them I noticed that they were bulged around the terminals too. I found Trojan T 105's at a local golf cart store here in Florida for $87 each. I also found some NAPA chassis batteries that were on sale and replaced both of them. Now they hardly use any water and stay cool when charging and charge a lot less sitting at the house plugged in.
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Michael,
You are definitely describing a bad battery.
As for your question about how long good quality house batteries should last. The original Interstate batteries that came in my coach were replaced by me at 7 years of age with T105 Trojans. I plan to replace those batteries this summer at 9 years of age.
Gerald
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Is this the kind I need to get? http://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/everstart-marinerv-battery-deep-cycle-power/6000195362523
I found Trojan T-105s at a golf shop for $180 CAN or about $140. US.
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Michael,
No, the Walmart battery that you listed is a 12 volt marine battery, and it will not last in your house battery bank anywhere near as long as a good 6 volt golf cart battery, and your will have to rewire your battery bank to change it to use 12 volt batteries.
You can get a good Interstate 6 volt golf cart battery from Costco for about $84 each.
Gerald
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Michael,
I'm pretty sure that is a12V battery. You need 6 volt for the house batteries. Also, I think the DP designation indicates dual purpose which usually means starting in addition to other type loads. This will probably shorten the life.
You should be looking for a Golf Cart battery (6 volt) with 200 amp hours.
Steve
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I would warn you guys about taking your coach to Sam's to have the batteries replace. A friend stopped at Sam's on the way to AZ. to change his batteries because they were shot. The guy at Sam's changed them out, but the coach only lasted 150 ft. and quit. He got out to see what was going on and the whole engine compartment was on fire. He ran back got his fire extinguisher and got the fire out. Long story short, it totaled the coach. Sam's tried to buy him off, and fix the coach, but what they offered was nearly an insult, so he called his insurance company, and they totaled it. Told him they would get the money back from Sam's. So be forewarned, before you sail into changing your batteries, take a picture, smartest easiest way to be sure you have them right.
I have been looking at batteries to, I have Duracell's in my coach, I have one that's FUBARED, but I think it will get me home. The battery that are in my coach are $108.00 apiece.
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I'm going out on a limb to make a suggestion and ask a question as well!
-If one is on a tight budget....
-If one never "dry camps" or "boondocks"....
-If one normally keeps his Beaver plugged in....
-If a one starts his Onan during a power outage...
-If one never runs the Microwave, coffee pot or TV on the inverter....
-If one does not have a residential refrigerator....
-If one does not run the Hydro/AquaHot with (all the fans and circulating pumps) when not plugged in...
Why does a Beaver need 4 golf cart batteries?
The only time our Monterey (with 4 T-105s) showed anything more that a 5% discharge was when we were at Quartzsite, Mt Rainier, Oshkosh or Sun 'n Fun dry camping. Twice we were in campgrounds with crappy power and unplugged. Running the Onan, instead of living off the batteries, keeps them charged anyway. How many have left the Onan running 24 hours a day when their batteries were, wanted air conditioning or were relying on a breathing machine?
My sister and brother in law have a brand new class C and it was delivered with a single 12 volt deep cycle. It works! I've had a boat and two fifth wheels that had two 12 volt deep cycles. They had a switch that kept the second battery as a rarely used backup. Our new motorcabin has two 12 volt deep cycle Interstates for house batteries and it is plenty. Except for dry camping one would be plenty.
If one is not a "dry camper" I would suggest a single Walmart 12 volt deep cycle house battery would work fine! A little beefier set up would be two golf cart 6 volts. Or two 12 volts like our motorcabin. But four T-105s?
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I would ask with all those "ifs", why have a Beaver? Get a tent camper and go thrifty.
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I would ask with all those "ifs", why have a Beaver? Get a tent camper and go thrifty.
David,
You are right of course! But, my suggestion is based on a personal observation. I sense that a portion of our members are second or third owners who have bought into bargain priced Beavers for full time living. They may be focused on thrifty full time living rather than thrifty full time camping. Deep battery reserves for an annual week at Quartzsite may not be needed.
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Michael,
You need to stick with 6v golf cart batteries like others have said. I would not worry about buying at Sams, Costco, or if you can afford them, then Trojans. I bought Trojans at $95 each that were blemished, larger golf cart dealers may have a blemished pallet....just scratches on the case. As far as Sams is concerned, where I live they will not install batteries, so there is no risk of error. They sell a lot of golfcart batteries where I live and friends who have them have not had trouble with them.
Most important....You need to photograph and diagram all of the terminal connections before you do any changing out of batteries. If there is any doubt put masking tape on leads and number them in your diagram. It is dangerous to you and the coach to short one of these connections or miswire this set up. Batteries have been known to rupture, melt a lead post, or explode if a direct short was to happen. This change out of batteries is not a big deal, you just have to respect that acid and a lot of electrical energy is being stored, so when you are sure of your diagram and markings then you will be fine.
If money is tight still buy a quality battery and at least change out the shorted one, that is a necessity. Anytime a battery produces heat, has a cell that boils out fluid, or acts different then the rest it needs immediate attention. Perhaps buy one battery a month and in 6 months you will be done.
Later Ed
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I would ask with all those "ifs", why have a Beaver? Get a tent camper and go thrifty.
David,
You are right of course! But, my suggestion is based on a personal observation. I sense that a portion of our members are second or third owners who have bought into bargain priced Beavers for full time living. They may be focused on thrifty full time living rather than thrifty full time camping. Deep battery reserves for an annual week at Quartzsite may not be needed.
Very well put Bill!
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Michael,
You need to stick with 6v golf cart batteries like others have said. I would no worry about buying at Sams, Costco, or if you can afford them Trojans. I bought Trojans at $95 each that were blemished, larger golf cart dealers may have a blemished pallet....just scratches on the case. As far as Sams is concerned, where I live they will not install batteries, so there is no risk of error, they sell a lot of golfcart batteries there where I live and friends who have them have not had trouble with them.
Most important....You need to photograph and diagram all of the terminal connections before you do any changing out of batteries. If there is any doubt put masking tape on leads and number them in your diagram. It is dangerous to you and the coach to short one of these connections or miswire this set up. Batteries have been known to rupture, melt a lead post, or explode if a direct short was to happen. This change out of batteries is not a big deal, you just have to respect that acid and a lot of electrical energy is being stored, so when you are sure of your diagram and markings then you will be fine.
If money is tight still buy a quality battery and at least changing out the shorted one, that is a necessity. Anytime a battery produces heat, has a cell that boils out fluid, or acts different then the rest it needs immediate attention. Perhaps buy one battery a month and in 6 months you will be done.
Later Ed
Thanks Ed. I need to replace some of the cables too where the insulation has torn and exposed the wire leaving it exposed to corrosion.
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Michael,
I was in a hurry and did not proof read that post that I did, not very well written but the info is correct.
You should neutralize the post and terminal corrosion with baking soda and water. Wet the posts and cable a little and then sprinkle on baking soda and let it fizzle. Add a little water or baking soda as needed. Rinse all the baking soda away. Be careful while spraying if you have an echo charger in there, protect it with masking tape and a plastic bag. Keep the baking soda mixture from getting into the cells.
Buy some of this terminal protector and keep a coat on all the terminals and they will not corrode. It is available locally at auto parts supply stores.
http://www.amazon.com/CRC-05046-Technician-Terminal-Protector/dp/B000CIPUNC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1462397504&sr=8-1&keywords=battery+terminal+spray
I would change the bad cables and the bad battery at the same time, being careful to not mix anything up. If you pull one cable at a time and go get another one made to match the length and gauge you will keep things sorted out better. If you are comfortable with multiple cable changes at a time then just be careful. Truck supply places will be more likely to have the right cable.
Later Ed
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Yes I have a box of baking soda that I keep next to the battery tray. The best price I found for Trojan T-105s locally was $185 But Costco has an equivalent for $140. I have 3 T-105s in the group now that look to be in good shape, The other 3 are suspect and are all refurbished so I will replace those plus the worn cables.
MJ
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Michael,
Never heard of a refurbished battery but it sounds like a bad idea.... Batteries get recycled for the lead but they create a brand new battery.
Later Ed
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Michael,
Never heard of a refurbished battery but it sounds like a bad idea.... Batteries get recycled for the lead but they create a brand new battery.
Later Ed
I hadn't heard of refurbished either Ed but that's what the label on them says. Not sure if the previous owner or the dealer I bought it from put them in. Not something I'd entertain doing.
MJ
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If it were me, I'd pull all 4 and take them across the border as core trades to a Costco where the cost is substantially less for Johnson Controls-built Interstate deep-cycle 6v. units. Even at current exchange rates, it ought to be worth the travel cost.
Just my 3 cents,
Joel
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If I lived on the mainland I would but I'm 2 ferry rides & costs away from the border. I have 6 house batteries. Thanks for the idea.
MJ
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......You need to stick with 6v golf cart batteries like others have said. ......
Ed,
Your reputation for electrical system knowledge is second to none. My experience is strictly amateur. But, I think someone who does not dry camp "off the grid" can use a lot less than a set of 4 to 6 Trojan T-105s. Between the engine alternator, the Onan or shore power a Beaver might not need much reserve power for the house systems.
I don't have a Beaver handy to put my DC Clamp meter on. I would like to figure out what the "at rest" battery draw is in amps. At rest is the draw for circuits with continuous draw like the circuit boards in the fridge, CO detector, Hydro/Aqua Hot, etc. It would not include the higher amp draw of the fans or pumps in the heating system, the inverter, microwave, etc. Based on the memory of looking at the Aladdin, I think it is about 5 amps.
A chart showing common Interstate batteries shows their Group 24, model SRM-24 will carry a 5 amp load for 17 hours. A 15 amp load should provide 5 hours until depleted. (A pair of the SRM-24 batteries are my current house batteries in our small motorhome that will certainly survive a day or two of dry camping.)
The heaviest short term 12 volt load in our Beaver was the jacks and slides. My habit was to normally leave it plugged into shore power while operating those. Longer duration, but less load, was the heating system.
Considering the "real" demands of a non dry camping Beaver, would not the use of one (or maybe two) marine "deep cycle" 12 volt batteries be sufficient. Assuming they were never deeply discharged, 500 CCA should be enough.
Even if sticking with golf cart six volt batteries, a pair should be sufficient for short term needs where dry camping is not on activity list.
What am I missing? It seems a waste to invest in necessary reserve capacity.
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Bill,
You are right this is an issue of supply and demand. The Marquis have a lot of "stuff" in them and are not very miserly with 12 V current usage. The halogen lighting, the TV in particular, the Microwave, the ECU draw on the chassis set, sat dish, the list goes on but if you are willing to manage power fewer batteries are probably OK especially if you are willing to change the halogen lights to leds and limit TV watching while on 12V. If Michael never spends the night in a Wal-Mart or some other off the grid place and is not interested in dry camping then four 6V batteries may work out well for him. Not sure I would drop to two, as the batteries got older the capacity diminishes and that would likely be trouble in a Marquis. He would have to be sure and configure the placement in the tray in a way that kept them secure and in place.
As far as Group 24 or 27 I have not had as good performance and longevity out of those type batteries. I think the plates are not as robust as the ones made for deep cycle golf carts. I personally would stick with the 6V, if you get a few extra years out of the 6V then they may even be more cost effective then the 24 or 27..
Later Ed
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Bill and David,
My suggestion to Michael would be to instead of just buying a Walmart 12 volt battery that would have a terrible life expectancy, would be to just find the worst two golf cart batteries in his 6 house battery bank and move the cables to change it to a 4 house battery bank until he has excess money to replace batteries or just leave his Marquis with a 4 battery house bank like many Patriots and Montereys.
Gerald
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I made a trip to Costco yesterday and bought 3 made for Costco unknow brand golf cart 6v batteries. I am going to replace the 3 refurbished batteries, one of which is the culprit boiling. The 3 remaining are all Trojan T-105 and appear in good shape.I will replace those 3 as soon as I can. Do I unplug from shore power and shut off the inverter before replacing them? I know to disconnect the negative terminal to the group first.
MJ
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Michael,
The answer is yes, disconnect from shore power, shut down the inverter, turn off the house battery switch. When you pull the plus lead that connects to the coach I would tape it off with electrical tape so it is insulated until you are ready to put it back together. The solar panels may still have an output tied to that lead of a few amps of supply so you do not want to touch that to ground (chassis or battery cables).
The only other thing to be concerned about is something like an echo charger or big boy chassis battery combiner. Pull the fuses before you start if you have an echo charger. If a big boy you should be fine with taping the plus lead off.
Later Ed
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New batteries installed. Didn't blow anything up & I have power. Inverter shows that new batteries are charging. All is good in my world. For now. LOL
Thanks to all for your help.
MJ
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Good news Michael! A Beaver without power is like a day without sunshine :-)
Later Ed