BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Keith Moffett Co-Admin on January 31, 2017, 02:30:47 AM
-
Anyone have the Advanced Flow cleanable air filter? This appears to be like the K&N.
What kind of fuel mileage did you see using this and how often did it need service?
-
Keith,
IMHO the cleanable filters (e.g K&N) do not filter anywhere as efficiently as the replaceable ones. I wouldn't risk my engine with one.
Steve
-
Thats been my experience in general automotive. Thanks Steve
-
Keith,
The air filter system on your PT will flow all the air the Cat C13 needs, if you want a little more air for some reason you can get a air filter for a C 15 that will fit with a minor mod to the mount.
Cat will not warranty any motor with a K & N air filter on it. Our motors are way out of warranty but in any case if they will not warranty any K&N filtered motor they must know something, here is a link to a test ran on filters.http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html
Personally I would not put a K&N filter on any stock motor, hi performance is a different animal.
-
Lee thank you, the K&N filter will not filter out the fine power dust like the OEM filter will.
This fine power dust is what will damage the engine. Piston rings, oil guides etc. in additional
information taking Cat oil samples at oil change this fine power will show up in the oil sample
Report.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic.
-
I know there's a lot of lasting negative feeling out there regarding the infamous K&N filter, including among our best respected advisors here. Decades ago I had a K&N as part of a Banks Engineering installation on our old Pace Arrow. A few times I did the wash and re-oil thing. No problems. I was cognizant and wary, however after reading warnings here and elsewhere, about putting one on our Beaver.
So I would be remiss not to add to this discussion that things change, and perhaps a re-examination is in order. A consult with Robert Henderson of Henderson's Line-up in Grant's Pass made me aware that the K&N isn't the same as it was. Yes you can clean it, but re-oiling it is not in the procedure. With the demise of the oil application that required larger, coarser fabric for air to get through past the oil, the media could be made deeper, multi-tiered, and finer to trap all particulates; I'm no engineer certainly, but I view it sort of like our 10 micron into 2 micron fuel filter principal, only with more levels.
Robert went through the factory not too long ago and was impressed with the revamped engineering behind recent filter models relevant to diesel rigs. He is one of those fellows whose opinion about performance engineering one has to respect, and he changed his attitude toward the brand. He has no concerns these days about putting one on a diesel coach. That's not something to brush aside.
I'm not saying to run out and buy a K&N. I'm simply proffering reasons to research and consider the newest versions, rather than cast the brand aside based on a perhaps aged reputation. Certainly if that doesn't prove enough or the initial cost puts one off, then the easiest and known-dependable route is a genuine CAT or Cummins filter.
Without a doubt some wouldn't ever avert from using only CAT or Cummins filters, and that is to be respected for its reasoning; my approach over the years with regard to manufacture-branded parts usually has followed accordingly. I just wanted to provide more than one side to the discussion, as it seems strongly lopped. I hope it is helpful.
But Keith was asking about an entirely different brand than K&N anyway, as I take it.
Joel
-
Joel,
I understand your viewpoint, but in the extensive research that I have done on air filters, I have never seen a study where a washable filter of any brand that was as efficient at removing fine dust particles as the OEM paper air filters that our coaches came with. The washable filters flow more air because they are less restrictive, and therefore the fine dust goes right through them. I want the cleanest air possible going into my engine, therefore I would never think of using a washable air filter on my coach.
Gerald
-
Joel,
I understand your viewpoint, but in the extensive research that I have done on air filters, I have never seen a study where a washable filter of any brand that was as efficient at removing fine dust particles as the OEM paper air filters that our coaches came with. The washable filters flow more air because they are less restrictive, and therefore the fine dust goes right through them. I want the cleanest air possible going into my engine, therefore I would never think of using a washable air filter on my coach.
Gerald
Gerald, are there any filter brands to stay away from and which is the most efficient? Thanks
Jerry
-
Jerry,
I would say any of the name brand filters from Fram, Fleetguard, Wix, Donaldson, etc are all made to a certain spec. I would stay away from any washable so called high flow elements. I don't know how your PT is setup for air intake, on my 06 PT it has a 7" in and out of the filter. The vacuum gauge never seems to move much off of the bottom. The C13 is getting all the air it needs, I had thought about going with the filter for the C15 which is a easy mod.
-
Gentleman, good review on the K&N filter. One Thing Dave did not mention in his above post
entry of fine dust will take out a engine very quick. Caterpillar prevention for people that need
to travel in dusty conditions go with the extreme service air filter. What the extreme service
does is add a inter air filter inside your present outer air filter on your motorhome. What the
inner air air filter does catch any dirt fines ( dust ) that may pass through the outer air filter.
Last note: cleaning air filter, do not tap air filter on hard surface because the paper that is glued
To hold filter ends in place breaks loose and dirt goes direct into engine. Low air pressure
35 to 40 pounds and blow from inside or middle of filter to outside. Washing air filters, Caterpillar
stopped that practice many years ago. The following reason the paper that air filter is made
from drys and gets hard and pulls restriction on air system. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic
-
There is a lot of information on this subject from prior posts. K+N has been discussed.
http://beaveramb.org/forum/index.php/topic,1884.0.html
Donaldson Endurance Filters are probably the best on the market if you want a both a high capacity filter (ability to capture dirt and still allow the passage of air over time) and one that has the highest capture rates of large and small particles. Donaldson Endurance filters accomplish this by having two kinds of media. A surface media that captures larger particles and holds them above the fine media that is below. These filters start out a bit higher in air restriction then a standard pleated media filter but over time it is less restrictive in the passage of air over its life due to its design.
From any research I have done neither Cat nor Donaldson recommends any blowing out of final air filters given there is no reasonable way to keep all that dust that has been collected on the exterior from now getting on the intake side of the filter while "blowing it out" from the inside. That practice allows dirt to get into the intake of your engine when you put it back in service. Best practice and what is recommended is to just replace a dirty filter. This is a Donaldson guide on air filter service and use...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ2HViIGDeQ
Later Ed
-
Ouch Ed, last time I did my general engine maintenance, I had the tech visually check the filter. Now I know that wasn't the right thing to do from watching the video.
so far so good as I've put many miles on the engine since August but I'll know better next time. The filter did pass the visual inspection however with flying colors as it looked new after 2 years.
Mike
-
Mike,
I think that there may be times when you might pull a filter and inspect it when you think there may be an issue. Their point is that the pressure indicator is probably your better guide. How a filter physically looks dirt wise, is less important then what the restriction indicator pressure reading is telling you.
One point that is rarely mentioned is that when you check that indicator as part of your normal maintenance check it should not change much over time, except if you are traveling on dirt or dusty roads. If the pressure indicator ever went lower during the filter life I would want to immediately check the system and inspect it all from end to end given the possibility that a filter may have failed or some piping or clamp may have come loose so that your are no longer seeing the normal restriction level of the filter system. The system would then be allowing contamination into the air intake system.
As part of your maintenance, like checking your oil, you should reset the indicator and see that after driving it goes back to the previous restriction level. This is a peak vacuum measurement device that will hold that high value and not tell you if your system now has a lower vacuum level without resetting it. You do this by pressing on the bottom of the indicator gauge if it is one of the typical color coded vacuum units.
Hope this helps.
Later Ed
-
I'll add my 2 cents to this discussion (and it is worth that much). I concur with Lee and Ed and have communicated with them and others on the (baffling) issue of the filter on the C13 (model year 2007). I don't think that the engine is held back as I too see high 40s of boost. I do wish for more power, especially when merging or stop light drags, but then again it is 40000lbs.
The issue I have is with the filter minder and the whole is the filter dirty or not problem. This past fall I replaced a filter because it was 2 years old and had less than 10000 miles on it. Filter minder said it was near full. Took it out and while there certainly was dirt in it there was also a lot of white paper element left (Donaldson filter).
So I replaced the filter minder as it always showed 1/2 or more full and also replaced the filter. On initial replacement the minder showed over 1/2 full - reset it a couple of times and now with 4000 miles on it shows 3/4 full.
I do have a few miles of gravel to get home but certainly nothing that should compromise the filter. Nevertheless I'll likely end up replacing the filter in a year at probably 6000 miles for another $200+.
It just frustrating not knowing how dirty the filter actually is and whether to replace it.
Jeff
-
Jeff - I too changed the Filter Minder on our coach. It showed near the "red line" before I cleaned the cleanable air filter (AFE wet oil). After cleaning the filter, the Filter Minder showed the same reading. I subsequently installed a new Filter Minder and the new one showed a reading near the "green line." My assumption is the original Filter Minder was "broken."
-
David, could that be the filter Keith asked about in the original post here, but until now hasn't been directly answered?
-
For those of with the AFE (Advanced Flow Engineering) filter,
www.aFepower.com
There is an instruction sheet for cleaning and oiling. Of note it specifies no heat for drying and no air pressure to blow out the dirt.
-
I think this is the filter in my coach. $313.95
aFe POWER 70-50004 ProHDuty Pro 5R Air Filter for 70-50104
http://afepower.com/afe-power-70-50004-prohduty-pro-5r-air-filter-for-70-50104#overview
-
Jeff and All,
The filter minder measures vacuum in the intake system. It records the peak vacuum which as a filter capacity is used up (surface area is plugging more) the vacuum will rise. The vacuum is also a function of the initial restriction of the intake system design. In my 2002 Marquis the vacuum was in the mid yellow section of the filter minder, that was the starting point of a clean filter because of the intake system design.
The way to handle this is to just run by the vacuum gauge minder and know that we will not get as much filter usage life because of the marginal intake design. That is less restriction can be allotted to the filter plugging and stay within the air restriction range of the indicator before it goes to red. So your filters could look pretty clean while they still would need changing due to some added restriction.
Later Ed
-
Thanks Ed,
I appreciate the clarification of this issue.
Jeff
-
The CAT document "Caterpillar Filters Recommendations" has been posted to ASK DAVE on BAC Website. It covers CAT's recommendations for usage and care of both air and fluid filters. Based on the discussion on this thread, you may find the information on pages 23-25 of particular interest.
Steve
-
There seems to be something getting lost here in discussing Caterpillar air cleaners, and that is that none of our coaches use a Caterpillar air filter. The article that Steve posted is relating to Caterpillar air filters that are used in Caterpillar equipment and not over the road engines. Our coaches, just like most HD trucks came with the intake system (including air filter) that was designed by the chassis builder. Most Beaver coaches use either Donaldson or Baldwin air filters, so for air filter related information, you should check their websites.
Gerald
-
Gerald,
Thanks for the clarification.
Steve
-
Speaking of air filters....does anyone have the Donaldson P/N for the C-12??? This thread reminded me I want to change mine.
-
Dick,
This was right for my 2002 Marquis with a C12, think it will fit yours but Keith pointed out he thinks there were two versions used in 02. These fit in a black vertical plastic round housing from below with a cover on the bottom that used plastic thumb screws to hold the cover on. Not sure if later years used the same housing, I am not sure. Prices are as of when I wrote an earlier post.
Donaldson Endurance filter, EAF5069 was the number for my Marquis. Ryder Fleet prices this filter at $53.30. The standard filter version is P527682 at $37.62, about $15 more. Given the extended life of the Endurance it is actually cheaper per mile to own.
Later Ed
-
Dick
Aparently there were two versions used on the 02 with C-12. When first we got ours they gave us a new filter to install that was a canister. If I recall correctly it was the later version. Ours was the cartridge version. The housing looked like a rubbermaid trash can with lid turned upside down.
Just a heads up.
-
For those of us with the AFE cleanable filter on the 07Thunder, a return to the canister paper filter OEM.
The Donnaldson PN is P 537448
It is available on the BAC Amazon link for about $155.
The Fleetguard PN AH8503 (confirm this one) is available from BCS for about $175.
NAPA Gold price was $255.
Given the info from Dave and Gerald I will be using the OEM until evidence shows otherwise. Joel may be right about a newer version but until then it isnt worth the risk.
-
I think maybe Cat knows a little bit about filters and filter systems and they say no way with any cleanable filter. Or you can buy a rebuilt motor or in frame yours for 10 to 15K.
All for a couple hundred bucks!
-
Lee you are in place to say, Yes Caterpillar makes Air Filters for your Caterpillar engine in
your motorhome. The information that Steve posted pertains to on road and off road engines.
The miss information comes from the off road engine is the same engine in your motorhome.
Truck engines have regen same as motorhomes. Good view pointed out Lee. Take a reviewed of
how builder has gone to the edge of the box with install of intake air piping. Than putting a air filter
housing to fit space in motorhome that allowing enough air entry into engine has been questioned
by several. The big question as many interest review this subject, your engine is a Caterpillar
built and tested with Caterpillar parts. Different ideas and change has been made with install
of systems with builder that again is on the edge of the box with the Caterpillar engine spec.
Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic.
-
Just a bit of perspective in agreeing with Dave and Gerald
I was reading the Onan manual and it specifies using Onan air filters as the seal is different than after market. The point is they say even a thimble full of dust can kill the generator.
I suspect it would be much the same for the CAT.
-
Ed, thanks for the P/N, just ordered one from Amazon, about the same $$$.
-
For anyone that might have any reservations about Donaldson air filters, they made the first diesel air filters and have been in business over 100 years growing to a worldwide company with over 2 billion in revenue last year. They have achieved this by spending on research and by being innovative in the filter business creating a filter media that is superior.
The two jobs of the air filter is to remove as much of the dirt of all sizes as possible and to do that job without plugging up and restricting air which is measured by the contaminant loading filter capacity. The Donaldson Blue filters with ultraweb do that job by holding the bulk of the larger particles above the main high capacity fine nanoweb mesh structure. There is no better air filter on the market that I can find of any brand. Cat has some blue colored air filters that may be made by Donaldson, but I am not sure.
All the white air filters of any brand typically use some form of cellulose mesh. The graphs in the attachment compare the range of performance of cellulose filters available to remove particles as well as the capacity of those filters compared to the Donaldson filters with blue ultraweb media. Dirt is wear and these engines pull a lot of air. There have been times, like when we visited the Boron/Borax mine in CA, while driving the access road I could not see the rear of the coach due to the clouds of fine dust. We drove thirty miles of road repair that was down to dirt in Montana, the whole time in clouds of dust. You never know what the driving environment will throw at you.
Compare the blue nanoweb media performance with the range of the white cellulose filters on the two graphs in the attachment. I have no bias toward any brand, I use whatever filter is the best for the job at hand. I use Cat high efficiency brand for oil and final fuel filters because Cat built a superior filter. As far as air filters Donaldson has spent the money to create a superior product that simply does a better job.
Later Ed
-
Ed, your knowledge and research skills continue to amaze me. Thank you!!
-
Thanks Jerry,
These engines are fine pieces of machinery and keeping the oil, fuel, and air clean will cost us less in the long run :-)
Later Ed
-
Here's an update
I ordered the Donaldson air filter off Amazon. I installed it today. I looked in the cleanable filter and there were small globs of dirt everywhere on the dirty side but the clean side was ok, not great but ok.
That said I realized a 20% ish improvement on the air guage.
-
Here's an update
I ordered the Donaldson air filter off Amazon. I installed it today. I looked in the cleanable filter and there were small globs of dirt everywhere on the dirty side but the clean side was ok, not great but ok.
That said I realized a 20% ish improvement on the air guage.
Now you're talking, keep that air clean.