BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Tom and Pat Fudale on November 06, 2010, 01:59:34 PM
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When connected to AC, my Xantrex displays AC present, but my Alladin displays no AC present. Any suggestions?
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Tom,
I do not have a schematic for this arrangement, but I have reasoned that this assembly is used for the sensing of current and voltage for the Alladin unit. I have a 2002 Marquis, and this assembly is in a metal box that is linked to the transfer relay. (resides next to it) They are similar size Grey metal boxes. On my coach they are located on the ceiling of the storage bay near the Xantrex. The round shape black "donuts" are toroid transformers. The main AC line passes through it and the toroids inductively pick up the current flow for the Alladin to measure and display. I believe the small transformers are used for voltage sensing. They are 120V to 12.6 volt step down signal transformers. They use those to generate a safe voltage level that is sent to the Alladin to translate back into an AC voltage readout. The step down low voltage proportionately follows the AC line voltage. Photo of this assembly is attached.
You could check for voltage on the transformer output leads. It should be about 12.6 V with AC present in the coach. If it is not, then the Alladin would not be getting its sense voltage and you will have to see why that is. If the voltage is correct on the small transformers then you may be able to see if the Alladin Panel connections and fuses are good. If they are O.K. then it is likely that you have a problem with the Alladin unit itself. I have never pulled the Alladin panel so I'm not sure how the connections are made and if user servicable fuses are installed. That is just where I would go looking next if I had the problem....Hope this helps.
later Ed
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On my '04 Monterey the "toroid transformers" are behind the AC distribution panel in the bedroom. A few inches away are inline fuses that have such a low amp rating that I had to get them from an electronics specialty store. I was getting a blank reading on one leg and traced it to a blown fuse. Memory suggests they are 1/10th amp fuses. (PS: Thanks Ed for the correct name for the donuts.)
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Bill,
Good point on the fuses. That could be the source of Tom's problem. I did not notice any fuses in mine but I was actually working on quieting the buzz from the transfer relays and they may have been in there. I remember fondly the days when donuts were part of the acceptable menu....those were the days.
Later Ed
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Ed,
I have located the toroid transformers. They are in the same box as the transfer relay. I tested fuses which are ok. I get 12 volts from transfers. There is a telephone like connection from the box, which probably is probably used to generate the signal to the Alladin. I have no idea where it terminates for me to look for bad connections.
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Tom,
Seems like a small cable to provide the signal path to the Aladdin, but it may. I have seen them used before for thermostats and the like. If your Aladdin still reads current properly and the cable is a plug like a phone line, you could check the AC current at the Aladdin, shut off the Aladdin, disconnect the cable, turn the Aladdin back on and see if the current reading goes away. If it does then, I would assume, that this is the signal cable you are looking for. It should be connected at the other end to the Aladdin display. I would pull the display and pull the plugs and reinsert then a couple of times at both ends to renew the contacts. If that does not work, then the next step would be to find a female receptacle for the phone type plug that has some wires on it and measure at the Aladdin end of the cable that you see the two 12V AC sources that are being fed into the Aladdin. If 12V is not there, then the cable is a problem. If the 12V is there, then the display circuitry is faulty. It may be a phone line type plug, or if it is a little larger but a similar style, it may be an Ethernet plug.
I have never had to work on one of these systems so I am no expert. Hope I'm not leading you down the garden path with my logic......just letting you know what I would be doing if it were me.
later Ed
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I had the same problem with the aladdin showing both legs off, when on shore power and generator. I had to replace the aladdin module in bay with the tanks on my '06 Monterey.
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Tom,
Roger may have provided us some insight. There are interface modules along the wall of the bay in my coach that allow sensor calibrations and provides sensor information. It may be that the voltage and current signals are handled by one of these bay modules and then interfaced with a buss to the main Aladdin unit. I'm not sure if any anyone has a schematic for this system or more info.
If you can get access, can you see what the other end of that "phone wire" is connected to?
later Ed
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Ed,
Sorry that phone cable is actually an earthnet connection. I have a Interface module in the tank bay that is labeled DC interface module. It has connections for solar volts, solar amps, house volts, house amps, aux volts and aux amps. Could the house volt connection be the one from the toroid? If it is, it has a different plug than the earthnet cable where it originates.
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Tom,
I think that all those items are indeed logical to be handled by one interface board, they are similar measurements. Remember we are still working in the dark here but logic would say that if all the other measurements at the Alladin Readout are reading properly then one would think that the main unit is reading data from the interface cable up in the coach and translating it properly to the display. I think the problem is most likely to be that interface board but it is not certain. First check the labeling on all the bay interface modules and make sure one does not say AC Amps, AC Volts to be sure that we are working with the right interface module.
This is a bit of a guess between "house volts" and "aux volts" being the input that we are looking for. If the "AUX VOLTS" cable end plug looks like the one that originated at the box with the Toroids in it then I think that is the right cable.
If you could get an Ethernet receptacle or cable that could mate to the plug that is presently plugged into the "AUX VOLTS" on the bay interface module we could then take some measurements. We would need a set of wires with the ends stripped so that we have measurement access. You may be able to make one by sacrificing a short Ethernet cable with the proper end on it. I believe that the Aux Current comes from the toroidal (donut) transformers and the Aux volts come from those small signal transformers. Two pairs of the wires leading to "Aux volts" should have 12V AC on them when the main coach AC cord is connected and should go to zero Volts when the AC cord is disconnected and the inverter is off. If we can confirm that then we know we have the right signal line, the right module interface, and the proper signal to the interface board.
That is what I would be looking to do if it were me, but feel free to "honorably discharge" yourself, if this is going deeper into trouble shooting than you really wanted to. You could also search for a new interface module and troubleshoot it by replacing it. I think that board is the problem but confirming the input would make us more certain for sure. Hope this helps.
later Ed
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ED, Thanks for the help, I'll probably get back to you later as I found an Alladin service manual on a web site iRV2.com from a person with user name of TWOMED. It is 33 pages long so it will take this Polish brain a while to read it.
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I followed Tom's information. At IRV2 you can see that Dave Rudisill helped post the Alladin manual at a place called "Media Fire", a file hosting site. You can download the manual here: http://www.mediafire.com/file/cx0c00tr3a6awrw
Interesting the file actually came with Dave Rudisill's help. He used to post here when he owned a '04 Beaver. Apparently BAC rules prevent his participation here after he sold his Beaver.
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Tom and Bill,
Thanks for the information. I just downloaded the manual. Good find.
Looks like page 7 shows an ACI module that is the module used for AC input from the J box we have been talking about in the bay that contains the "signal" transformers. They say the voltage monitor transformers should output 16V AC, I had reasoned 12V from the transformer PN. on mine. Not sure, but not important.
You can follow their troubleshooting tips and see if it solves your problem. If not you may still want to know that the input wire is providing the 16V or 12V AC input to be sure that it is the module that is the problem and not the lack of input voltage information before you try and order a module. Hope this helps.
later Ed
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Ed,
Well for more fun. My '05 Montery does not have an ACI, but only a ATSM. I am assuming that it serves the same purpose. Will check that out today.
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Tom,
It is never easy. Bottom line, you need to find the other end of the signal cable that ties to the box with those transformers, by the transfer relay. Is it possible to physically follow it? That should be a trip....
Later Ed
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Ed, I finally decided to take the cover off the ATSM and have a look inside and found that it was corroded, I had found some water in the compartment a while ago from possibly the wheel well. All those modules a located on the wall opposite the wheel well that needed to be caulked, some water must have entered the module. Ordered a new module from Monoco,installed it and it is working as it is supposed too. Should have a little more curious a long time ago. Thanks for all the help.
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Tom,
Congratulations on the fix. I'm sure you are happy to have this behind you and have it all working again.
Sometimes you can recover a corroded board by carefully scrubbing away the corrosion with a red scotchbrite pad and spraying some electrical cleaner spray that you can get at an automotive shop. If a single land pattern is corroded open you can sometimes bridge them with solder and wire braid. If the water and corrosion caused a short it may be beyond repair, if it caused an open then there is a chance.
Glad I could help....always learning something new.....
Later Ed
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[quote author=]....I had found some water in the compartment a while ago from possibly the wheel well. All those modules a located on the wall opposite the wheel well that needed to be caulked, some water must have entered the module...[/quote]I had to have the same module replaced. Every time I drove in the rain, there was some water in the waste tank bay. I could see mud streaks on the bulkhead that the module was mounted on. There was also dirty water marks on the floor in that bay. It seems to have been spinning off the tire at freeway speeds.
I tried a couple times to seal it unsuccessfully. First I used foam from a can inside on the seam above the module. Another time I bought undercoat and tried to coat the inside of the wheel well. On the last try I actually found the gap with a putty knife. Holding the knife on the ceiling of the wheel well I could slide it forward into the tank bay. The gap was about 1/32 inch. I filled the gap with silicone and it is now dry in the tank bay.
As a stop gap to prevent the water from attacking the second module I built an ugly tent over it with duct tape! It kept the module dry until I finally found the leak! The "tent" remains in case the seal opens up without me knowing it.
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I also caulked all the seams and also added 2 inch spacers to keep the modules away from the wheel well. Added rubber "awnings" over each module to help keep any water from entering them. I hope this works, it's just another case of bad design by the manufacture that we have to correct.