BAC Forum
General Boards => Technical Support => Topic started by: Trige Gleim on January 29, 2018, 05:08:27 AM
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We joined the BAC today and this is my first post. We own a 2007 Beaver Contessa with a CAT C9 engine. We’ve owned it for only 7 months and its our first RV.
I’m a novice when it comes to technical issues. Here’s the situation. The coach has been in outdoor storage all winter in Ohio, not plugged in. The batteries were low so I removed them, had them charged and tested at a battery store and I put them back in the coach just recently. When I went to start the coach, thats when the problem was noticed. I put the key in the ignition and turned it one click and the instrument panel lights came on and went through their cycle of flashing/beeping as normal. Once that was done I turned the key to start it, and nothing happened. No click, no noise at all. I also noticed that the lights that normally come on for the Transmission Control Pad did not light up showing what gear the transmission is in. Additionally the Power Gear Pad which shows the airbag mode did not light up like it normally does. I know the batteries are good, I've cleaned the posts and terminals, and confirmed they are hooked up right, and I know there’s some power from the chassis batteries because I hear a beep when I turn the disconnect with from off to on. Additionally the power door lock operates when I have the chassis disconnect switch on but does not operate when I have the switch turned off. Again, I don’t have a technical background but I’m eager to learn, fix it myself, and save money. You can recommend I check this or that but without great details/diagrams, etc, I will struggle. Please ask for any more information that you need to help me resolve this problem. Thank you, I know I’ve come to the right place!
Trige
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Trige
First let me say welcome to the Beaver family and club. There are many more qualified here to answer your question than am I but lets get a start. (pun intended)
Shooting from the hip I am going to ask about the batteries. It is always suggested to take a few pictures of the wiring prior to removal of the batteries. Did you do this?
There should be two wires (usually white about 16 ga.) that go to the batteries from the ignition. Did you perhaps miss those?
Some of the CAT motors placed the blow bye tube just next to the starter. The resulting oil residue can cause bad connections on the starter motor. The fix is a simple cleaning of the connections on the starter. Some folks have had the starter removed and serviced then reinstalled to this residue inside.
Hope this helps
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Welcome Trige! Not very qualified to help but there have been many posts here and other forums about the transmission panel. I keyed into one symptom you mentioned, the panel failing to light up. There is a fuse that sometimes blows under or around that shifter panel. If the transmission doesn't indicate that it is ready the engine won't start. That panel failing to light up at start is the usual symptom. Good luck.
Jerry
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I would double check that you reconnected the batteries correctly.
I'm sure you know that the Coach batteries are different from the Chassis batteries.
Do you have a "Start Boost" switch on the dash? (which connects the Coach and Chassis batteries together while pressing/holding the switch (sort of like using jumper cables from Coach to Chassis batteries) to provide extra power for cranking the engine.
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I would also like to mention that if you have no transmission panel lit up when turning on your key, that as Jerry stated, check your fuse under the transmission panel.
If that is blown replace it and see if your panel lights up. If so try to start your engine.
If that doesn't help at all recheck all the battery connections, its very easy to miss one or hook one up to the wrong post.
We are all here to lend a hand. Let us know if you need more help or if it started.
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Trige, also check your transmission ECM located in your service bay below the drivers seat and attached at the top of the bay. There is a multi-pin connecter that can come loose.
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Trige,
Check F4 in the electrical bay (below dvr seat). It is the Shift Panel Ign fuse. Shift panel must have power to send neutral signal to engine ECM which enables start circuit.
See attached list and diagram.
Steve
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Trige
First let me say welcome to the Beaver family and club. There are many more qualified here to answer your question than am I but lets get a start. (pun intended)
Shooting from the hip I am going to ask about the batteries. It is always suggested to take a few pictures of the wiring prior to removal of the batteries. Did you do this?
There should be two wires (usually white about 16 ga.) that go to the batteries from the ignition. Did you perhaps miss those?
Some of the CAT motors placed the blow bye tube just next to the starter. The resulting oil residue can cause bad connections on the starter motor. The fix is a simple cleaning of the connections on the starter. Some folks have had the starter removed and serviced then reinstalled to this residue inside.
Hope this helps
I did take pictures see attached and let me know if anything looks wrong. I'll consider your other suggestions. Thank you.
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I would double check that you reconnected the batteries correctly.
I'm sure you know that the Coach batteries are different from the Chassis batteries.
Do you have a "Start Boost" switch on the dash? (which connects the Coach and Chassis batteries together while pressing/holding the switch (sort of like using jumper cables from Coach to Chassis batteries) to provide extra power for cranking the engine.
Hi Mike, I have tried the boost with no luck.
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I would also like to mention that if you have no transmission panel lit up when turning on your key, that as Jerry stated, check your fuse under the transmission panel.
If that is blown replace it and see if your panel lights up. If so try to start your engine.
If that doesn't help at all recheck all the battery connections, its very easy to miss one or hook one up to the wrong post.
We are all here to lend a hand. Let us know if you need more help or if it started.
Hi LaMonte, I assume I have to remove the side panel under the transmission control to get to the fuse? Can you describe what the fuse box looks like and if there are multiple fuses how do I identify the correct one? Is it possible that this also has impact on why my Power Gear display does not light up either. See attached.
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Trige, also check your transmission ECM located in your service bay below the drivers seat and attached at the top of the bay. There is a multi-pin connecter that can come loose.
Hi Bryan, I'm not sure how to locate this without a picture or more details. I will try to find this connector but I'm a novice at this type of thing. Thanks.
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Trige,
Check F4 in the electrical bay (below dvr seat). It is the Shift Panel Ign fuse. Shift panel must have power to send neutral signal to engine ECM which enables start circuit.
See attached list and diagram.
Steve
Hi Steve,
I'll try to make it back over the coach later today. I printed the diagram and reference pages, thanks! Is it possible that this fuse also impacts other items on the panel? As I mentioned to another member, the Power Gear pad (I attached a picture to that post) does not light up either. If I remember correctly it can be turned on or off any time without the ignition switch being on.
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Other posters may be spot on with regards to the tranny panel needing to light, but I’d like to touch on one thing I noticed in the battery picture...is the picture from before removal or after reinstalling? If it’s after reinstalling, I’d start there and thoroughly clean both sides of all the cable ends to insure sound connections and current transfer. The starter is a major current draw and weak/dirty connections are the first things that link the batteries to the starter and need to be clean and firmly tight.
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Trige,
Not sure on where the Valid system gets its power. Verify you have 12v on one side of F4. If not, then verify that 12V is present on the 2 large lugs (chassis & house) on the right side of the panel, about 1/2 way up.
Steve
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Other posters may be spot on with regards to the tranny panel needing to light, but I’d like to touch on one thing I noticed in the battery picture...is the picture from before removal or after reinstalling? If it’s after reinstalling, I’d start there and thoroughly clean both sides of all the cable ends to insure sound connections and current transfer. The starter is a major current draw and weak/dirty connections are the first things that link the batteries to the starter and need to be clean and firmly tight.
Hi Neal,
The picture was prior to removal. I cleaned the cable ends and posts the best I could before re-installing. Thank you.
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I think I have found a problem and I sure hope it's the only problem. Inside the distribution box there are 6 large fuses, 4 on the right and 2 on the left of the relay. They all look good except one. Do you think this is the culprit? If so, here are a few questions. 1) Where do you buy them? 2) Should I buy an extra to keep on hand? 3) What precautions do I take removing and installing a replacement? Please let me know. Thanks
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Trige,
The 2 fuses in question feed the alternator and the printed circuit board in the front electrical bay. As I suggested earlier, check to see if you have 12v on the lug on the PCB. If not the fuse is bad (or check for 12v on both sides of the fuse).
See attached diagram. These diagrams are accessible by going to Private Members Only board and selecting the Coach Link post.
But, I don't think this is your problem as a lack of 12v to the PCB would have prevented the dash lights from doing their thing. Check F4 if you haven't already done so.
Steve
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Trige,
The 2 fuses in question feed the alternator and the printed circuit board in the front electrical bay. As I suggested earlier, check to see if you have 12v on the lug on the PCB. If not the fuse is bad (or check for 12v on both sides of the fuse).
See attached diagram. These diagrams are accessible by going to Private Members Only board and selecting the Coach Link post.
But, I don't think this is your problem as a lack of 12v to the PCB would have prevented the dash lights from doing their thing. Check F4 if you haven't already done so.
Steve
I did check the F4 fuse visually and it is good. I do not know how to check to see if I have 12v on the lug on the PCB or how to check for 12v on both sides of the fuse. Do I use a multimeter for this? If so, what setting for the multimeter and how do I connect it? I warned you ha. Thanks for the diagram!
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Trige,
You can use a multi-meter or a 12v probe. A multi-meter is best but a probe works also. Harbor Freight sells a meter for less that $10 that will work fine. https://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-digital-multimeter-90899.html Plug the red cord into V - ma and the black into com on the meter. Select DCV and 20. Put the black probe on the ground lug on the Printed Circuit Board (lower right as you look at it) and the red probe on the chassis lug (lower of the 2 lugs on the center right of the PCB). You should see 12-14 volts displayed. If not move the red probe to the upper (house) lug. you should see 12-14 v displayed. If you don't see 12v here there is a problem with the way the meter is set up.
Assuming you have 12v in both places, check the fuse. You can't tell if it is bad by looking at it unless you pull it and see that the link is blown. Either simply replace it or, using the meter, check for 12V on both sides of it by touching the red probe to the exposed metal tabs on both sides of the top of the fuse.
Another option is to use a voltage probe. https://www.amazon.com/Voltage-Continuity-Current-Tester-Indicator/dp/B01BGZ9XRS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1517271312&sr=8-5&keywords=voltage+probe
They are available at most auto parts and home improvement stores. Simple hook the clip to ground and touch the probe to where 12v should be. The indicator will illuminate if 12v is present.
Steve
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Trige,
You can use a multi-meter or a 12v probe. A multi-meter is best but a probe works also. Harbor Freight sells a meter for less that $10 that will work fine. https://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-digital-multimeter-90899.html Plug the red cord into V - ma and the black into com on the meter. Select DCV and 20. Put the black probe on the ground lug on the Printed Circuit Board (lower right as you look at it) and the red probe on the chassis lug (lower of the 2 lugs on the center right of the PCB). You should see 12-14 volts displayed. If not move the red probe to the upper (house) lug. you should see 12-14 v displayed. If you don't see 12v here there is a problem with the way the meter is set up.
Assuming you have 12v in both places, check the fuse. You can't tell if it is bad by looking at it unless you pull it and see that the link is blown. Either simply replace it or, using the meter, check for 12V on both sides of it by touching the red probe to the exposed metal tabs on both sides of the top of the fuse.
Another option is to use a voltage probe. https://www.amazon.com/Voltage-Continuity-Current-Tester-Indicator/dp/B01BGZ9XRS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1517271312&sr=8-5&keywords=voltage+probe
They are available at most auto parts and home improvement stores. Simple hook the clip to ground and touch the probe to where 12v should be. The indicator will illuminate if 12v is present.
Steve
I checked the voltage on both the chassis lug and house lug and they read around 12.5v. I also confirmed again the F4 fuse to be good by both pulling the fuse and seeing that the link is unbroken and also doing a continuity test on it with the multimeter. Additionally I replaced the ANL 200 fuse in the distribution box that was blown. Still no luck getting the transmission control pad or the valid system control pad (air bags) lights to come on and of course it still wouldn't start when I tried. I have not pulled the side panel off to look at the module under the transmission pad yet. I understand there's a battery and ignition fuse there. Thoughts on next step?
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Trige,
If the 200A fuse was blown, there must have been an arc when batteries were installed. So, you may have other problems as other fuses could have been blown. I'd check for fuses inside the console, both for the transmission panel and the Valid/Power gear system.
Steve
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Without a lighted N (neutral) on the transmission keypad, your engine will not start. The transmission must be alive and report an N (neutral) shift status to the engine. Yes, under the transmission keypad there is a black clam-shell box about 6"x8"x1" full of electronics along with an auto fuse or two. Check the fuse/s.
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Without a lighted N (neutral) on the transmission keypad, your engine will not start. The transmission must be alive and report an N (neutral) shift status to the engine. Yes, under the transmission keypad there is a black clam-shell box about 6"x8"x1" full of electronics along with an auto fuse or two. Check the fuse/s.
I did have a spark when I re-installed the batteries. I can't find the VIM. I removed both side panels under the keypad and its not there. Its not in the electrical bay either. Someone said it may be in the dash but I haven't looked. I also heard it may not have one and gone to multiplex wiring instead?? I sure would like to know where this thing is or if my coach even has one. I'm heading back over the coach around 10am EST to check for more potential blown fuses in the electrical bay and the distribution box.
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Trige,
If the 200A fuse was blown, there must have been an arc when batteries were installed. So, you may have other problems as other fuses could have been blown. I'd check for fuses inside the console, both for the transmission panel and the Valid/Power gear system.
Steve
Based on the tests you've had me do, are you convinced its not a battery or ground issue? I don't know enough to answer that.
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I am not sure if this can happen with the newer coaches but I shut my Marquis off in gear. When I went to restart it, just a click. I had to crawl under the coach and put the transmission in neutral and it started. I don't think I'm supposed to be able to shut it off in gear, but it would not restart until moved the air actuated lever on the side of the transmission into the neutral position.
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I am not sure if this can happen with the newer coaches but I shut my Marquis off in gear. When I went to restart it, just a click. I had to crawl under the coach and put the transmission in neutral and it started. I don't think I'm supposed to be able to shut it off in gear, but it would not restart until moved the air actuated lever on the side of the transmission into the neutral position.
I had it started where its sitting a few weeks ago. Then I started having the battery problems so I took the batteries out to have them charged and put them back in, the coach has never moved during the whole process so my situation is different. Thanks Keith.
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Trige,
If you read between 12 and 14V on your meter when measuring chassis voltage at the electrical bay PCB (under dvrs positions) your power and ground are probably OK.
Steve
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Well, I heard the most beautiful diesel engine ever running a short time ago. Yes, the mystery has been solved. After replacing about a half dozen cooked fuses I found the culprit in the rear distribution box. It was a 15a fuse called VEC-2 Batt Transmission on the bottom left of the panel. Once I replaced the fuse, a TCM light on the panel lit up and a short walk to the drivers seat revealed the transmission control pad was lit! So the final results are...I replaced blown electrical bay fuses F10, F43, F45, F46, and F81. F46 got the Valid system to fire back up, and F43/F45 eliminated the fault code I was getting on it. In the rear distribution box I replaced the far left ANL 200a fuse and the VEC-2 fuse. This coach does not have the VIM (Allison Transmission Box) that we were searching for.
I'd like to thank you all on the forum for the interest and comments with my situation. You have taught me a lot. Also thanks to Beaver Coach Sales for their support. It's comforting to have a community of great folks!
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Happy you got it finally. It is nice when they start right up.....
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For anybody on this thread, What could have Caused All The Fuses TO Blow?
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Pat,
That usually happens from reverse polarity. Just a momentary touch from the wrong cable on a battery post is all that it takes. You will get a spark and a lot of blown fuses, but the fuses protect the circuits from major damage in most, but not all cases. Therefore, be very careful in battery installation.
Gerald
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Most likely an arc occurred when the batteries were replaced or ground was applied to a chassis battery positive cable after the hookup. Either can cause very high current to be present throughout the system, enough to blow a 200A fuse. No way to predict what fuses will blow, making trouble shooting tough.
Moral; Be VERY careful when changing our batteries!
Steve
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Most likely an arc occurred when the batteries were replaced or ground was applied to a chassis battery positive cable after the hookup. Either can cause very high current to be present throughout the system, enough to blow a 200A fuse. No way to predict what fuses will blow, making trouble shooting tough.
Moral; Be VERY careful when changing our batteries!
Steve
Added note: Make sure your main coach battery switches are in the off position. I tape up the ends of the coach main negative cables, it is real easy to hit a positive terminal with all cabling with our batteries.
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I have worked on Golf cart batteries and Joy mining equipment batteries and emergency generating systems for 43 years. This is Motor home number 5 for my wife and I . When I work on the batteries I put tight fitting rubber hose over the bare ends. I use red for the positive and black for the negative. I slip the rubber on as soon as each wire is removed. I put a piece of red electrical tape by the positive post on the battery. This is how I keep my wires and proper polarity in order. Be careful a small DC battery can produce very high currents (amps) and burn and start fires very fast.